He made me do it!!

Szanthax

So... when is too much too much.



I forced someone to enter a portal today.. to their death. 

I just want to know what the limit of force is... like when is too much too much. Because I think impatience is too much... thanks..

Aerek

People tend to view Devotion Force differently because it's instantaneous and has no practical defense against it, other than being off-balance or otherwise unable to do what the Priest wants you to do at all times. Hypnosis has a prep time, the snap, and then a 1-second delay before you act. Heirophant Tarot and Mind Command are stopped by deafness. Soulmaster has to follow you before it can order you, and you can lose it. (That's still true, right?) Devo Force has none of these, so nothing except RNG from the Blissful Ignorance trait can stop it. Therefore, Devo Forcing actions that generally result in certain death is often looked down on as poor sportsmanship, because there's not much your target can do to prevent it.

Come to think of it, unless someone can give me a convincing argument as to why it should be that way, deafness should probably stop Force, too. Both Priests and Paladins can strip that easily, so it wouldn't kill the ability, but I don't see why it needs to be the odd man out in that arena. It used to be stopped by low alignment, but that's been gone for RL years, so Devo Force should have a mitigating factor just like every other force ability does.

Jeslyn

Ughhhh this is making me miss priest so bad. I must resist! I must!

Tahquil

To me the consideration there's really not enough information. Did you just force them into a portal, there was a chance for them to do something, then they died? Or did you stick the into a instant/certain death sitation?

Hyptonising/Forcing someone into a portal to their certain death is (in my opinion) a rather dick move. It doesn't really give them a chance to avoid the manouvre or counter it.

Szanthax

I never want to be forced to do anything I don't want to do. It's part of being American....

So when a monk forces me to apply restoration while off salve balance i'm like wtf monk... stop that...

When occies... just face rape me because thats what I like... i'm like... what just happened in the last 12 seconds?

How is forcing someone to walk where they don't want to walk or go where they don't want to go any difference? It can be done with a snap. It can be done with mind command. How is devotion force any different? And if that 1 second is the difference i'd take it to be able to forcerape people into my totems  

Szanthax

Tahquil said:

To me the consideration there's really not enough information. Did you just force them into a portal, there was a chance for them to do something, then they died? Or did you stick the into a instant/certain death sitation?

Hyptonising/Forcing someone into a portal to their certain death is (in my opinion) a rather dick move. It doesn't really give them a chance to avoid the manouvre or counter it.

I did he dick move thing... that option. 

I will always do the dick move thing. 

Backstabbed at intro type of dick move. Like let me enjoy my small amout of rp dick move. my non existant play life dickmove. 

Dickmove... my first name.. .Dick.. .middle name... Move

Tahquil

Welp, there you go. As you yourself said. Dick Move.

Dick moves just fosters an environment where dicks become prevelant and take over. No one likes a sausagefest. 

Makarios

We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.

Szanthax

Makarios said:

We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.

Just make me suck less and I'll have to resort to the gangster tactics less. Like Urvamps are my new breast friends.

Atalkez

Makarios said:

We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.

What about possibly adding a small windup to it, that has a third person message when they are going to attempt it? 1s or 2s so that you at least have some sort of window of opportunity to defend yourself from anything they are going to do.

Right now a paltry RNG chance and the off-chance of being off-balance being the only true "stops" to the ability kind of suck! Has for a while now.

Tesha

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.

Mishgul

Daeir said:

Blissful ignorance isn't a paltry chance. I've seen it eat 5-6 forces in a row with reasonable consistency. 

i don't think paltry chance means what you think it means

Kyrra

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

Tharvis

Kyrra said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

@Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?

Aegoth

I disagree that devo force is a healthy skill that "promotes creativity". At most, it promotes being as lame as one can possibly be. I doubt that priest/paladin would suffer overly much if the skill had a windup or was more difficult to use. Further, having easy access to tumble cancel is not a real solid argument either. Just brazier like the rest of us

Tharvis

Do paladins/priests actually require devotion force to be effective?

Mithridates

Kyrra said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 

Tharvis

Mithridates said:

Kyrra said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 

mhaldor does it sometimes, ashtan does it sometimes, haven't seen eleusis do it yet.
Though it is pretty rare to begin with

Seftin

Tharvis said:

Mithridates said:

Kyrra said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 

mhaldor does it sometimes, ashtan does it sometimes, haven't seen eleusis do it yet.
Though it is pretty rare to begin with

Challenge accepted.

Makarios

Tharvis said:

Kyrra said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 

Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.

@Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?

This wouldn't really work.

The autolust/yank/etc auto enemy works because it requires the person doing the pulling to be on the same guard stack they're pulling the target to, meaning they'll have a good chance of dying along with said person.

Forcing someone into a portal almost guarantees the opposite, leaving it down to a quick unenemy.

Tharvis

Makarios said:

Tharvis said:

Kyrra said:

<snip for mobile users>

@Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?

This wouldn't really work.

The autolust/yank/etc auto enemy works because it requires the person doing the pulling to be on the same guard stack they're pulling the target to, meaning they'll have a good chance of dying along with said person.

Forcing someone into a portal almost guarantees the opposite, leaving it down to a quick unenemy.

hrm, ENTER PORTAL unforceable then, maybe? would require them to force follow and enter the portal with them, making them die to the guardstack too

Kez

What if it required the presence of an incurable devotion affliction that wears off in 60 seconds or whatever. You get the affliction and go "oh crap i can be forced at any time during the next minute" and take whatever measures are appropriate?

Szanthax

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.

Right. I was trying to do defendable but misported

Szanthax

Szanthax said:

Tesha said:

Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.

Right. I was trying to do defendable but misported

actually... I lied..

I was enemied for sending portals to someone ... 'attempted murder by portals'... i'm like no... this is what attempted murder looks like. *drunk*

Aodfionn

For a fun forum game, use the thread responses above to see if you can't tell who is Targossian, and who isn't, based solely on their opposition/support of Devo Force as it currently exists.

Mishgul

Should implement demon force. Or teen aqua hunger force.

Szanthax

so I think I found my answer..

Targ: Don't do it into guards
Everyone else: Szans a jackass
Garden: Meh... portal has a 4 second wind up anyways

Elazar

Can we not just throw a sandwich or something through the portal to close it? 

Anedhel

Why're you afking long enough for someone to open a portal and force you without you noticing an enemy's in the room with you? o_O

Also, Devotion Force is fine. The fact that you need balance for 99% of dangerous things means it's very, very rare that force will do something terrible to you. The one thing that was a bit strong (removing armour) was addressed, and tumble cancel, while not -necessary-, is a nice counter-point to things Devotionists (specially priests) don't have.

ETA: While you don't throw sandwiches -through- portals, you can uh... just drop a monolith, right?

Amranu

While we're on the topic, why can Occies empress into guard stacks of cities they're enemied to with Doppie?

Because @Jinsun pulls that shit all the time.

Elazar

If a portal opens, I'm reaching into my bag of stasis for my group of 50 ham and cheese melts