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Proposal to change the way Rankings work

AnariaAnaria ✭✭✭ - DistinguishedMember Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
As things currently stand, Rankings give people a great deal of advantageous meta-game information that their characters simply would not have access to within the context of the game world. 

Rankings seamonsters for example tells people within a few small areas exactly where a ship is at any given time. Rankings mining (playername) can tell them that a particular player has active mines and sometimes even allow them to make educated guesses about the troop/miner ratios. Even ranking Fishing tells you that certain people are out on the water, regardless of gems, veils and com screens. 

While I would love an opt-out option to this purely OOC scoreboard, I realize that will probably not be allowed. So instead I propose that the information for these things be updated only at Seranade each day, or better yet at random intervals every couple days, instead of having it be a more or less a tick for tick counter that eliminates the need to search out enemies.
Tagged:
Rangor
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Comments

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This seems pretty self-serving considering you just got attacked while seamonstering. Don't see a reason to change it, and it's not like you can't just manually check where someone is anyway.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't mind either way, but it is just as self-serving to not want it changed because it allows you to know what people are doing. Specially if said people have a gem or is otherwise comscreened or something and thus not normally visible to the wider world.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    AnariaRangorElowin
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There's a reason to not want it changed: because people like seeing their numbers go up in real time. When I'm working on a ranking I like to check it often, and I don't want that to just update once a RL day because then I don't know how much progress I'm making as I'm doing it.

    Also, I don't really need nor did I have to use this to figure out that someone might be seamonstering in one of the few areas where you can find ships usually? Like that's the last reason I'd care about for changing it.
    Shirszae
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I will admit, I do like seeing my ship's ranking go up everytime I kill a monster >.>

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ranking xp don't show someone's % climbing. Rankings without details plz.
    image
    JeslynTaeltwo
  • GrandueGrandue ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ain't broke. Don't fix. 
    Aesgar
  • GreysGreys ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The rankings don't do anything mechanically so its just bragging rights. Personally, I find the average level of the seamonster more of a thing to brag about. In either case, its just a tracker, I don't see it as something we want the designers spending a lot of time on it rather than developing new content and other things that have real impact for the game. If it bothers you that much, just ignore it.

  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Greys said:
    The rankings don't do anything mechanically so its just bragging rights. Personally, I find the average level of the seamonster more of a thing to brag about. In either case, its just a tracker, I don't see it as something we want the designers spending a lot of time on it rather than developing new content and other things that have real impact for the game. If it bothers you that much, just ignore it.

    Hard to ignore if someone's using the data to know where you are, how well defended your mine is and take advantage/hunt/kill you with the data.
    image
    Anaria
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,798 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Except they're not, Rangor. The way Proficy checks how well defended a mine is is by checking the % finished on a new day tick. Has nothing to do with rankings. And it's also common knowledge that Anaria only fights in the kiddie pools, pools of which everyone knows the location. It's seriously not hard to find her. This is knee-jerk speculation about something stupid. Move along

  • ValkynValkyn ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    Except they're not, Rangor. The way Proficy checks how well defended a mine is is by checking the % finished on a new day tick. Has nothing to do with rankings. And it's also common knowledge that Anaria only fights in the kiddie pools, pools of which everyone knows the location. It's seriously not hard to find her. This is knee-jerk speculation about something stupid. Move along

    He'll be checking the amount of comms their rankings mining increases by. Mines almost never change by % each day, unless you're talking a large mine on coal.

  • GoryllinGoryllin ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I don't know the OP. I just know that I see a lot of people not liking that person. And from an outside observers perception, it really seems like the overwhelming negative response is more to the OP than to the idea. It does seem weird to me to have a rankings list provide so much information that can be used against the person being ranked.
    ElowinAnaria
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2016
    Daily updates to the rankings seamonsters list?


    Huh. Neat.
  • ValkynValkyn ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I like the rankings. Would be fine with daily updates though. 

  • TarausTaraus The Gypsy WindMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure it's fine as-is, and the resulting protests stem more from individuals who do not wholly understand and/or accept the nature of "actions have consequences", particularly those actions with outcomes unfavourable to the recipient.

    Yes, I completely understand how & why the variety of rankings systems could leave people in what they perceive as an "unfair" situation. However, consider the bigger picture. Are you reaping what you've sown?

    As its been said time and time again, Achaea is a large-spanning world, and certain avenues and areas of it are dangerous, and do involve risks. I grow frustrated everytime I see people trying to mitigate and/or limit the way they're actually exposed to those risks.

    Also, referring to it as an OOC scoreboard is just silly, because it's certainly not. It's rating and ranking things that are happening entirely IC. Simply because it's globally available instantly doesn't mean it doesn't fit within our fantasy realm - otherwise the same logic would apply to things like org channels, or the logs, or the entirety of the realms is interconnected in a metaphysical, telepathic network that lets us communicate and access information on demand.

