Damage class

Isaeah

While I know afflictions are a part of combat, I prefer to fight and try damage kills, especially new to Achaea combat. I currently am a magi but I have been looking at Sylvan. Which would be the better class for damage kills? Also, I love to bash, so I would prefer my class to be able to bash easily solo and in groups. Thoughts?

Lothien

Sylvan is pretty good at bashing! Maybe not the absolute best, but flailed staff and viridian tankiness are really nice. I sometimes end up killing people from damage while I'm trying to set up Heartseed, but I'm not sure it's a "pure" damage class, but it can pump some out.

Edit: just to add that sylvans also have chainmail, barkskin and not diamondskin, and are an aligned class -- not sure if you could play it in Targossas or not!

Cynlael

Alchemist is pretty fitting for that role. Though you need nimble for combat, which can inhibit your bashing (albeit very slightly). Nothing else you can really play in Targossas, that uses Quick-Witted. Sylvan still as good as it's always been, and its combat is pretty ridic too, with weatherweaving.

Cynlael

Definitely sounds like Sylvan would appeal to you, then. Alchemist to a slightly lesser extent, but they're largely an aff class.

Aerek

The last few years have seen a steady transition away from "pure damage" setups in general, and the biggest poster boys of those approaches, like artefacted Magi, Knights with ridiculous damage weapons, Occultist Star/Warp/Chaosrays spam, and STR/INT stacking in general, have steadily been nerfed or reworked to become more complex and remove the artefacted elite's ability to nuke lower-level players in short order.

That said:

• I would say that two-hander Knight is probably the closest to a traditional "damage class" as you're going to get out of Achaea anymore, because pressuring health is their entire design. Their "afflictions" require health elixir balance to cure, so if you only cure fractures you get damaged out pretty quick. If you only heal health, not curing fractures leads into the huge damage spike of Disembowel. (Not to mention if you're Runewarden, a lucky Hugalaz proc can just nuke a lot of people) You're -supposed- to count limb hits as 2H, but if we're being honest, you don't really need to if you're just looking for casual effectiveness. 2H is very newb friendly once you sort out how to use Battlefury efficiently, and still very scary at the top end. I found their hunting decent. They're slow-ish, but there's zero endurance drain, and you're pretty damage resistant as a Knight.
• Sylvan is more complex than 2H overall, but not by too much. Very simple limb prep options available, but also have an affliction/damage spike route. It's not even really an "affliction" route, it's basically just paralysis/sensitivity x5, Shockwave, Stormhammer, with more affliction play available if you want to get into it. Last I checked, Sylvan is top-notch bashing, has a bunch of neat, customizable perks via Propagation, and a lot of other utility in Groves. If you like the "mage" vibe but actual Magi isn't doing it for you, Sylvan might be right up your alley.
  
• Magi, unless something has changed, is still pretty good at pure damage setups IF you have the intelligence/artefacts for it. Their recent overhaul gives them a lot of complex limb-pressure-into-instant-kill options, but to my knowledge you can still Staffcast/Stormhammer/Holocaust folks into oblivion just like the good(bad?) old days.
  

Isaeah

Thanks guys! I am still deciding if I am staying in Targ which is why I asked. HUGE swing in terms of tankiness after Bloodsworn. Thinking I need avoidance.

Tael

Knights are very strong classes for pure damage. Two-handed in particular is all about pressuring health. Though magi can do a lot of damage too, and Sylvan can set up some pretty large damage spikes.

That said, you're never going to be able to compete with many combatants using just damage. Even classes that typically kill using damage involve some strategy like using sensitivity to amplify the damage, lining up big damage spikes, carefully breaking limbs in order to disembowel or backbreaker throw, hindering to keep people in the room, etc. There's no class where you can just spam damage abilities and have any hope of getting a kill against anyone who has absolutely any idea what they're doing.

As for bashing, some classes are clearly stronger than others, but really, the difference isn't that tremendous. They're all very much viable and unless you are really, truly dedicated to bashing and you plan to do that to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, so you want to completely focus on it to the exclusion of everything else, I would not pick a class on the basis of their bashing. When it comes to bashing, the playstyle of all of the classes is extremely similar - do some attack over and over and use battlerage to do more damage (or occasionally to do an affliction, or to detonate an affliction in group bashing if you can time it right). But in terms of group and 1v1 combat against other players, the classes are very different - so, in addition to picking a class you like the flavour of, that's probably what you want to pay attention to instead of bashing.

