Clan system updates

Tecton

We're going to be adding some more functionality/options for clans over the next couple of weeks, so I've opened up this thread for any suggestions of things that you would like to see added to these organisations. 

Some options we're currently considering are:

• Open clans - ones that people can join without an invitation.
• Family clans - allowing clan leaders to recognise progenitors of a family line, as well as allowing family clan members to append the family name as a suffix with a command.
• Allowing clans to purchase a news wipe.
• Allowing clans to more efficiently buy clan history.
• **POTENTIALLY** Adding clan ownership for housing (Very big "maybe" here folks, don't get your hopes up too much.)

So post up any thoughts below, and we will see what works for implementation!

Melodie

All of my yes, especially for the second and last one!

Tael

I really, really like the second one, particularly the ability to automatically suffix the last name. Can the "last name" be distinct from the "suffix" though - just add a new field for last name? People who aren't part of a family clan can still use the suffix to add a last name like right now, but people who are part of a family clan wouldn't have to worry about further suffixes overwriting their surname or anything like that. Also, I feel like it should probably be the case that multiple clans can suffix the same last name. It seems a lot more interesting if "branches" that have grown apart can have separate clans and the same last name than if they couldn't - imagine the Lichlords have a big family in Mhaldor and then one defects to Targossas and eventually founds a big family there that grows large enough to have its own clan and all that, so you have two branches at odds with one another. I think the game should support that sort of thing, not restrict it.

And housing would be very neat, though I can see how that would be a big project. If you're going to do it, my suggestion would be to create an investable power to BEGIN CONSTRUCTION TO THE EAST or whatever and then any member can CONTRIBUTE 50 STONE TO EAST or something like that and clans can work together to construct rooms - Warframe does something like this with its clan halls and it works really well. Then maybe an investable power to DECORATE which would allow changing descriptions and to FURNISH which would allow dropping furniture.

And open clans is a welcome addition. Being able to just tell people to join the HTML5 clan will be really nice, rather than telling them to find someone to induct them. It would be especially nice if there were an option to use the permissions system to define who can just join too - if Mhaldor could allow only Mhaldorians to freely join the VBC for instance.

But I think the really huge outstanding problem for clans is still leaders going dormant. Democratic clans help somewhat, but it isn't hard to imagine a person not wanting to set a clan to democratic, but also not wanting the clan to be relegated to the dustbin in their absence. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to want.

One would think that the system of positions and INVEST would allow a clan to be run in the leader's absence, but the restrictions on what can be invested are, I think, unnecessarily conservative. A clan's structure, for instance, might need to change due to game-wide changes (autoclass, for instance, certainly necessitated some changes in certain clans' structures). It would be great if those restrictions on INVEST were either lifted (aside from dissolve and transfer ownership) or if there were some way to appoint "coleaders" who had all clan powers aside from dissolve and transfer ownership.

Then just throw a line into the help file that it's against the rules to use this to steal clans by totally changing what they were for before the creator left.

If someone does use this to steal clans, a simple ISSUE should solve the problem pretty quickly. I can't imagine that it would happen often enough to really be considered such a burden that such strong limitations need to be hardcoded in, particularly when the limitations end up killing a lot of very old clans with a lot of history when the leaders go dormant and the ability of the clan to keep pace with the times is suddenly hamstrung. The cost to the game of losing those old clans seems a lot higher than the cost of an issue or two once every blue moon (and anyone who would flagrantly abuse this to steal a clan is probably not someone you want in the game anyway).

Kayeil

Not too crazy about the idea of open clans. Especially for OOC ones, it's not like there aren't enough toxic gossip clans as it is. Maybe limit it to certain types of IC clans instead. The rest sounds great, though.

I'd like to see more functionality for organizing a clan. The other day I created a new title in my clan for someone, but to put it in a certain order I had to delete other titles and re-add people to them. It should be easier to put titles/ranks in a certain order like how we are able to organize our clans by number if we choose to.

Tael

Another way to solve the dormant leader problem that might actually be even simpler would be the ability to designate a "successor" - someone who has the option to take the reins, but only if the clan leader goes dormant. Basically, as a clan leader, you could set up an "in case of dormancy, transfer the clan to this person" contingency.

Tecton

A big problem with successors is that people need to keep them updated. I've been pondering some form of contesting for clan leadership in non-democratic clans should the leader reach a certain point of inactivity. Alongside this, we could potentially have some mechanism in place to recognise the replaced clan leader, so they can resume leadership when they get back (with lead-in times and activity requirements, most likely).

Kayeil

I should add about the open clans and the OOC ones that are really toxic... they practically have almost no oversight, just depends on the clan leader I guess. Way more toxic than anything I've seen on forums, hence the reason I'm not in any right now because it's just depressing to listen to all day.

