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Thanks! As I suspected:
*Hyphens. Often overused, and used incorrectly! General guidelines: Yes in words, e.g. passer-by. No as a replacement for a comma e.g. "A gold rose blossoms on the face of the ring - shining lustrously in any available light"
And for the main discussion at hand:
*Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Also, to preemptively answer the "what about this very specific example I have?" or "but this one thing I submitted was rejected" or "but on NDS PUBLIC there is this thing, so why is mine denied?!?" questions, please defer to the two statements at the very top of the page!
Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...
Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...
Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough.
Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...
Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough.
Ah yes, I added that (as that was the response I got). Feel free to nuke it now that it's been clarified.
Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...
Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough.
Ah yes, I added that (as that was the response I got). Feel free to nuke it now that it's been clarified.
I don't know how to edit those things and am afraid of screwing it up. But for all I know, it could be more simple than I am thinking it is. Hopefully someone who knows how will get around to it.
Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...
Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?
The bottom one in your quote looks to be player added, and should be removed! The top should be clear enough.
Ah yes, I added that (as that was the response I got). Feel free to nuke it now that it's been clarified.
I don't know how to edit those things and am afraid of screwing it up. But for all I know, it could be more simple than I am thinking it is. Hopefully someone who knows how will get around to it.
No words that would require an accent in any way, including souffle and etc, since accents cannot be reproduced in Achaea.
I just tried this. Not that I did it just to try or anything. Had the almost-finished sketch sitting in my inventory long enough that it was about to decay, so I finished the taste/smell and submitted it.
You read what is written on an elegant white letter:
The craft guild has returned your proposed sketch (enclosed in this letter) for further revisions. The following comments were made of the sketch:
Unfortunately, we no longer allow words that require an accent. You could substitute jalapeno with pepper though, and describe the pepper without using the name.
I wonder if they're going to change the word protege. Master and apprentice? I'm not whining, just wondering. In the past I was always told that things that can't be produced or wouldn't look good in achaea are adjusted to what works rather than ruled out. Spaced hyphens for emdashes, single-spaced sentences, ignoring accents, and so on.
It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
Putting out notices/updates when policies change or someone new takes over is a great idea, for both crafting and customization guidelines. You don't have to give us reasons why or tell us who the new person in charge is, we just need to know when the rules change. I know all too well it is tempting and convenient to shift stances
quietly and let the world catch up on its own, but it's a small
community and people talk, and that kind of confusion and frustration
builds quickly into feedback loops.
-- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
I agree. It's incredibly frustrating. I asked that mozzarella and alfredo be added to the "not allowed" list at the bottom of HELP CRAFTING GUIDELINES, and was told to "refer to #9" in that list.
Putting out notices/updates when policies change or someone new takes over is a great idea, for both crafting and customization guidelines. You don't have to give us reasons why or tell us who the new person in charge is, we just need to know when the rules change. I know all too well it is tempting and convenient to shift stances
quietly and let the world catch up on its own, but it's a small
community and people talk, and that kind of confusion and frustration
builds quickly into feedback loops.
I think it is safe to say, across the board, we would love to be able to instantly update every single file the moment something changes! Alas, when there is limited resources, we need to choose what is the biggest priority. However, this leads me to the next comment...
It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
I agree. It's incredibly frustrating. I asked that mozzarella and alfredo be added to the "not allowed" list at the bottom of HELP CRAFTING GUIDELINES, and was told to "refer to #9" in that list.
Reviewing #9 of HELP COOKING DESIGN:
9. Suitability.
The Crafting Council reserves the right to determine whether foods are
suitable for Achaea's environment. Certain anachronistic foods and terms
will not be allowed. Following is a list of some such foods; we will
attempt to keep it up to date, but please be aware that it is not
exhaustive.
I think every sentence there makes it pretty clear. We simply cannot focus our time on writing some huge list of every little thing that may be denied (and then one would probably be missed, to which there would be an uproar when it was denied because it was "not on the list").
No reason why mozzarella can't be done anyway. It's a buffalo cheese. we have buffaloes. And it's been made since pre-industrial times. That's frankly all I consider when making a recipe or considering ingredients.
Personally all I object to in terms of 'anachronistic' food designs is the pancake ban. I know why they're banned, but non-american pancakes or other flat/quickbreads have existed as a traditional source of food for other cultures for generations.
