Cost of Dual Cutting/Blunt Arties

Exelethril

I think these are overpriced relative to other artie weapons. An artie scimitar/morning star costs as much as any other artefact weapon but two are required to be effective. So, technically same price for half the effectiveness.

Would it be fair to lower the costs on these slightly? I can see the arguments for 'No' though and I believe this might have been brought up before.

Elazar

Or make a single scim reg price and a bundled price

Tael

I remember when this was first discussed the response was that 2h combat would require swapping between the two weapons during a fight to be effective. Since that seems to mostly not be the case in practice (I think people only really use hammer for bashing, no?), it seems like this ought to be reviewed and maybe the paired weapons should come as sets or something. It's pretty lame that you have to pay twice as much right now.

There was also talk of introducing more artefact shields of different types that would mean SnB people would be paying more for a "full weapon set" too, which never really happened either.

Exelethril

@Tael: Well, SnB doesn't need an SoA to fight optimally and 2h doesn't really benefit that much from a warhammer either, unless Infernal.

The prices are historically the same too, which made dual soulpiercers cost 3200 credits  Compared to serpent/blademaster, the price difference is rather high.

Jhui

That's not a correct comparison either because dwcs version of that is battleaxes not a 2nd scim 

Mishgul

It would be nice if there was an artefact package for each class.

"Blademaster artefact package" fixed price

armband
crit thing
health

"Apostate artefact package"

nothing because apostates op

etc

Trevize

Artefact cost variance by class has never been balanced. While I understand the desire to make it such, but I doubt that would come in the form of lowering the cost of each to the lowest - would likely involve lowering some and increasing others.

Antonius

In this case, it's not so much the variance between classes as it is between specs of a single class (well, three).

An Apostate having fewer artefacts to buy than a Knight is just one of those things. A dual cutting knight having to spend at least 1600 credits more than two-handed is just a stupid situation.

Kenway

A stupid situation made worse by the fact that a lot of the fun stuff you can do with DSL requires at least level 1s

Aerek

Yeah, can't balance the costs of artefacting all the classes, there's some pretty serious discrepancy across the Knight styles. Subjective usefulness of each weapon set aside, the cost to fully artie-up a 2H or S&B Knight is 3200cr, (4000cr if you throw in the SoA for S&B). The cost to artie-up DWC or DWB is 6400cr, and unless you think that DWC and DWB are just that much better than 2H and S&B to justify that extra $700, then that's a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Lowering the costs of scims/axes and stars/flails to 200cr, 500cr, and 1000cr for level 1, 2, and 3 weapons (about 40%) would put that total cost for a full weapon suite at 4000cr, same as S&B.

Ahmet

Aerek said:

Yeah, can't balance the costs of artefacting all the classes, there's some pretty serious discrepancy across the Knight styles. Subjective usefulness of each weapon set aside, the cost to fully artie-up a 2H or S&B Knight is 3200cr, (4000cr if you throw in the SoA for S&B). The cost to artie-up DWC or DWB is 6400cr, and unless you think that DWC and DWB are just that much better than 2H and S&B to justify that extra $700, then that's a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

Lowering the costs of scims/axes and stars/flails to 200cr, 500cr, and 1000cr for level 1, 2, and 3 weapons (about 40%) would put that total cost for a full weapon suite at 4000cr, same as S&B.

Rapiers too  

Exelethril

I like @Elazar's idea for dual cut/blunt packages. IRE might make more money, since it seems more reasonable than paying 2x the amount to reach the same level of effectiveness.

Maybe 500 for two level 1 scimitars, 1k creds for two level 2 scimitars, etc. Idk.

Noak

Exelethril said:

@Tael: Well, SnB doesn't need an SoA to fight optimally and 2h doesn't really benefit that much from a warhammer either, unless Infernal.

The prices are historically the same too, which made dual soulpiercers cost 3200 credits  Compared to serpent/blademaster, the price difference is rather high.

2h does benefit from warhammer. Not necessarily as a 2nd weapon for dual cutting perhaps, but it's definitely worth it to have both warhammer/bastard sword as 2h (especially arty-wise).

In fact, I consider warhammer essential to my combat strategies.

Trevize

Antonius said:

In this case, it's not so much the variance between classes as it is between specs of a single class (well, three).

An Apostate having fewer artefacts to buy than a Knight is just one of those things. A dual cutting knight having to spend at least 1600 credits more than two-handed is just a stupid situation.

Keep in mind I'm not against bringing the prices into range of each other. Trevize is a dual cutting runie, so it affects me too. I'm just a little surprised that it's coming up now after how long?

And as above, considering knights are traditionally dual-wield and the prices still match for them, as above I'd be surprised if dw is lowered to match 2h and not the other way around - or, perhaps, some middle ground.

edit: I do like the idea of starting artie packages per class, however. Interesting concept.

Tael

Trevize said:
I'm just a little surprised that it's coming up now after how long?

It's been brought up several times. I remember people bringing it up before the knight changes, it was brought up at least twice while the knight changes were first going on, and it's been brought up at least one time since, not including this thread.

Trevize

Tael said:

Trevize said:
I'm just a little surprised that it's coming up now after how long?

It's been brought up several times. I remember people bringing it up before the knight changes, it was brought up at least twice while the knight changes were first going on, and it's been brought up at least one time since, not including this thread.

I don't mean in the short time since the knight changes, I mean class variation as a whole over the course of the game.

I realize we're talking about specs of a class, and not different classes, but I don't see a huge difference. Others do though, so I also realize I may be in the minority in that viewpoint.

Cooper

I brought it up in the ACC forums during testing, Makarios's response was:

Two handed guys will find they get a lot of benefits out of owning both types of weapons, since each have their own set of advantages. Not required by any means, but it'll be a lot more diverse tactics wise. Not sure if most people (outside of the really hardcore spenders) would pick up an artie one of both, but its something we'll watch.

Tael

Even if there's a benefit to having both types, it seems pretty clear that the benefit has turned out to be substantially lesser than having two artefact weapons for dual-cutting for instance.

Antonius

I'd say the benefit to buying a second artefact weapon as two-handed is probably about the same - maybe a liiiittle bit more - as picking up a third artefact weapon as a dual cutting knight, so it's still a 1600 credit (minimum) difference between the two specs.

If you want every artefact weapon available for your spec, two-handed costs you 3200, dual cutting is twice that at 6400; I can't personally say I see the need to own two level three artefact battleaxes (or more than one battleaxe period) as a heavily artied dual cutting Knight, though. Dual blunt is probably the worst, since it seems like there definitely would be a benefit to having four weapons for that spec, though I don't have enough experience to say that with 100% certainty.

Exelethril

Bump.

700 creds for level 1 effectiveness too expensive.

Valkyn

Lash, Dirk, Shield, Bow. Serpents hurt the pocket, but at least we can skip buying wings?

Trevize

Valkyn said:

Lash, Dirk, Shield, Bow. Serpents hurt the pocket, but at least we can skip buying wings?

Give everyone else a phase artie and we'll call it even.

Trey

Screw phase. WTB Infernal w/ evade

Ahmet

Trey said:

Screw phase. WTB Infernal w/ evade

Screw evade. WTB Bard with worm sources.

Atalkez

You're all crazy.

Dash is that shit

Trevize

Atalkez said:

You're all crazy.

Dash is that shit

(anklet of dashing is a thing)

Dunn

Or gallop.

Szanthax

I'll buy locket of learn2pk for 1000 Alex...serious