As for successors and replacing clan leaders, that option still should be left to the clan leader to be able to toggle on or off. With my OOC clan where my close friends and I just talk or work on stuff together, I don't see a reason why any of them would need to contest me and take over. 

Ahmet

I support every single one of those bullet points!

Yay for clan news wipes!

Atalkez

Easy to stay away from the toxic ones if you want.

@Tecton any chance of maybe increasing the stock number of clans you can have?

Inuad

I'd like to see clans have the ability to create projects.

Jurixe

Like Tael, a big fan of #2 and housing. Would like it if the suffix by #2 could be recognised as a 'registered' surname as well perhaps by colour or some document at the clan headquarters (or other method) else there's not much difference from getting some random CR4 to title you as is currently, besides giving the clan leader suffix privileges. I'm not necessarily against a 'breakout' clan, but I feel there definitely should be ways to make it distinct which clan they come from, otherwise there's no point.

Personal opinion as well but I do think that people should be given incentive to put effort into founding their own name, rather than just running away with one. I spent a lot of time devising and building up lore and tradition for my surname, though, which I recognise may not be the case for all names, so I'm perhaps biased in wanting to protect my work - and this is an entirely different discussion.

Housing, badly want housing. Would like options to designate room building/furniture location privileges to clan members, perhaps in the same way cities work now (ie those at a particular position can place furniture). Perhaps you could designate members as 'owners' of certain rooms and/or doors, allowing them to set privs and such as well.

Would be nice also to be able to link plots that belong to clan members if they wish, giving more reason to own multiple plots and making it a real physical community. 

Please allow the clan members to share privileges like stables. That is really the only reason I would ever get one as I am not a mount collector.

If this goes in, pleaseeeee give us a one time option to designate already existing houses as our clan houses. I have a house that I've already invested a lot in for the clan and I would hate to see it go to waste simply because it was built at the wrong time.

I'd also really love some kind of a clan token that lets you return to the doorstep of your clan housing once a month, but that's perhaps just wishful thinking! 

Tahquil

For those worried about toxic Ooc clans being open perhaps have a clan have to petition admin for open status like high clans and have them listed somewhere. I can see how having God pre-order clans and client clans more easily accessible could help.

Dortheron

Clans are designed to be naturally exclusive. Normally someone has to find someone who can induct them, sometimes just one person and other times everyone can. Part of this exclusiveness is security: anyone who is toxic, vocal, argumentive, or just plain horrible can be muted and/or kicked. Open clans would lose some of this security.

But what purpose would there be to open clans? I can only think of two answers:

• Community help clans (Mudlet, VIP, SVO, etc). There are often people asking on Market, Newbie, and other channels about being invited to these type of clans for questions and help they might have. The people in these are generally helpful and friend, with only minor oversight required. Player appointed Mods or passive monitoring by celani might all be required
• organizational tied clans. Most commonly seen with Houses, these clans are places for requirements or other files/talking that aren't necessary or appropriate for the main house channels. These would not be truely "open" clans as it would require active membership in the bound house. But auto or self induction could be used and monitored by house leaders. Best thing about this might be that if a new leader takes over the house, the clans follow suit and change leadership as well so you don't get any stranded clans because the last leader went dormant with five clans and no way to give them away.
  

Another idea is to make a flag or options for "clubs" or recreational  for ooc clans. These would show a different list with the possibility of "private" or "public" clans being seen. Lets say wanna join a Chess club, or one that's only for fishing. The clan leader would flag it as a club, and could now be seen in a list with CLAN SEARCH CLUBS or something similar. I would still have to ask for an invitiation to join, but I wouldn't see a huge list of org clans, family clans, ic clans, or clans of other purposes.

@Jurixe if they were to make that, it would have to work something similar to ship tokens I think. Long cooldown, channel time, have to be full health/mana, not on mono, etc. Also possible problem with enemy infiltration, which is why it's likely not to happen

Shirszae

I don't see why it needs to be that complicated. Just let the clan leader decide whether he or she wants the clan to be open or not. 

As for enemy infiltrations, perhaps make it so that people can't warp to the clan house if they are enemied to the city hosting said clan. Simple.

Blujixapug

Let clans create more than 10 positions.

In many cases when you start structuring a hierarchy and assigning privs to different positions 10 positions is not enough. For example you probably want a position for the leader, one for HM/CM, one for secretaries/council members, one for novice aides, and one for unassigned new members: 5 positions. Then maybe you want to create 2-4 advancement paths relating to different activities, which each have a beginner/intermediate/master stage: 6-12 more positions. You can organise your members in other ways, but it would be nice if you could sort ranks via positions, with corresponding clan privs.

Clan housing sounds really cool. Clan ownership of designs, clan-owned pets to serve as mascots, clan vendors selling clan cocktails. Clan secret handshakes, clan private contracts. Clan conspiracies, clan trade monopolies, clan tontines, clan pyramid schemes, clan bargains with dark powers, clan suicide pacts...