I actually like the pancake ban as a neat little quirky tradition, though I think that after all this time if they did allow pancakes we would be safe from the shouts starting back up. The addition of waffles made my eye twitch though. Nobody was spamming shouts with their worship of waffles. They just had the unfortunate distinction of being associated with pancakes (because they can both be round, made of batter, and eaten at breakfast?) and a quirky rule got expanded? Did I miss something here?
Mozzarella... I don't understand why this would be banned. It's European, centuries of history, and not named after anything. Should be fine? Did someone try to sneak a pizza through and take the rejection as a mozzarella ban? Did someone get fed up with attempts to sneak pizza through and ban mozzarella? I love mozzarella. It's been my go-to cheese for nearly everything because it's a yummy cheese that isn't overpowering, has a pleasant texture both solid and molten, and is actually fun to eat (stringyyyyyy).
Pizza? Why is pizza banned? Does its popularity and subsequent availability in 45 minutes or less ruin immersion? Pizza's been around with that name for over a thousand years, AND originated in the right parts of the world.
The word "pizza" was first documented in 997 AD in Gaeta, Italy, and successively in different parts of Central and Southern Italy. The precursor of pizza was probably the focaccia, a flat bread known to the Romans as "panis focacius", to which toppings were then added.
In Ancient Rome, panis focacius was a flat bread baked on the hearth. The word is derived from the Latin focus meaning "hearth, place for baking." The basic recipe is thought by some to have originated with the Etruscans or ancient Greeks, but today it is widely associated with Ligurian cuisine.
Getting involved in Achaean features really makes you learn a lot of random stuff. I don't really want to make a pizza, but if I did, I'm guessing focaccia would get someone their pizza.
The waffle/pancake ban was a blanket ban. It wasn't just people shouting about their love for pancakes, but there was a waffle faction and a pancake faction.
1. If the US Supreme Court, whose entire professional job is doing this, can't come up with a definitive list of what constitutes 'obscene', instead basically boiling down to "we know it when we see it" I'm not sure why you expect the volunteers that manage crafting to do any better. It's the same problem, fundamentally. Setting down guidelines to the individual word/term in any kind of comprehensive way isn't time efficient and just encourages people to find stupid ways around them.
2. I'm not sure why there's any impression that just because a food exists in real life during year <x> it should exist in Achaea. As the help file says, foods that we don't feel fit will be rejected. It's pretty irrelevant when it was created irl. We allow bras, for instance, which didn't look like most of the ones in Achaea look until the early 20th century, but we don't allow gunpowder, which has existed in Europe since the 13th century. This is Achaea, not historical Europe.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new things.
People always get upset about things they don't understand. Looking for some logic to follow helps us to be better at submitting things that will be liked.
1. If the US Supreme Court, whose entire professional job is doing this, can't come up with a definitive list of what constitutes 'obscene', instead basically boiling down to "we know it when we see it" I'm not sure why you expect the volunteers that manage crafting to do any better. It's the same problem, fundamentally. Setting down guidelines to the individual word/term in any kind of comprehensive way isn't time efficient and just encourages people to find stupid ways around them.
2. I'm not sure why there's any impression that just because a food exists in real life during year <x> it should exist in Achaea. As the help file says, foods that we don't feel fit will be rejected. It's pretty irrelevant when it was created irl. We allow bras, for instance, which didn't look like most of the ones in Achaea look until the early 20th century, but we don't allow gunpowder, which has existed in Europe since the 13th century. This is Achaea, not historical Europe.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new things.
But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
Quick note. Write your question/etc on a letter and hand it to Amarisse (sp?). Don't issue. You'll get a reply that way, and usually a much better/more informative one.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.'
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the impression I've always gotten with regards to crafting is that appearances matter more than technical details such as time period or availability.
E.g. by and large, pizzas in an Achaean setting would be 'jarring' as they're associated with modern life despite actually being an old invention. Yet your example, in contrast, people don't often picture bras as 'modern' even though they are, so they don't feel 'jarring' to most people in an Achaean setting.
2. [...] Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new
What about crafters submitting dishes with ingredients that clearly exist in Achaean cuisine?