And I wouldn't even consider avoidance until you've transed class skills and survival.

Isaeah

Tael said:

Knights are very strong classes for pure damage. Two-handed in particular is all about pressuring health. Though magi can do a lot of damage too, and Sylvan can set up some pretty large damage spikes.

That said, you're never going to be able to compete with many combatants using just damage. Even classes that typically kill using damage involve some strategy like using sensitivity to amplify the damage, lining up big damage spikes, carefully breaking limbs in order to disembowel or backbreaker throw, hindering to keep people in the room, etc. There's no class where you can just spam damage abilities and have any hope of getting a kill against anyone who has absolutely any idea what they're doing.

As for bashing, some classes are clearly stronger than others, but really, the difference isn't that tremendous. They're all very much viable and unless you are really, truly dedicated to bashing and you plan to do that to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, so you want to completely focus on it to the exclusion of everything else, I would not pick a class on the basis of their bashing. When it comes to bashing, the playstyle of all of the classes is extremely similar - do some attack over and over and use battlerage to do more damage (or occasionally to do an affliction, or to detonate an affliction in group bashing if you can time it right). But in terms of group and 1v1 combat against other players, the classes are very different - so, in addition to picking a class you like the flavour of, that's probably what you want to pay attention to instead of bashing.

And I wouldn't even consider avoidance until you've transed class skills and survival.

I have already trans'ed survival and until I changed from Paladin I was tri-trans. Combat is secondary to me. I spend MOST of my time bashing, roleplaying, and designing(I am a tailor). I fully acknowledge afflictions are necessary for ALL offenses to some degree, but I would prefer a class that uses afflictions as prep for their burst damage or to cascade their damage into a kill. Afflictions in the sense of Shaman or Serpent have no interest to me. I also dislike limb-counting. I acknowledge this limits my range and scope of combat, but I like what I like.

Sorry for the mega-paragraph. On mobile at work.

Tael

Isaeah said:

Tael said:

Knights are very strong classes for pure damage. Two-handed in particular is all about pressuring health. Though magi can do a lot of damage too, and Sylvan can set up some pretty large damage spikes.

That said, you're never going to be able to compete with many combatants using just damage. Even classes that typically kill using damage involve some strategy like using sensitivity to amplify the damage, lining up big damage spikes, carefully breaking limbs in order to disembowel or backbreaker throw, hindering to keep people in the room, etc. There's no class where you can just spam damage abilities and have any hope of getting a kill against anyone who has absolutely any idea what they're doing.

As for bashing, some classes are clearly stronger than others, but really, the difference isn't that tremendous. They're all very much viable and unless you are really, truly dedicated to bashing and you plan to do that to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, so you want to completely focus on it to the exclusion of everything else, I would not pick a class on the basis of their bashing. When it comes to bashing, the playstyle of all of the classes is extremely similar - do some attack over and over and use battlerage to do more damage (or occasionally to do an affliction, or to detonate an affliction in group bashing if you can time it right). But in terms of group and 1v1 combat against other players, the classes are very different - so, in addition to picking a class you like the flavour of, that's probably what you want to pay attention to instead of bashing.

And I wouldn't even consider avoidance until you've transed class skills and survival.

I have already trans'ed survival and until I changed from Paladin I was tri-trans. Combat is secondary to me. I spend MOST of my time bashing, roleplaying, and designing(I am a tailor). I fully acknowledge afflictions are necessary for ALL offenses to some degree, but I would prefer a class that uses afflictions as prep for their burst damage or to cascade their damage into a kill. Afflictions in the sense of Shaman or Serpent have no interest to me. I also dislike limb-counting. I acknowledge this limits my range and scope of combat, but I like what I like.

Sorry for the mega-paragraph. On mobile at work.

Magi (though I'm still not totally sure how damage-focused their primary kill strategies are after artificing was added), sylvan (mostly focusing on weatherweaving in combat - heartseed kills require limbcounting), and knight (it sounds like two-handed would be a lot more what you are looking for out of the specs) are all probably good choices then. I think probably all of the other classes are a lot more focused on either affliction-heavy strategies or relatively complex limb counting.

Edit: Actually druid is also a class that can kill by prepping with some afflictions and then spiking damage. Sentinel might be able to also, though I'm not really sure how much limb-counting figures into skirmishing now.