Jonathin

Whytf are people worrying about gossip & whatever? It's not like it's going to change. The gossip mongers are already in clans spreading rumors and whatnot.

If your finger hurts, the answer is not to cut off your arm.

Jhaeli

Tecton said: A big problem with successors is that people need to keep them updated. I've been pondering some form of contesting for clan leadership in non-democratic clans should the leader reach a certain point of inactivity. Alongside this, we could potentially have some mechanism in place to recognise the replaced clan leader, so they can resume leadership when they get back (with lead-in times and activity requirements, most likely).

I realise I'm a bit late to the discussion, so forgive me, but I thought I'd venture to add that you could also separate "ownership" and "leadership", similar to how a House/City can own a clan now and designate a new leader. The person who owns the clan could obviously hold both positions, but it leaves a way for there to be a leader without the owner losing their monetary investment, if that is an issue. You could also hold elections for leader and have the mechanisms in place for owners to re-assume the mantle, if need be, when they become active again.

For open clans, you could make it so that when a person is kicked from an open clan, they have to be manually re-invited in order to join once more, preventing the unwanted from simply coming back on their own.

I very much like the idea of "surname" being a separate category from "suffix", as it would better survive changes, such as quitting cities, Houses, and so forth. And while I'm not sure I would personally invest in it, clan housing would be fantastic. I know several clans - not just Family ones - that would love to benefit from it.

Nizana

I know that in Imperian, for family clan things, when someone becomes inactive leadership of it defaults to the next most family member in the chain, starting with parents, then going to children, and so on and so forth effectively cycling through each family member on that 'level'. You can also manually pass leadership, too, so that's a thing.

Kakotas

Tecton said:

A big problem with successors is that people need to keep them updated. I've been pondering some form of contesting for clan leadership in non-democratic clans should the leader reach a certain point of inactivity. Alongside this, we could potentially have some mechanism in place to recognise the replaced clan leader, so they can resume leadership when they get back (with lead-in times and activity requirements, most likely).

Would this mean for Family clans that it gets passed down the family line as patriarch/matriarch as the older ones age out? (Until of course they wake up again if they ever do). I'm asking because that is the way my family clan is setup but we've never been able to pass down the line the clan. (Important with all the housing changes that went on and the family estate etc).

I love the being able to surname. That has been sticky for years and needs to happen.

Zuko

@Tecton a big one for me, running an IC clan that sizes over 100+, would be the ability to CLAN POSITION MOVEUP/MOVEDOWN <Clan position # or name>.

This would be exactly the same as CLAN MOVEUP/MOVEDOWN function for someone's personal CLANS list, except for it refers to a specific clan's positions. 

so if for..

The Dean of The Targossian Academy is Aarashi Shamshir Zuko Shu'in, the Ivory Shepherd.

The leadership positions are:

Patrons

   Deucalion and Aurora

Lumarchs

   Halos, Aodfionn, Dannyl, Siduri, and Micaelis

Professors

   Lace, Halos, Carmell, Magenta, Rohai, Aodfionn, Garis, Evandiel,

   Ada, Siduri, and Zuko

Orientation Leaders

   Lace, Rinna, Sorendheim, Azyre, Lighden, Kyr, Zyare, Magenta,

   Rohai, Braiden, Synbios, Devildor, Orthiel, Taell, Evandiel,

   Mingmei, Zarem, Elawien, Tibitha, Alcaro, Saeryna, Catty,

   Relenna, and Aneevah

Counselors

   Carmell, Havyn, Ashden, Anedhel, Kard, Brogeta, Rohai, Ruca,

   Garis, Greys, Ada, and Siduri

Occupation Overseers

   Rohai, Draekar, Greys, Siduri, and Zuko

Students

   A bunch of spammy names

Prefects

   Magenta

There are 107 active members in this clan.

I executed CLAN POSITIONS MOVEUP <PREFECTS/9>, CLHELP would now reflect that position above Students, and move everyone appointed to that position with it.

So CLHELP TTA would then look like..

The Dean of The Targossian Academy is Aarashi Shamshir Zuko Shu'in, the Ivory Shepherd.

The leadership positions are:

Patrons

   Deucalion and Aurora

Lumarchs

   Halos, Aodfionn, Dannyl, Siduri, and Micaelis

Professors

   Lace, Halos, Carmell, Magenta, Rohai, Aodfionn, Garis, Evandiel,

   Ada, Siduri, and Zuko

Orientation Leaders

   Lace, Rinna, Sorendheim, Azyre, Lighden, Kyr, Zyare, Magenta,

   Rohai, Braiden, Synbios, Devildor, Orthiel, Taell, Evandiel,

   Mingmei, Zarem, Elawien, Tibitha, Alcaro, Saeryna, Catty,

   Relenna, and Aneevah

Counselors

   Carmell, Havyn, Ashden, Anedhel, Kard, Brogeta, Rohai, Ruca,

   Garis, Greys, Ada, and Siduri

Occupation Overseers

   Rohai, Draekar, Greys, Siduri, and Zuko

Prefects

   Magenta

Students

   A bunch of spammy names

There are 107 active members in this clan.