The mozarella refusal seemed odd since it was already introduced by admin in the form of 'mozarel sticks' at Sahart's in Shallam. The desc of the dish is still in Achaea wiki.
Platter of mozarel sticks - 40gp This platter comes with a dozen breaded sticks, each baked to a golden brown and mildly seasoned. Melted mozarel, a subtle, white cheese, oozes out from them invitingly. Small dishes of sauce offer variety, one red and tomato-tasting, one white and spicy, and another that seems like a mix of the two with something extra.
Mozarel sticks went down with Shallam so maybe the art of making mozarel has also been lost. That's fair and plausible. Maybe it never should've existed to begin with, which is also fair if true.
Linguini was cited as a (poor) example of a term that shouldn't be used because the name derives from a place which doesn't exist in Achaea and is OOC. But 'linguine' actually exists in Achaea (the origins of the name aren't explained) and was introduced by admin, not players. It isn't OOC at all.
Ocean prawn and linguine in tasso cream - 80gp
Cooked to perfection of linguine pasta and ocean prawn tails tossed in a reduced cream sauce seasoned with spicy Hashan tasso.
That dish is sold by Dagon, the barkeep of Fire and Spice in Ashtan. Claiming that the term for this noodle doesn't exist in Achaea is irrational, since clearly it does. It's not new or being introduced by a player at all.
This isn't the same as not wanting linguine in Achaea for being OOC. If the administration don't want linguine in Achaea, then by all means remove it from Achaea across the board. Just be consistent, please.
This also isn't the same as not wanting players crafting linguine noodles. If linguine is some sort magical noodle that can be made by certain denizen cooks but is somehow beyond the ken of ordinary Achaean chefs, then by all means, say that. I'd even be fine with player recipes containing linguine being removed. Just please please be consistent.
A frenzied cleric screams, "Like more than one halo!"
@Halos Sorry to butt in, but Clockwork exists within the game as well. Yet is disallowed. I personally (and no offense to anyone) think it sways with the current staff more than what's consistent to the things already in-game. There's no written guide, as @Sarapis pointed out. So it boils down to opinions. A shakey ground usually found in politics that always leads to agitation on one or many fronts. I.E. They're never going to please everyone, and things both can and likely will change on a whim. At least when it comes to finer details.
That said, I do understand the agitation that has to come from both sides. One pushed into more difficult work, and the other confused as to why things have become more difficult. Communication is key. I, personally, have felt there were good communications between myself and the team. Mind you, I haven't had that many submissions. So don't think I'm calling anyone liar. Nobody's perfect, and all systems have their flaws/weak links/people who don't perform quite as they should. It's the AC team's job to keep professional and communicable. It's our job to keep perspective. All I'm saying.
Comments
http://wiki.achaea.com/Crafting_Standards
Noting... our patron recently rejected the emdash on a house item. Don't know if that's new or personal taste.
Thanks to fixed character font width, there are no true endashes or emdashes in Achaea anyway—only hyphens.
I don't think I've ever seen a dash in a room description—they would be ugly anyway.
And for the main discussion at hand:
- Nothing live/moving. Plants, flowers, fur, beads, splinters of wood, so long as they are firmly dead/inanimate, are fine. A pendant with a dried flower pressed between the backing and glass is fine. A crown of twigs and blooming rosebuds is not (the twigs are fine, the roses are not).
Then says...- Nothing that is alive or was previously alive (excluding bone) maybe used in jewellery.
Except a crown is in jewellery, and leather is an option and was a part of something alive. Should the second one be deleted or ammended?But you can't write an emdash in Achaea. You can double-hyphenate (--), but it's poor substitute.
I wonder if they're going to change the word protege. Master and apprentice? I'm not whining, just wondering. In the past I was always told that things that can't be produced or wouldn't look good in achaea are adjusted to what works rather than ruled out. Spaced hyphens for emdashes, single-spaced sentences, ignoring accents, and so on.
It would be nice if each new person overseeing the crafting guild would publish revised expectations in detail, though, because learning what they prefer through trial and error can be frustrating and sometimes uninformative. This isn't uninformative. I'm rambling. But I did have a design rejected for being unsuitable, so I issued to ask in what way it was unsuitable so I could fix it and they replied because it's unsuitable. THAT was frustrating.
