Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

He made me do it!!

SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
edited October 2015 in The Matsuhama Arena
So... when is too much too much.



I forced someone to enter a portal today.. to their death. 

I just want to know what the limit of force is... like when is too much too much. Because I think impatience is too much... thanks..





«1

Comments

  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    People tend to view Devotion Force differently because it's instantaneous and has no practical defense against it, other than being off-balance or otherwise unable to do what the Priest wants you to do at all times. Hypnosis has a prep time, the snap, and then a 1-second delay before you act. Heirophant Tarot and Mind Command are stopped by deafness. Soulmaster has to follow you before it can order you, and you can lose it. (That's still true, right?) Devo Force has none of these, so nothing except RNG from the Blissful Ignorance trait can stop it. Therefore, Devo Forcing actions that generally result in certain death is often looked down on as poor sportsmanship, because there's not much your target can do to prevent it.

    Come to think of it, unless someone can give me a convincing argument as to why it should be that way, deafness should probably stop Force, too. Both Priests and Paladins can strip that easily, so it wouldn't kill the ability, but I don't see why it needs to be the odd man out in that arena. It used to be stopped by low alignment, but that's been gone for RL years, so Devo Force should have a mitigating factor just like every other force ability does.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Dochitha
  • JeslynJeslyn United StatesMember Posts: 482 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ughhhh this is making me miss priest so bad. I must resist! I must!
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,127 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To me the consideration there's really not enough information. Did you just force them into a portal, there was a chance for them to do something, then they died? Or did you stick the into a instant/certain death sitation?

    Hyptonising/Forcing someone into a portal to their certain death is (in my opinion) a rather dick move. It doesn't really give them a chance to avoid the manouvre or counter it.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    I never want to be forced to do anything I don't want to do. It's part of being American....

    So when a monk forces me to apply restoration while off salve balance i'm like wtf monk... stop that...

    When occies... just face rape me because thats what I like... i'm like... what just happened in the last 12 seconds?

    How is forcing someone to walk where they don't want to walk or go where they don't want to go any difference? It can be done with a snap. It can be done with mind command. How is devotion force any different? And if that 1 second is the difference i'd take it to be able to forcerape people into my totems :expressionless: 



  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    To me the consideration there's really not enough information. Did you just force them into a portal, there was a chance for them to do something, then they died? Or did you stick the into a instant/certain death sitation?

    Hyptonising/Forcing someone into a portal to their certain death is (in my opinion) a rather dick move. It doesn't really give them a chance to avoid the manouvre or counter it.
    I did he dick move thing... that option. 

    I will always do the dick move thing. 

    Backstabbed at intro type of dick move. Like let me enjoy my small amout of rp dick move. my non existant play life dickmove. 

    Dickmove... my first name.. .Dick.. .middle name... Move





  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,127 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Welp, there you go. As you yourself said. Dick Move.

    Dick moves just fosters an environment where dicks become prevelant and take over. No one likes a sausagefest. 
    BoosteyaValkynUtianima
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,798 Achaean staff
    We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Makarios said:
    We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.
    Just make me suck less and I'll have to resort to the gangster tactics less. Like Urvamps are my new breast friends.



  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,825 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    We considered deafness for devotion force in the past, but given priest can strip deafness+force anyway, it'd not really change anything other than make it more unwieldy mid combat. Not really keen on more hardcoded exceptions like no force off heal bal, etc.
    What about possibly adding a small windup to it, that has a third person message when they are going to attempt it? 1s or 2s so that you at least have some sort of window of opportunity to defend yourself from anything they are going to do.

    Right now a paltry RNG chance and the off-chance of being off-balance being the only true "stops" to the ability kind of suck! Has for a while now.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,881 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

    As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

    I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.

     i'm a rebel

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Blissful ignorance isn't a paltry chance. I've seen it eat 5-6 forces in a row with reasonable consistency. Deaf force would just result in priests healing deafness and forcing in same balance, and paladins arcing prefarar and forcing in same balance. Adding a channel to it would just be silly.

    It's pretty much fine as is. Strong, but fine. Other classes have reasonably potent no-counter mechanics as well, it is fine for force to be a thing.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Blissful ignorance isn't a paltry chance. I've seen it eat 5-6 forces in a row with reasonable consistency. 
    i don't think paltry chance means what you think it means

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    KietBoosteyaTvistor
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    Tharvis
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    @Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    Dochitha
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I disagree that devo force is a healthy skill that "promotes creativity". At most, it promotes being as lame as one can possibly be. I doubt that priest/paladin would suffer overly much if the skill had a windup or was more difficult to use. Further, having easy access to tumble cancel is not a real solid argument either. Just brazier like the rest of us
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Do paladins/priests actually require devotion force to be effective?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Adding a windup+3rd person to it will make it useless. None of you are thinking this through.