Honestly the functional side of the command is just for hierarchy/making CLHELP <clan> prettier and less chaotic.

But none-the-less useful! For example when I made some Academy changes over the summer, moving every student over from position 6 to position 7 was a hassle!

Just an idea, thanks!

Lithorin

Kayeil said:

I should add about the open clans and the OOC ones that are really toxic... they practically have almost no oversight, just depends on the clan leader I guess. Way more toxic than anything I've seen on forums, hence the reason I'm not in any right now because it's just depressing to listen to all day.

As for successors and replacing clan leaders, that option still should be left to the clan leader to be able to toggle on or off. With my OOC clan where my close friends and I just talk or work on stuff together, I don't see a reason why any of them would need to contest me and take over. 

The thing about "toxic" gossip clans is that they are optional. If you dont like them leave. That's no reason to try to restrict people who do like them from using them. Why not make them open. Its not as though having them become open will force you to join it. Basically the overallessage I get from your objection is, I don't like these so no one should be able to freely use them. 

Aside from the gossip clans having open clans can make mudlet and svo clans easier to join instead of newbies having to ask on the mebiew channel for someone to induct them

Lithorin

Shirszae said:

I don't see why it needs to be that complicated. Just let the clan leader decide whether he or she wants the clan to be open or not. 

As for enemy infiltrations, perhaps make it so that people can't warp to the clan house if they are enemied to the city hosting said clan. Simple.

Agreed except why restrict it to cities hosting clans. Say I want to start a seafaring clan for a group of people I should be able to makeca clan head quarters on my ship it has housing available. This game already makes it hard enough on people who don't want to join a city. Having to ask a divine to give you a title. Higher bank fees and a whole host of other disadvantages. Why add one more to the list. I like being cityless I just don't see a reason to exclude those of us who have made that choice

Kondar

I especially would LOVE for clans to own houses, and it would be awesome if some of the upgrades would work for anyone in the clan, specifically the Stable. I've been building a house in the Eleusian Subdivisions, but marking it as a "Family House" It's a pain honestly being the only one that can build rooms when new members come about, or add door perms. Managing a 28 room house for a family, being the only one that can do everything is a pain for me, and anyone else who needs to maybe add quick perms but has to wait for me to come around. Adding a Surename to the family clan would be awesome. Would Family clans be ones that don't take up a clan slot?

Valkyn

@Kondar you can make a door open to any members of a clan, and then let others induct to that clan. It's not the same as being able to place items and make rooms, but it can at least get people perms to open doors.

Kondar

@Valkyn Yeah that could work. I think I'm just complaining because I'm the only one that can add stuff to the house, even though it's technically a "Family House" It's a lot of work!

Valkyn

I agree, it's not ideal. I've had to do it before, and you end up with the house falling apart if the 'owner' goes dormant, unless you've had literally thousands of credits to sink into adding furniture stasis to all the rooms.

Jurixe

With the retirement mechanic now in place and the news that your house is destroyed upon retirement, I feel that it is more relevant now than ever to discuss clan-related property ownership. So many houses are built to share with family and friends, decked out with features and non decay items to be conversation points and as a role play setting to gather at.

I'm sure many, including myself, would much rather that these properties and their contents be passed down to other people, particularly where families are concerned. Is this going to be something available at some stage?

Sobriquet

Might be worth adding some sort of INHERIT style command to pass some of these things over before a retirement. Would clearly need to be strict rules on this to make sure Arties and such aren't given away (Sorry Kiet , #nolvl2veilforyou  ). But passing over of clans and group owned properties might work

Kiet

              

Kakotas

Inheritances have been a really sticky issue for a long time with clans. It really needs to be a thing but it isn't most of the time.

Anatral

I just created a family clan and am generally underwhelmed, though the initiative is certainly positive. At present family clans give some small adminstrative features (auto-titling, democracy) and a nice RP thing (FAMILY LIST) giving an esteem to the whole endeavour, but not much more. Some early thoughts:

• Could family clans be allowed to attune their own totems (please). 
• Family clans owning housing would be extremely convenient. Maybe after approval? i.e. one-room subs houses maybe not, but sprawling estates, (eg @kondar's for example) or out of subs (which cost a fortune anyway)?
• Might clt history be given automatically to family clans? Dropping another 500,000 on that is unappealing.