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Should Anathema/Excommunication be player-controlled abilities?
Aodfionn
Seattle, WA
I've been curious as to where people stand on this - so, please, vote and state why you feel the way you do.
For those newer members, Anathema and Excommunication are two abilities that effectively sever your ability to regain life essence (for Necromancers) or devotion (for Devotion users). Currently, both of these powers are wielded by mortal characters. Anathema can be severed/restored by the mortal in charge of it, but Excommunication requires Aurora and Deucalion to manually go in and restore it.
For those newer members, Anathema and Excommunication are two abilities that effectively sever your ability to regain life essence (for Necromancers) or devotion (for Devotion users). Currently, both of these powers are wielded by mortal characters. Anathema can be severed/restored by the mortal in charge of it, but Excommunication requires Aurora and Deucalion to manually go in and restore it.
Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
1
Comments
For what my own two cents are worth, I'm of a mind that the Deacon/Dread Ecclair should both be able to restore Necro/Devo, rather than rely on a system where I have to essentially just pray that I have an active divine forever.
EDIT: Though I agree that Deacon should be able to restore Devo
I think the current system, while players naturally have their flaws, is fine. (It's not like gods aren't people with flaws, too, so there would still be contention over the subject) It's the complete-and-utter shutout of these abilities, preventing Devotion/Essence gain from all sources that inevitably leaves you at 0%, that makes them regrettable, and is really the reason that they stir such ire. If Excomm/Anathema simply removed your -daily- regeneration of resources, (but you could still get it in little bits through the other means) that would still be crippling, something no character would want to happen, but would not remove, completely, your ability to play a class you loved. Instead a whole new aspect of the class, having to covet and conserve your Essence/Devotion, becomes front and center in your life, as you spend your days with the heretic brand. That's interesting!
In the real world, Martin Luther was "excommunicated" but remained in the clergy and went on to become a very compelling "character" in history; Excommunication didn't force him to -actually- give up his faith. In a more IC example, Flair went against Eris and would have absolutely been "excommunicated" if Occultists had that option, but because they didn't have a nuclear option, he was free to play a compelling character in our history, as an oucast of his class. But current Excomm/Anathema doesn't allow this to happen. It's a forced quit class;agree. You -cannot- continue playing that class and have any reasonable ability to enjoy the game unless you are a complete and total non-combatant that also hates hunting. There's just nothing you can do except sit and talk, until you quit your class and move on. (Ask me how I know.)
In a roleplaying game, that is the antithesis of a compelling story. That is where compelling stories get hauled out back and shot. That's selling a car and saying "You can have it in any color you want, as long as it's grey." Sure, you can argue there's IC canon that supports it, and sure, you can argue that "most" people wouldn't be compelling characters, but that means you think you have the objective and unbiased judgment of what is and isn't a compelling story. That's purely a matter of opinion, and I don't think anyone's opinion, god or otherwise, should be able to completely remove a skill unless we're in formal Admin punishment territory.
TL:DR Excomm/Anathema is a good thing, but the totality of it is its largest flaw. It shouldn't remove all Essence/Devotion access, you should be able to continue to play a crippled version of that class, as was possible in the old days. (Yes, the complete loss is a relatively new thing.)
P.S. If it can be done by players, Excommunication obviously should mirror Anathema in that it can be player reversed. No idea why that difference still exists after all these years.
This would sorta be like making excom and antheama an affliction or illness.
Blocking daily regen is completely legit, that's a crippling penalty to actually using your Devotion/Necromancy stuff. The "regen" from Cannibalism/Vivisect/Catharsis and Immolate/Damnation/Absolve is a small amount in the grand scheme, and so could still be allowed. "Big" regens like Rite of Prayer/Exterminate could still be blocked, since those could effectively recharge someone and shrug off the consequences in the right circumstances. Finding the right balance means that an Excommed player could keep their class, but would have to "save up" Devotion/Essence and choose carefully when to use it, with the "big" abilities like Force, spammed Rites/Ghands, Soulcage (The things that people don't want Excommed/Anathema'ed folks to have) would be pretty impossible to actually use. Some specific abilities could/should be made unavailable: Nirvana/Inferno, Deliver/Transverse, Angel Sacrifice/Demon Fury, give Spiritshields a small Devotion cost, maybe Succor so that distance healing could be removed without the Priest losing all of Healing, etc.
