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Classleads - July/August 2015

ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
A place to discuss the coming round of classleads, since I haven't seen a discussion for it yet
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  • AeliosAelios Member Posts: 449 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Delete Lyre.

    /thread

    "You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."

     -Albert Einstein

    Achilles
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2015
    The feeling I'm getting from the classleads:

    Sylvans: Range might be OP, otherwise no one cares
    Runewarden: Some changes wanted regarding variety of kills
    Alchemist: Wants more afflictions mostly
    Blademaster: Needs nerfs (although most of the suggested nerfs were submitted by a Blademaster so who knows)
    Druid: Druids exist?
    Infernal: Infernals sux, make it a bit better
    Jester: Jester pretty op, nerf some things
    Monk: Telepathy is broken
    Occultist: Lots of requests for buffs?
    Paladin: Nothing other than a piety change that I saw
    Priest: ^
    Sentinel: Nothing at all
    Dragon: Dragon is boring and needs buffed
    Serpent: Some whacky classleads for changes
    Shaman: Some changes/small buffs requested, some people wanting curses or vodun abilities nerfed because they die to them.
    Apostate: Not scary anymore so need changes?
    Bard: Not much in classleads, small nerfs.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,991 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    The main (Knight) complaints seem to be that doubleslash with forged scimitar isn't quite fast enough, and that disembowel for DWC is still too easy to avoid. Neither of those are really surprising. Everybody knew 228 speed was crap for years before Knight changes were released, and nothing has changed for tumble, torso damage or disembowel itself since before the Knight changes were released at the beginning of the year. I haven't really liked any of the proposed changes for the disembowel/tumble issue, though.

    Dunn
  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,725 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    The feeling I'm getting from the classleads:

    ...
    Shaman: Some changes/small buffs requested, some people wanting curses or vodun abilities nerfed because they die to them.
    ...
    You are so incredibly transparent
    MizikTahquilShirszaeCarbine
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No point in hiding my biases anyhow.
    ZukoShirszae
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2015
    I'm a magi but a little biased towards the Monk Kaido suggestions.. 

    Seems a little bit heavy of a nerf, for a class that's just starting to make a come back.

    I suggested in my censure instead of completely nerffing Kai for group combat (classlead106), that there is a % decrease in kai generation (2-2.5%) for every individual on your enemy list in the room. 

    For example, Zukomonk moves to clouds with Aodfionn, Rohai, and Dannyl (all enemied for kai). Proficy, Xer, Xinna, and Ainly arrive (also enemied) for the fight. That is 7 enemies total. So when I generate kai with all of them in the room, I am generating 83% of what I normally would.

    It's not a major nerf, but at least it doesn't take the fun out of group combat for monks. It would substantially reduce their kai gain in big groups (40-50% reduction maximum), so they would only be available for a power play on entry. 

    Edit: Now that I think about it, could even be a 3% reduction. So at maximum, a 60% kai reduction for group combat. Still leaves some potential, but forces some time in between the monk's attacks.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    I only read the blademaster ones, but most of them seem pretty badly written - they're just requests for flat numbers increases/decreases.

    There's one in Shindo where solution 1 is a cooldown on phoenix, solution 2 is letting weariness block phoenix, and solution 3 is both and also delete fitness. Another one on evade has solution 1 remove evade solution 2 make evade cost 75% of mana and solution 3 delete blademasters. Another one explains that the writer refuses to even fight blademasters.

    Someone mad.

    On a more serious note, I'm pretty disappointed by the blademaster classleads. I was really hoping someone would come up with a better, more interesting way to tone them down, perhaps while also addressing issues like the nigh invulnerability that a high mana pool can grant thanks to clot not having any kind of scaling based on mana pool. And, while I know people disagree, I also still hope that some day they'll see some even modest ranged ability - even if it means they have to be balanced like other classes in melee (that's always struck me as a limp balancing strategy - they're allowed to be oppressive and frustrating to play against 1v1 because they have to face frustration in ranged encounters?).

    On another serious note, can something be done about these "joke classleads"? I feel like I have to read through a bunch of them every round of classleads. This doesn't seem like the place to make "lol delete this class" jokes, particularly when admin are eventually going to be spending time reading them.
    PraxidesDochitha
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I forgot to submit my classlead on reporting pets D: 
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Tael realistically the problem with large mana pools nullifying Blademaster as a threat largely has to do with clot being a flat amount of mana per use (although they also get a percentage of mana through impaleslash).