  • KezKez ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    My product rates might be a bit off by now because it's been a while since I mined, but ...

    Sometimes the numbers look too big. Just means the miners hit the bonus where they pulled extra product. It's not too frequent though. I only see 2 definite bonuses in this list and a few possible ones. Running it again on the next day would sort it all out. I see 2 probably collapsing mines. Comparing it to previous day would confirm if they are and give up the info about how well defended the mine is. Great time to attack since they won't fully collapse until 10-15 minutes after this report can be pulled. Can also guess whether someone is likely to be using high or low level defenders based on how far from a multiple of 20 their miners are at compared to how much mining they've done. I think it is too much information. I emailed Sarapis with a display like this in the first week or two of mining and he said he was going to obscure the numbers in the rankings, but since then I've assumed he either forgot or changed his mind.

    Carbon report.
    Coal report.
    Yae mined 790 Coal today using about 395 miners.
    Regi mined 200 Coal today using about 100 miners.
    Naheka mined 400 Coal today using about 200 miners.
    Aerek mined 72 Coal today using about 36 miners.
    Majin mined 40 Coal today using about 20 miners.
    Eivan mined 572 Coal today using about 286 miners.
    Allene mined 490 Coal today using about 245 miners.
    Artanis mined 40 Coal today using about 20 miners.
    Valkyn mined 584 Coal today using about 292 miners.
    Goldore report.
    Medi mined 17 Goldore today using about 170 miners.
    Bronislav mined 31 Goldore today using about 310 miners.
    Impureice report.
    Ironore report.
    Majin mined 4 Ironore today using about 13 miners.
    Jed mined 68 Ironore today using about 227 miners.
    Aegoth mined 30 Ironore today using about 100 miners.
    Epifania mined 36 Ironore today using about 120 miners.
    Medi mined 35 Ironore today using about 117 miners.
    Dochitha mined 34 Ironore today using about 113 miners.
    Artanis mined 12 Ironore today using about 40 miners.
    Greys mined 324 Ironore today using about 1080 miners.
    Platinumore report.
    Rawbone report.
    Rawgems report.
    Rawobsidian report.
    Proficy mined 106 Rawobsidian today using about 159 miners.
    Aegoth mined 66 Rawobsidian today using about 99 miners.
    Rawstone report.
    Bambi mined 32 Rawstone today using about 78 miners.
    Killian mined 49 Rawstone today using about 119 miners.
    Regi mined 41 Rawstone today using about 100 miners.
    Saeva mined 81 Rawstone today using about 197 miners.
    Aluciana mined 113 Rawstone today using about 275 miners.
    Aerek mined 33 Rawstone today using about 80 miners.
    Eivan mined 124 Rawstone today using about 302 miners.
    Epifania mined 139 Rawstone today using about 338 miners.
    Allene mined 131 Rawstone today using about 319 miners.
    Isvariel mined 82 Rawstone today using about 200 miners.
    Laytron mined 278 Rawstone today using about 676 miners.
    Rangor mined 83 Rawstone today using about 202 miners.
    Valkyn mined 139 Rawstone today using about 338 miners.
    Silverore report.
    Proficy mined 42 Silverore today using about 138 miners.
    Saeva mined 19 Silverore today using about 62 miners.

    Mining report for Aegoth.
    I think Aegoth has about 100 miners dedicated to IronOre.
    I think Aegoth has about 99 miners dedicated to RawObsidian.
    AnariaRangor
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well that's...specific...
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    YaeAnaria
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I used 62 miners for 19 silverore? That seems absurd! Something sounds fishy to me.


  • KezKez ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kez said:
    My product rates might be a bit off by now because it's been a while since I mined, but ...

  • AnariaAnaria ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Taraus said:
    Pretty sure it's fine as-is, and the resulting protests stem more from individuals who do not wholly understand and/or accept the nature of "actions have consequences", particularly those actions with outcomes unfavourable to the recipient.

    Yes, I completely understand how & why the variety of rankings systems could leave people in what they perceive as an "unfair" situation. However, consider the bigger picture. Are you reaping what you've sown?

    As its been said time and time again, Achaea is a large-spanning world, and certain avenues and areas of it are dangerous, and do involve risks. I grow frustrated everytime I see people trying to mitigate and/or limit the way they're actually exposed to those risks.

    Also, referring to it as an OOC scoreboard is just silly, because it's certainly not. It's rating and ranking things that are happening entirely IC. Simply because it's globally available instantly doesn't mean it doesn't fit within our fantasy realm - otherwise the same logic would apply to things like org channels, or the logs, or the entirety of the realms is interconnected in a metaphysical, telepathic network that lets us communicate and access information on demand.
    Who in the context of the game world is peeking into every mine, every minute, and recording how much those mines produce? Who is out on the oceans in a dingy jotting down every seamonster kill, every fish caught? And where on Achaea are these rankings posted that adventurers and denizens can read them? The rankings system is no more immersive than the score in a game of Donkey Kong. The post system has news rooms. Org channels are indeed a telepathic network. These things have a context within the story of the world.