I spent 6 months playing/fighting as an Excomm'ed Paladin, and at most I could "afford" to use Inspiration in some fights, and only used anything else if it really mattered. It was fun, in a way, I got to be a little smug when I won fights as a Paladin using 1 skill, (Though the state of combat balance would probably make any success I had then impossible now) and I took some pride in bearing my consequences and showing that my Excomm resulted from closely-kept character consistency, not just in-the-moment petulance toward Team Good. I had my character, and was willing to bear the consequences to tell his story. I had intentions to stay Paladin as long as I possibly could, politics actually forced me into Runewarden while I still had about 37% left, but with the totality of Excomm, hitting 0% was inevitable, and then I would eventually be forced to change if I wanted to keep fighting/hunting/playing.
I firmly believe that if Excommunication/Anathema is a roleplay-based penalty, then it is 100% possible to find a balance between crippling penalties that no one would want, but that do not remove a player's class outright, because I think that's a 100% valid line of RP should a character choose to pursue it knowing the consequences. Unfortunately, I think the Admin view Excomm as more of an administrative punishment that happens to be RP-justified, and if that's the case, then it should probably mirror Occultist "excomm", where only the Gods can do it, and only to the absolute worst abusers.
I've not actually compared the numbers, but in general, necros have a easier-to-gain-but-easier-to-lose limit, while devotionists have a much longer-standing pool that is much, much slower (and harder) to refill. I think in the end, it mostly balances out. Maybe a minor tweak to effect necro more firmly, but nothing major I think.
I had a pretty long post I wanted to get out, but I think Aerek covered it for the most part. Instead, I'll paste part of an email I sent to Tecton at the end of January in 2013, which was just a few weeks after my first excommunication, that included some of my thoughts and research into a rarely-glimpsed subject:
"Although an unfortunate amount of excommunications, both Good and Evil, happen due to characters who just fall out of line very blatantly, a few happen now and again because of legitimate role playing reasons. I would like to think my case is one of those (although I will admit parts of it is due to a few bad decisions as a player that I now just have to deal with). With this change [referencing the added mechanical change that you use a little devo/necro to summon angel/baalzadeen], you not only render one skill (eventually) completely unusable, but most of two skills completely gone. I feel this is too far, from a player's standpoint.
I have not done a similar examination of Apostasy/Necromancy yet, but I could if there's interest in the numbers.
That email was sent over three years ago (holy fuck has it really been that long now?), but unfortunately I never got a return response. This is an issue I still continue to feel very strongly about, even with my situation well behind me. At the very least, as Aerek states, there needs to be a clarification: If this is meant to be an administrative punishment that happens to have some roleplay flavor, then make it a God-only thing. If this is meant be an actual, true roleplay consequence, then I believe some adjustments truly need to be made, the first of those having both head mortals being able to both punish and redeem, but also other tweaks.
Edit: I want to say from my own experiences that it should be and is a roleplay-based consequence, but sometimes I'm not really sure what the admin are driving at in regards how everything plays out. Either way, it should be resolved.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
"Have you seen this Mad God? Reward of 9001 gold, be sure to check the Divine Asylum near you!"
Having a Deacon should simply exist to streamline the process, from a mechanics standpoint; Tecton doesn't have the time or energy to be putting into essentially being the last line of 'RP police' for Team Good. Asking him to take on the entirety of it doesn't make any logical sense, as long as there exist players/admins who are more devoted to that area.