Aegoth

Magi kills mostly by stacking salve momentum on the target. Limb breaks, burns and freeze levels are important to success.Timing is critical, but it is extremely rewarding to get that pummel/destroy on your target while they're still trying to cure limb breaks. If you want to stick with magi and are curious how it works, send me a tell in game and i'll be happy to help you out!

Cynlael

@Tael, skullbash (for Sentinel) is vastly similar to backbreaker for monks, really all you need to know there. Except scales with head damage, not torso (and they have access to an -easily- stuck sensitivity, which they can combo -with- the skullbash, if they don't have deafness up [it's not going to be ever, if you go that route])

Atalkez

Blademaster hasn't been listed. Lots of utility with the class, nearly no need for affliction knowledge and has a very reliable kill sequence. Scales very good with strength if you can go without the Con.

Bashing is horrendous.

Isaeah

Atalkez said:

Blademaster hasn't been listed. Lots of utility with the class, nearly no need for affliction knowledge and has a very reliable kill sequence. Scales very good with strength if you can go without the Con.

Bashing is horrendous.

I tried the blademaster route. The bashing made me cry

Siodhachan

Why is bashing as a Blademaster horrendous?

Isaeah

You get decent damage mitigation in Myr, but you have no way of healing yourself, your damage is sub-par in Myr and the endurance drain even with trans Fitness is beyond horrendous.

You cannot even try to marathon bash as a blademaster when you are going through 10k endurance in an hour or less.

Atalkez

It's middle of the road in terms of DPS, even artied. @Sena can give accurate numbers for that.

Monster endurance drain means you can't hunt for very long without having to stop to sleep.

Tael

Atalkez said:

Blademaster hasn't been listed. Lots of utility with the class, nearly no need for affliction knowledge and has a very reliable kill sequence. Scales very good with strength if you can go without the Con.

Bashing is horrendous.

"I also dislike limb-counting."

I think if he dislikes limb-counting and wants good bashing, BM is probably not a great choice.

Caladbolg

To be fair though if you dislike afflictions and dislike limb counting there's not really a class in the game to be played that I can think of. Maybe Magi with alot of arties?

But to be fair if it was straight I do more damage than you can handle but you can't escape.. would be extremely broken. need some level of other play there.

Isaeah

Caladbolg said:

To be fair though if you dislike afflictions and dislike limb counting there's not really a class in the game to be played that I can think of. Maybe Magi with alot of arties?

But to be fair if it was straight I do more damage than you can handle but you can't escape.. would be extremely broken. need some level of other play there.

I dislike pure afflictions classes - ones like Shaman or Serpent that rely on affliction locks to get kills. That is why I moved away from sword and shield Knight (along with the limb counting). I DO enjoy affliction classes that use them more as a a means of gaining damage momentum.

I am a pretty linear person and I have no expectation of getting top or even mid tier fighting. But I would enjoy helping in a raid or defense and not feel like I am flailing or lost in even where to start. My coding ability ia so-so, so I will be happy with buttons and a few echoes to get me along. 

Edit: I really appreciate all the constructive comments. Helping a lot with a big decision in my game play. Thank you, all.

Bronislav

Damage class?

..Um, Dragon. DragonDragonDragon. Truelocking is rare in dueling and dependent upon the opponent's curing priorities, which leaves breaking limbs and breathraining AND BITING AND BITING AND BITING.

And Blast.

Isaeah

Bronislav said:

Damage class?

..Um, Dragon. DragonDragonDragon. Truelocking is rare in dueling and dependent upon the opponent's curing priorities, which leaves breaking limbs and breathraining AND BITING AND BITING AND BITING.

And Blast.

Working on it!

Aegoth

If you can find another magi, just cata your enemies to death.

Elowin

An unartifacted Occultist can still put down some seriously heavy burst damage. Observe, me vs. Gordon. Log starts from me entering the room.

http://hastebin.com/igigayihig.vhdl

Isaeah

Elowin said:

An unartifacted Occultist can still put down some seriously heavy burst damage. Observe, me vs. Gordon. Log starts from me entering the room.

http://hastebin.com/igigayihig.vhdl

I played Imperian back in the day and did very well as the reskinned Occultist. Everything I read about them showed that they seemed more affliction-driven with ent balance now. I read the thread on Occultist vs Sylvan and am still confused with Occultist. 