    I am not calling for the removal of rankings. However their up-to-the-minute nature does provide meta game information that removes any need to scout for your enemies and gives attackers a timing advantage. Who needs a black flare when you can see the seamonster counter go up and know within 1-4 areas where a ship is? Sure does make it easy to gather a crew and attack whenever it is convenient for the attackers, without all that bother of having to sail around for an hour or two and potentially get spotted and reported by other enemy ships. 

    Want to keep someone out of mining by attacking them every time they start up a mine? Scouting around every couple hours to see if they have established somewhere would take considerable time and effort. Why do the work when Rankings Mining (player) will tell you exactly what type of mines they have active, if any, just by watching the numbers change.

    I feel like your post was ad hominem. I have not complained about being attacked. I'm proposing a change to how an aspect of the coding works that I believe is being exploited to side step the need to scout for enemies and to give a tremendous convenience to any attacking side that is unwarranted. 
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anaria said:
    Taraus said:
    Pretty sure it's fine as-is, and the resulting protests stem more from individuals who do not wholly understand and/or accept the nature of "actions have consequences", particularly those actions with outcomes unfavourable to the recipient.

    Yes, I completely understand how & why the variety of rankings systems could leave people in what they perceive as an "unfair" situation. However, consider the bigger picture. Are you reaping what you've sown?

    As its been said time and time again, Achaea is a large-spanning world, and certain avenues and areas of it are dangerous, and do involve risks. I grow frustrated everytime I see people trying to mitigate and/or limit the way they're actually exposed to those risks.

    Also, referring to it as an OOC scoreboard is just silly, because it's certainly not. It's rating and ranking things that are happening entirely IC. Simply because it's globally available instantly doesn't mean it doesn't fit within our fantasy realm - otherwise the same logic would apply to things like org channels, or the logs, or the entirety of the realms is interconnected in a metaphysical, telepathic network that lets us communicate and access information on demand.
    Who in the context of the game world is peeking into every mine, every minute, and recording how much those mines produce? Who is out on the oceans in a dingy jotting down every seamonster kill, every fish caught? And where on Achaea are these rankings posted that adventurers and denizens can read them?
           

    Anaria
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you know so few sea monsters areas that it's that obvious when you kill one, you should probably explore more.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • ValkynValkyn ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kez said:
    My product rates might be a bit off by now because it's been a while since I mined, but ...

    Sometimes the numbers look too big. Just means the miners hit the bonus where they pulled extra product. It's not too frequent though. I only see 2 definite bonuses in this list and a few possible ones. Running it again on the next day would sort it all out. I see 2 probably collapsing mines. Comparing it to previous day would confirm if they are and give up the info about how well defended the mine is. Great time to attack since they won't fully collapse until 10-15 minutes after this report can be pulled. Can also guess whether someone is likely to be using high or low level defenders based on how far from a multiple of 20 their miners are at compared to how much mining they've done. I think it is too much information. I emailed Sarapis with a display like this in the first week or two of mining and he said he was going to obscure the numbers in the rankings, but since then I've assumed he either forgot or changed his mind.

    Carbon report.
    Coal report.
    Yae mined 790 Coal today using about 395 miners.
    Regi mined 200 Coal today using about 100 miners.
    Naheka mined 400 Coal today using about 200 miners.
    Aerek mined 72 Coal today using about 36 miners.
    Majin mined 40 Coal today using about 20 miners.
    Eivan mined 572 Coal today using about 286 miners.
    Allene mined 490 Coal today using about 245 miners.
    Artanis mined 40 Coal today using about 20 miners.
    Valkyn mined 584 Coal today using about 292 miners.
    Goldore report.
    Medi mined 17 Goldore today using about 170 miners.
    Bronislav mined 31 Goldore today using about 310 miners.
    Impureice report.
    Ironore report.
    Majin mined 4 Ironore today using about 13 miners.
    Jed mined 68 Ironore today using about 227 miners.
    Aegoth mined 30 Ironore today using about 100 miners.
    Epifania mined 36 Ironore today using about 120 miners.
    Medi mined 35 Ironore today using about 117 miners.
    Dochitha mined 34 Ironore today using about 113 miners.
    Artanis mined 12 Ironore today using about 40 miners.
    Greys mined 324 Ironore today using about 1080 miners.
    Platinumore report.
    Rawbone report.
    Rawgems report.
    Rawobsidian report.
    Proficy mined 106 Rawobsidian today using about 159 miners.
    Aegoth mined 66 Rawobsidian today using about 99 miners.
    Rawstone report.
    Bambi mined 32 Rawstone today using about 78 miners.
    Killian mined 49 Rawstone today using about 119 miners.
    Regi mined 41 Rawstone today using about 100 miners.
    Saeva mined 81 Rawstone today using about 197 miners.
    Aluciana mined 113 Rawstone today using about 275 miners.
    Aerek mined 33 Rawstone today using about 80 miners.
    Eivan mined 124 Rawstone today using about 302 miners.
    Epifania mined 139 Rawstone today using about 338 miners.
    Allene mined 131 Rawstone today using about 319 miners.
    Isvariel mined 82 Rawstone today using about 200 miners.
    Laytron mined 278 Rawstone today using about 676 miners.
    Rangor mined 83 Rawstone today using about 202 miners.
    Valkyn mined 139 Rawstone today using about 338 miners.
    Silverore report.
    Proficy mined 42 Silverore today using about 138 miners.
    Saeva mined 19 Silverore today using about 62 miners.