    This also leads to a problem with Shaman and their bleeding being hilariously overpowered against people with small mana pools, and practically worthless against others. The simplest solution for this would probably to make clot -always- have a percentage mana pool component, with impaleslash increasing that, and a nerf to the flat mana cost of clot.


    Dochitha
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2015

    Yeah, shamans don't, but BM already have clot scaling via impaleslash. I really don't think high mana targets are a problem for BMs. They  might require more effort than low mana targets, but that's just like any class. Certain things make some people harder to kill than others.

    Phoenix -does- need a lengthy cooldown, to put it in line with every other curing ability.

  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:

    On a more serious note, I'm pretty disappointed by the blademaster classleads. I was really hoping someone would come up with a better, more interesting way to tone them down, perhaps while also addressing issues like the nigh invulnerability that a high mana pool can grant thanks to clot not having any kind of scaling based on mana pool. 
    Is the problem high mana pools alone, or high mana pools + arties? With impaleslash, clot costs 60+max_mana/30 mana, which gives you 24-25 clots (480-500 bleeding) to run through mana pools from ~6000-9000, not considering sips. Sip rings and regen rings, on top of sips scaling with health, certainly make it more problematic. Overall, it seems like it should still be possible, albeit much more difficult than with a lower-mana less artied opponent (as it should be). Of course, anyone with that much mana and mana sip/regen rings probably also has Robes of the Magi, which probably does make for brokenstar immunity, but that's not so much a problem with high mana pools.

    That said, I was never a particularly stellar combatant, and I haven't played in quite a while, so caveat lector and all that. Still curious about the state of things, though.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2015
    Amranu said:
    @Tael realistically the problem with large mana pools nullifying Blademaster as a threat largely has to do with clot being a flat amount of mana per use (although they also get a percentage of mana through impaleslash).
    Tael said:
    thanks to clot not having any kind of scaling based on mana pool
    As for how much of a problem it is, Atalkez was talking about how killing Jhui was functionally impossible - not just more effort, but actually not possible in any remotely realistic scenario. It may not be a very widespread problem and it may affect very few opponents, but I think it's still a problem. And it's a problem that should be pretty easy to solve without buffing the class against people who aren't in that very small category.

    I think it's a combination of large mana pools (making the flat part of the cost very low both in terms of proportion of the pool and how many clots each mana sip amounts to) and also artefacts that make mana expenditure and recovery less costly. Robes of the Magi seem like the biggest offender against BM. And shaman is even worse without anything that makes clot scale like impaleslash, which is pretty sad given how many interesting strategies spiritlore clearly intends to set up around bleeding.

    In general, it seems like there's a pretty large consensus that for the most part BM needs to be toned down, and I think a really nice way to do that would be to tone it down vs most opponents and give it a little bit of love against the very high end of people who can clot through anything via mana pool, regen, sip, and mana cost reduction artefacts. It's pretty lame that a combination of artefacts like that can make you almost completely impervious as a constant, passive effect requiring no input - historically when pretty much the same problem has happened with health pools, additional mechanics have been introduced to amplify the damage like the several finishers that now scale off of torso damage or how successive BBTs stack damage until it's functionally unsurvivable regardless of health pool.

    I was hoping someone would classlead something about clotting (or at least clotting+artefacts that buff it) after that shaman thread (where BM ended up in the discussion too briefly). I'm hesitant to classlead anything myself, but I guess I probably should have, if for nothing else than to see the responses.
    PraxidesAtalkezDochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:
    Amranu said:
    @Tael realistically the problem with large mana pools nullifying Blademaster as a threat largely has to do with clot being a flat amount of mana per use (although they also get a percentage of mana through impaleslash).
    Tael said:
    thanks to clot not having any kind of scaling based on mana pool
    As for how much of a problem it is, Atalkez was talking about how killing Jhui was functionally impossible - not just more effort, but actually not possible in any remotely realistic scenario. It may not be a very widespread problem and it may affect very few opponents, but I think it's still a problem. And it's a problem that should be pretty easy to solve without buffing the class against people who aren't in that very small category.

    I think it's a combination of large mana pools (making the flat part of the cost very low both in terms of proportion of the pool and how many clots each mana sip amounts to) and also artefacts that make mana expenditure and recovery less costly. Robes of the Magi seem like the biggest offender against BM. And shaman is even worse without anything that makes clot scale like impaleslash, which is pretty sad given how many interesting strategies spiritlore clearly intends to set up around bleeding.