Tecton could just do the entirety of it now; doesn't mean it's not good to delegate this kind of stuff, and in this instance, all I'm proposing is that we add in an extra layer of 'people who can help fix a problem,' to bring us in line with another faction that has similar mechanics.
On one level, what you would largely experience is inconvenience. Your abilities may random fail, or you may randomly get backlash from your own angel/baalz and your devo/essence regen is slowed to a trickle. Ideally you may still function as a devo/necro user, but you're not the most useful person around in a pinch. This could be reserved for those borderline heretic cases of rogue priests who hang out with the 'wrong crowd'. You could probably call it more like 'censured' or something.
On the other level, it would be more like the current excommunication where your class is effectively killed. This would probably be reserved only for people who are outright defying the Bloodsworn/Team Good by joining in raids, getting citizened by a blatantly enemy city (if said city will even take them).
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
If it's made reversible, it becomes tempting to use it as a temporary punishment. That takes a lot away from the impact of what is one of the most impactful things in the game (particularly one of the most impactful player-controlled things) and is also likely to lead to lame "I'm excomming you for a week as a warning" stuff, which is no fun.
On the other hand, it certainly should be possible to get an excommunication reversed. I don't know how doable it is right now, especially when the relevant factional gods are domant, but it certainly should be possible. And given that the Deacon/Dread Eclair are already trusted to use excommunication/anathema with good judgement, maybe it would work well to just say "hey, don't use this as a temporary punishment" and trust them with reversal too.
As for things like "lesser" excommunication, I really, really dislike that idea. The current system makes excommunication very dramatic and its severity means that it's reserved for large of repeated transgressions. I don't think having a form of lesser excommunication would be a positive thing. The relevant factional orgs can already enact punishments through other methods, and I think it's a good thing that rogues exist in a sort of limbo where they have to toe the line because they can get away with more without facing lesser punishments, but they still can't go too far.
I disagree very strongly that excommunication/anathema should be balanced around the legitimacy of roleplaying an excommunicated/anathamatized character. While that sounds nice in theory, the point of excommunication/anathema is to ensure that the ideological classes stay true to their ideology and fiction. If you allow people to play excommunicated priests in a meaningful ways, there are going to be a lot of excommunicated priests. It's already a popular class and people have spoken at length for years about how it's a mechanically desirable class too. And there's just no way to keep the classes grounded like this while making excommunication/anathema a "viable choice" - either it's balanced so excommunication/anathema isn't that big a penalty and then there's nothing ensuring that the class's population stays true to its fiction, or it's balanced so excommunication/anathema is a big penalty and people don't feel like it's mechanically viable (the current situation). The mechanical viability of the class and the ability of excommunication/anathema to ensure adherence to the fiction are directly opposed. I don't think you can have it both ways.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
It's also not like people can randomly take your class skills for no reason. You don't just play Priest and hope the Deacon doesn't throw a dart at your name. If the Deacon is excommunicating you, it's because you've egregriously violated the blindingly obvious factional roleplaying restrictions. They're not stealing $100 from you, you're giving away $100. They're just the ones who collect it from you.
Some classes have roleplaying restrictions. Some classes don't have ents. Some classes don't have ranged attacks. Not every class has to be attractive to every player. If you don't want to deal with ents, don't play a class with ents. If you don't want to deal with roleplaying restrictions, don't play a class with roleplaying restrictions. The roleplaying restrictions don't need to be lifted in the same way that the ents don't need to be taken away to attract the people who don't like managing ents.
I have zero interest in playing a Druid. That doesn't mean the Druid class shouldn't exist.
Do you really, seriously wish you could play an Evil character with Devotion, no matter how completely and totally nonsensical that is?
And that's significantly understating the real problem by individualising it. In reality, if you could be an Evil devotionist, a huge proportion of devotionists would be Evil - both because they're mechanically attractive classes and because a lot of people love the idea of playing that kind of special snowflake using-the-powers-of-Good-for-Evil thing.