Reviewing #9 of HELP COOKING DESIGN:
Personally all I object to in terms of 'anachronistic' food designs is the pancake ban. I know why they're banned, but non-american pancakes or other flat/quickbreads have existed as a traditional source of food for other cultures for generations.
Mozzarella... I don't understand why this would be banned. It's European, centuries of history, and not named after anything. Should be fine? Did someone try to sneak a pizza through and take the rejection as a mozzarella ban? Did someone get fed up with attempts to sneak pizza through and ban mozzarella? I love mozzarella. It's been my go-to cheese for nearly everything because it's a yummy cheese that isn't overpowering, has a pleasant texture both solid and molten, and is actually fun to eat (stringyyyyyy).
Pizza? Why is pizza banned? Does its popularity and subsequent availability in 45 minutes or less ruin immersion? Pizza's been around with that name for over a thousand years, AND originated in the right parts of the world.
Getting involved in Achaean features really makes you learn a lot of random stuff. I don't really want to make a pizza, but if I did, I'm guessing focaccia would get someone their pizza.
Sadly this stuff still happens. I think they've moved on to cupcake fanaticism.
1. If the US Supreme Court, whose entire professional job is doing this, can't come up with a definitive list of what constitutes 'obscene', instead basically boiling down to "we know it when we see it" I'm not sure why you expect the volunteers that manage crafting to do any better. It's the same problem, fundamentally. Setting down guidelines to the individual word/term in any kind of comprehensive way isn't time efficient and just encourages people to find stupid ways around them.
2. I'm not sure why there's any impression that just because a food exists in real life during year <x> it should exist in Achaea. As the help file says, foods that we don't feel fit will be rejected. It's pretty irrelevant when it was created irl. We allow bras, for instance, which didn't look like most of the ones in Achaea look until the early 20th century, but we don't allow gunpowder, which has existed in Europe since the 13th century. This is Achaea, not historical Europe.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is whether we think it belongs in Achaea or not, and there are just a huge number of factors that don't lend themselves well to quantification, exactly like determining what constitutes 'obscenity.' The other issue is that you guys get particularly upset when something is approved and then not approved later (much more so than when something is denied and then permitted later), so it makes a lot of sense for the volunteer admins manning this system to tend to default to 'no' on new things.
Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
E.g. by and large, pizzas in an Achaean setting would be 'jarring' as they're associated with modern life despite actually being an old invention. Yet your example, in contrast, people don't often picture bras as 'modern' even though they are, so they don't feel 'jarring' to most people in an Achaean setting.
Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
What about crafters submitting dishes with ingredients that clearly exist in Achaean cuisine?
The mozarella refusal seemed odd since it was already introduced by admin in the form of 'mozarel sticks' at Sahart's in Shallam.
The desc of the dish is still in Achaea wiki.
Mozarel sticks went down with Shallam so maybe the art of making mozarel has also been lost. That's fair and plausible. Maybe it never should've existed to begin with, which is also fair if true.
Linguini was cited as a (poor) example of a term that shouldn't be used because the name derives from a place which doesn't exist in Achaea and is OOC. But 'linguine' actually exists in Achaea (the origins of the name aren't explained) and was introduced by admin, not players. It isn't OOC at all. That dish is sold by Dagon, the barkeep of Fire and Spice in Ashtan.
Claiming that the term for this noodle doesn't exist in Achaea is irrational, since clearly it does. It's not new or being introduced by a player at all.
This isn't the same as not wanting linguine in Achaea for being OOC. If the administration don't want linguine in Achaea, then by all means remove it from Achaea across the board. Just be consistent, please.
This also isn't the same as not wanting players crafting linguine noodles. If linguine is some sort magical noodle that can be made by certain denizen cooks but is somehow beyond the ken of ordinary Achaean chefs, then by all means, say that. I'd even be fine with player recipes containing linguine being removed. Just please please be consistent.
That said, I do understand the agitation that has to come from both sides. One pushed into more difficult work, and the other confused as to why things have become more difficult. Communication is key. I, personally, have felt there were good communications between myself and the team. Mind you, I haven't had that many submissions. So don't think I'm calling anyone liar. Nobody's perfect, and all systems have their flaws/weak links/people who don't perform quite as they should. It's the AC team's job to keep professional and communicable. It's our job to keep perspective. All I'm saying.