So is hound/star/warp is still viable?

Isaeah

Bah. Doublepost. How good is Occultist bashing?

Caladbolg

Elowin said:

An unartifacted Occultist can still put down some seriously heavy burst damage. Observe, me vs. Gordon. Log starts from me entering the room.

http://hastebin.com/igigayihig.vhdl

You only have 3475 hp which is likely alot of your problem there. Occultist burst damage is pretty good typically though.

Elowin

Caladbolg said:

Elowin said:

An unartifacted Occultist can still put down some seriously heavy burst damage. Observe, me vs. Gordon. Log starts from me entering the room.

http://hastebin.com/igigayihig.vhdl

You only have 3475 hp which is likely alot of your problem there. Occultist burst damage is pretty good typically though.

3500, but yeah. I spec'd STR long ago and now, I'm feeling the pain. Planning on reincarnating and dumping everything into CON instead. /derail

Caladbolg

Elowin said:

Caladbolg said:

Elowin said:

An unartifacted Occultist can still put down some seriously heavy burst damage. Observe, me vs. Gordon. Log starts from me entering the room.

http://hastebin.com/igigayihig.vhdl

You only have 3475 hp which is likely alot of your problem there. Occultist burst damage is pretty good typically though.

3500, but yeah. I spec'd STR long ago and now, I'm feeling the pain. Planning on reincarnating and dumping everything into CON instead. /derail

Well, iirc 4k is about the point the % vs base damage evens out. Giving you a good damage reduction until 4kish health. More helps but doesn't help nearly as much as that first 4k.

Also technically not a derail as we're talking about the damage of unartied Occultists which has to do with the topic at hand.

Cynlael

Occultist damage is 100000000% predictable and, if you're not tunnel visioning like mad, you should not really ever die 1v1 to it unless it's Seragorn/Jhui/you're not very high level

I played Imperian back in the day and did very well as the reskinned Occultist. Everything I read about them showed that they seemed more affliction-driven with ent balance now. I read the thread on Occultist vs Sylvan and am still confused with Occultist. 

So is hound/star/warp is still viable?

It's not really 'reskinned' - it's completely different. Even before it got a complete overhaul it was pretty highly different (bar passive entity stack, and half the tarot AB list) --- If you see an Occultist flinging stars, that's a pretty good hint you should stay the f- away from them, else you're about to get popped. If they start warping you, you're about to get popped (generally by a truename soon, unless you're <4k hp)

If you see them enervating you, set your mana sips really high / run if you drop below ~50%. Just don't let them be on balance while you're below 40%, otherwise your chance to get gibbed skyrockets.
(source: I've done it a lot. Even unartied you can drop a ~5k hp omnitrans'd person in seconds with the right setup)

ps @Elowin that's not really an adequate log. You walked in to him while his meteors were mid-air, and about to hit you. Of course you're going to die (also, your strike isn't working, otherwise you could've impaled him off that)

Sena

Atalkez said:

It's middle of the road in terms of DPS, even artied. @Sena can give accurate numbers for that.

Monster endurance drain means you can't hunt for very long without having to stop to sleep.

A bit late responding to this, but while I can give numbers for blademaster, with all the changes in the last few months my numbers for 40% of the classes are outdated, so I can't really say how they compare to everyone else now.

6 months ago though, they were about equal to most other classes in terms of DPS (at any level of strength/artiedness) but very subpar defensively and with high endurance drain. The only real advantage they had was flexibility; they can sacrifice a lot of their survivability in exchange for high DPS (Arash) if fighting weak things, or sacrifice a lot of DPS for massively buffed defence (Mir).

Udyr

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Monk has a very large amount of DPS with scorpion combos. If you've ever been whacked by a bastard sword, it hurts about that much, but decent quicker. No fractures here though, but of course left/right lvl2 leg break into axekick axekick kills just about anyone.

And in pvp, you basically can't be damaged out if you have working arms, kaiheal is almost a fullheal and can be used while prone with broken anything besides an arm. A lot of people know this and will usually try to prep arm as well, which gives you more time to setup your own prep.

I dunno if I'd exactly call it "pure damage" since the damage you deal is reliant on limb prep, but they still dish out solid damage with full torso and head combos from standing. Kaichoke is pretty good damage as well, if you're going against heavy armor classes. Even with low int it can still deal around 1k a hit with a reasonable EQ time if you're in dragon stance.