    In general, it seems like there's a pretty large consensus that for the most part BM needs to be toned down, and I think a really nice way to do that would be to tone it down vs most opponents and give it a little bit of love against the very high end of people who can clot through anything via mana pool, regen, sip, and mana cost reduction artefacts. It's pretty lame that a combination of artefacts like that can make you almost completely impervious as a constant, passive effect requiring no input - historically when pretty much the same problem has happened with health pools, additional mechanics have been introduced to amplify the damage like the several finishers that now scale off of torso damage or how successive BBTs stack damage until it's functionally unsurvivable regardless of health pool.

    I was hoping someone would classlead something about clotting (or at least clotting+artefacts that buff it) after that shaman thread (where BM ended up in the discussion too briefly). I'm hesitant to classlead anything myself, but I guess I probably should have, if for nothing else than to see the responses.
    I was the one that Classlead'd all but 2 of the BM classleads. I ran out of them, so couldn't get to some of the later issues. BM needs a nerf well before it ever gets a buff. Baby steps.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2015
    It seems pretty doable to me to do them at the same time - it's not at all hard to imagine pretty simple changes that would constitute a general nerf and a simultaneous buff against that tiny subset of problem cases.

    Baby steps aren't the only kind of steps. If your hands are somehow tied and they're the only steps you can take, sure - but it isn't as though classleads involve defeating a filibuster.

    I think the mentality that "BM needs a nerf well before it ever gets a buff" is disappointingly reductive - here and in a lot of balance discussions I see on the forums. Class power isn't on some single sliding scale. A class can need to be tuned down in a lot of cases and need to be tuned up in others and nothing really precludes doing those at the same time so long as you have a solid understanding of the changes you're making. Fixing the cases where BM is too strong does nothing to ameliorate the cases where BM is too weak, just like fixing the cases where BM is too weak doesn't necessarily entail worsening the situations where BM is too strong. The problems have independent causes and there are pretty clear independent solutions. No real reason not to pursue them.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2015

    Fair points. Considering I was the only one to even do BM Classleads outside of the other two that I considered troll classleads to begin with, something tells me that BM isn't as big of an issue as people thought.

    I like that you have these points to make, but my question is why didn't you do a classlead? If you felt there were issues, discussing them here does nothing to fix them. That's the entire point of classleads. Complaining about the classleads that -were- submitted, while not doing any yourself, seems contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. Not saying you are, just how that can be construed.

    I (as a lvl 3 band BM) saw issues with some of the skillset, and I classleaded ways to fix them. By no means are any of my ideas "great", simply an alternative to the status quo. I don't really think there is anything that BM "lacks", so to speak outside of a range ability. The issue of artefacts scaling too well and making a class suffer versus highly artefact'd targets is hardly limited to just Blademaster. Things were added to reduce some of this, and I figure there will be things added for Blademaster too. I didn't feel like this was the time to address it personally, so I didn't.

    In regards to the clotting issue: Anyone with Robes+Lvl 3 mana sip+Lvl 3 mana regen is basically impossible to kill with a traditional Brokenstar setup, including a torso break. This is not to say that there aren't ways around this with a bit more thinking (ice infuses, bad prioritites, quad breaks to push salve balance) - but that doesn't necessarily change the viability of it. Most people that are this artied are going to know what to do to limit your time-to-kill as far as number of twists you can get. Ie: Tumbling around walls, into wunjo/nairat, mindthrow off impale/battlecry and things of that nature, which coupled with their high mana/regen pools it essentially nullifies the attempt.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Just because my BM classlead is funny doesn't mean its troll :(
    Achimrst
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Certain aspects of BM are kinda a big issues, we've just been complaining and classleading them for so long to no avail that we've kinda given up and accepted that it's just supposed to be that way. I'll be picking it up come multi-class, can be certain of that.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Dochitha
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Blademaster doesn't need 'interesting' nerfs, it has too many things in its toolkit and they need to be significantly reduced or removed. Pretty simple.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Atalkez
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People said the exact same thing about Serpent and it got buffed instead, so who cares.

    BM prep time probably needs an increase in overall duration, and a lot of the Shindo stuff needs some love since they're mostly useless (see the shin aoe spells aside from annihilate). Don't think augmented parry needs to exist. Phoenix needs a hard cooldown. Needs a thematic evade replacement that still offers high mobility, but should be based on stance.

    Hypochondria on demand is extremely powerful, but also kind of required for non-break based locks in striking. Some alternate instakill/death path is required for striking, maybe merge deathstrike into this instead of being a behead replacement.

    We'll see, but I doubt BM will be changed much. They could very easily become unplayable with heavyhanded nerfs, and I'm certain that Makarios and co know that.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    People said the exact same thing about Serpent and it got buffed instead, so who cares.