    Devotionist uses force, third person message shows.
    Victim knows they are about to be forced in x seconds. Spams writhe half a second before the force hit, or prones the off-bal/eq devotionist instantly, canceling the skill. Devotionist now on floor for 4 seconds. This could be done trivially in code.
    90% of what force is now used for is stopped.

    Windup without 3rd person will just result in exactly the same as the current effect, with maybe only top tier fighters perceiving the very brief pause in priest/paladin offense where force is used offensively as an actual vulnerability for them to exploit.

    Force is a fairly major factional advantage, and it already has in built counters (such as not being on bal/eq when it is going to be used).

    Take blissful ignorance and laugh when force fails, which it does so pretty frequently. I used to force Shunsui for runes all the time and had multiple instances where force failed because of blissful ignorance several times in a row. I'd wager somewhere in the 15-20% proc rate, even. Maybe. It's a minor trait in any case, so you have no reason not to get it.

    Also stop being bad.
  • MithridatesMithridates Member Posts: 1,956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 
    mhaldor does it sometimes, ashtan does it sometimes, haven't seen eleusis do it yet.
    Though it is pretty rare to begin with
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Tharvis said:
    Kyrra said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    I don't think any other faction does this.  I think it's just Targossas that pulls stuff like that. 
    mhaldor does it sometimes, ashtan does it sometimes, haven't seen eleusis do it yet.
    Though it is pretty rare to begin with
    Challenge accepted.
    Tvistor
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,798 Achaean staff
    Tharvis said:
    Kyrra said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. 
    Having been forced into a portal from Ashtan onto a guardstack in Targossas, and subsequently killed 1v8, I can definitely agree that it's lame.

    It'd be nice if it had similar consequences to lusting people into an enemy city etc but that's a whole other topic as well.
    @Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?

    This wouldn't really work.

    The autolust/yank/etc auto enemy works because it requires the person doing the pulling to be on the same guard stack they're pulling the target to, meaning they'll have a good chance of dying along with said person.

    Forcing someone into a portal almost guarantees the opposite, leaving it down to a quick unenemy.

  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    Tharvis said:
    Kyrra said:
    <snip for mobile users>
    @Makarios any thoughts on this? Making the city you force somebody to enter a portal into auto-enemy the forcer, similar to hoist+track / lust?

    This wouldn't really work.

    The autolust/yank/etc auto enemy works because it requires the person doing the pulling to be on the same guard stack they're pulling the target to, meaning they'll have a good chance of dying along with said person.

    Forcing someone into a portal almost guarantees the opposite, leaving it down to a quick unenemy.

    hrm, ENTER PORTAL unforceable then, maybe? would require them to force follow and enter the portal with them, making them die to the guardstack too
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • KezKez Member Posts: 646 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    What if it required the presence of an incurable devotion affliction that wears off in 60 seconds or whatever. You get the affliction and go "oh crap i can be forced at any time during the next minute" and take whatever measures are appropriate?
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

    As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

    I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.
    Right. I was trying to do defendable but misported :(



  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean

    Szanthax said:
    Tesha said:
    Forcing enter portal to guards is pretty lame, I wouldn't suggest doing that. Forcing enter portal to defendable/prop totem is entirely different, and I think legitimate. I can't remember which Jhui was doing with ranged undeaf + mind command enter portal on the leader of a party, I think into guards but can't remember certainly. It sucks for either side to deal with.

    As for force, it offers a ton of utility to the class, and I think a windup or hitting shield etc. would be pretty harmful in both 1v1 and group. Windup would kill using force to reset limbs in 1v1 and seriously hurt efforts to cancel tumble, and it hitting shield/lyre would kill using it as a way to drop lyre. 

    I love abilities that encourage creativity, and force is about as creative as it gets. It's definitely powerful.
    Right. I was trying to do defendable but misported :(
    actually... I lied..

    I was enemied for sending portals to someone ... 'attempted murder by portals'... i'm like no... this is what attempted murder looks like. *drunk*



  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    For a fun forum game, use the thread responses above to see if you can't tell who is Targossian, and who isn't, based solely on their opposition/support of Devo Force as it currently exists.
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

    (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


    JeslynSarathaiTvistor
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    so I think I found my answer..

    Targ: Don't do it into guards
    Everyone else: Szans a jackass
    Garden: Meh... portal has a 4 second wind up anyways



    AodfionnJeslyn
  • ElazarElazar NC/MhaldorMember Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Can we not just throw a sandwich or something through the portal to close it? 
    ShirszaeRohaiBoosteya
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Why're you afking long enough for someone to open a portal and force you without you noticing an enemy's in the room with you? o_O

    Also, Devotion Force is fine. The fact that you need balance for 99% of dangerous things means it's very, very rare that force will do something terrible to you. The one thing that was a bit strong (removing armour) was addressed, and tumble cancel, while not -necessary-, is a nice counter-point to things Devotionists (specially priests) don't have.

    ETA: While you don't throw sandwiches -through- portals, you can uh... just drop a monolith, right?
    YselaBoosteya
«1
Sign In to Comment.