    Mining report for Aegoth.
    I think Aegoth has about 100 miners dedicated to IronOre.
    I think Aegoth has about 99 miners dedicated to RawObsidian.
    Okay, that seems kinda OTT, but how are those miner numbers worked out? If 280 is the max miners in a large mine, how are you getting numbers of 1000+?

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,374 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Gonna have to say sea monster rankings and mining rankings updating in real time can be used to orchestrate attacks.

    Sea monsters it's rather easy. Note a person numbers killed and average level. Check back ever few minutes. If it changes do a calculation, you've narrowed where they are to 2-3 areas.

    Mining, check if their total is going up. Then run about frantically reading signs till you find their mines.

    Fishing, Xp, explorer rank not so easy. Unless it's the Sarapin or you catch a record for that year it doesn't update every fish you catch. And it only says 'your fishing' and doesn't really narrow down locales.
    Anaria
  • KezKez ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Valkyn said:
    Kez said:

    Sometimes the numbers look too big. Just means the miners hit the bonus where they pulled extra product. It's not too frequent though. 
    Okay, that seems kinda OTT, but how are those miner numbers worked out? If 280 is the max miners in a large mine, how are you getting numbers of 1000+?
    Outdated product rates (how much ore comes out per miner) can contribute but mostly it comes from miner bonuses. When they get higher in levels they can pull another 1 whole product per miner, so coal would normally pull 2 per, but the bonus hits and they pull 3 per. Ores have much lower rates but still pull 1 whole extra, so a hundred miners might look like a thousand. I wasn't going to calculate that though when I could just compare it to the previous or next hour's report.
  • ValkynValkyn ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 734 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Hmm okay. Yeah I think that's not great if people are mining the data like that and using it to conduct assaults.

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,054 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Most of the big time miners were simultaneously data mining (hurhur) to get a bigger pool of numbers so they could calculate mining rates etc for their profit ratios. When I was still doing real mining, I'd get a lot of questions from the big names trying to work out how things worked. Which I thought was pretty slick, even if it's something I couldn't/wouldn't want to manage. Just sad that it also allowed you to work out potentially unguarded mines. 


  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,084 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I've definitely seen that kind of data used for mine attacks (not by anyone I know of, mind, I've just heard of the information in the past), but I can say at least for us, we didn't use that information to go after you at sea, Anaria. You were on qwho but not on land, and you spend a great deal of time fighting the little sea monsters - pretty much everyone knows that. We were out sailing for a good bit before we stumbled on you.

    I've never really thought to look to rankings for a real-time check of what anyone is doing, and I don't think that's a common thing to refer to for the majority of us.
               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,054 @@ - Legendary Achaean

                          


    MelodieShirszae
  • AnariaAnaria ✭✭✭ - Distinguished Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2016
    Melodie said:
    I've definitely seen that kind of data used for mine attacks (not by anyone I know of, mind, I've just heard of the information in the past), but I can say at least for us, we didn't use that information to go after you at sea, Anaria. You were on qwho but not on land, and you spend a great deal of time fighting the little sea monsters - pretty much everyone knows that. We were out sailing for a good bit before we stumbled on you.

    I've never really thought to look to rankings for a real-time check of what anyone is doing, and I don't think that's a common thing to refer to for the majority of us.
    If you say so, I believe you. That being said though, the reason everyone knows I spend so much time hunting the little monsters is because of the rankings :)

    It is unfortunate that a degree of in-game factionalism seems to be bleeding onto the forum in terms of how we are addressing these mechanics and I do regret that there is this level of OOC animosity that seems to be at play whenever we discuss these issues. I actually had a tremendous amount of fun in our 40 minute long naval battle. Contrary to what your side seems to think you did have me on the ropes quite a few times. Having Mhaldor as an enemy to fight has given my experience on Achaea a focus I could not find any other way. Thank you for being my bad guy.
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