    BM prep time probably needs an increase in overall duration, and a lot of the Shindo stuff needs some love since they're mostly useless (see the shin aoe spells aside from annihilate). Don't think augmented parry needs to exist. Phoenix needs a hard cooldown. Needs a thematic evade replacement that still offers high mobility, but should be based on stance.

    Hypochondria on demand is extremely powerful, but also kind of required for non-break based locks in striking. Some alternate instakill/death path is required for striking, maybe merge deathstrike into this instead of being a behead replacement.

    We'll see, but I doubt BM will be changed much. They could very easily become unplayable with heavyhanded nerfs, and I'm certain that Makarios and co know that.


    Blademaster locking is a gimmick, at best. Hypochondria is powerful yes, but any kind of defensiveness in response to the pommel/striking and it nullifies the entire setup. Any kind of break setup that you do is much less guaranteed than a Brokenstar setup.

    Prone parry is helpful for sure, not necessarily sure that it -needs- it, but there are several instances where it was the only way I survived setups.

    I don't think it needs Evade taken completely, no.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm surprised no one classleaded magi, the 5 hits for 7+ secs prone plus insta-kill pressure on a single leg break is pretty op against momentum classes. 

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  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I only recently came into contact with Magi, and I feel like a lot of people switched away from it after its last overhaul, so it might just be a function of obscurity. It does seem strong to me, but I'm trying to figure out optimal curing before I go complaining about it.

    As far as BM goes, I think the real issues revolve around Bands more than the class itself. Evade is pretty rough for a slow-prep class to have, especially on the momentum-based classes that revolve around stopping your escape, but I only have legitimate gripes with BM once they have a lvl 2 Band or better, where the prep time starts getting very short and the margin for error becomes sub-zero. Un-Banded/lvl 1 BMs don't bother me, but some days it feels like the only way to survive a Banded BM is to own Robes.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Intelligent pre-apply, use of icewalls, and room defense measures can all beat a BM.

    Fake tumbling is also very strong. People don't use a lot of these measures though. Unhindered, yeah you're going to have a tough time staying alive.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    BM can punish pre apply pretty hard though... plus they have firelash/evade for icewalls. I think you agree overall that BM's kit is pretty overloaded
    Atalkez
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Aerek when you're dehydrated just prio ablaze over anything else, and destroy is almost impossible (100-75% hp is 5 ablaze stacks, 74-50% hp is 4, 49-25% is 3, <25% is 2 stacks) So as long as you keep ablaze stacks low and your health high, destroy is almost impossible to pull off without Selarnia.

    For the pummel, popular tactic is to hypothermia on a broken torso (same cure, broken torso is cured before hypothermia) so keep an eye on your torso damage.
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

    Dochitha
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Atalkez Pre-apply debate aside, I'll always use gular and sometimes wunjo/nairat to stop leap, and have done that against you, personally. But once Legslash is fast enough, which seems to happen around lvl2 bands, the window of opportunity to tumble to avoid the 3rd Twist becomes about ~.5 seconds, and since you can wait until I attack to break legs, that's often physically impossible. You've been able to Evade to follow my tumbles and still nail a 3rd Twist and/or Brokenstar before I can stand. which is where my Robes-or-die comment comes from. Like I said, I think BM with level 1 Bands are good, they're scary but you can avoid them. Level 2 and above, I'll read logs of my losses to those BMs and just won't see a way that I could have survived, just not enough time to react or get away, and not enough mana/Robes to clot all that. Maybe pre-apply is the answer, but that's really risky if you catch it.

    @Tharvis That's what I was doing, and I can indeed avoid Destroy and Pummel almost permanently via that and Tumble, but that leaves me permanently prone while I stave off death. The last few fights I've had have essentially been matters of going down on that first leg break and never standing up again if the Magi chases well. That's what I have to figure out before I feel qualified to make any assessments on the class.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    AtalkezDochitha
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The problem i have with BM as a momentum class is using my entire willpower pool in less than 10 minute without being able to put any pressure on them.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    MelodieAtalkez
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2015
    Atalkez said:

    I like that you have these points to make, but my question is why didn't you do a classlead?

    I haven't been able to play much in the last month while I've been looking for a job. I'm not technically active enough to do classleads unfortunately :(
    Atalkez
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Is it a classlead to want more exits from Gare?

    Because I would really like more exits from Gare.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    MelodieShirszaeSobriquet
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    worth a try next time @Sarathai, can't make new classleads now
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

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