[Discuss!] A single new conflict mechanic to replace/expand shrines.

Kuy

Jhui said:

all that shrine's need are very small tweaks.  It serves it's purpose as an instantaneous conflict starter via defiling and a way to get non-coms involved via hunting corpses.

Developers would better spend their time fleshing out a new cool daily conflict mechanism (maybe new icon thingy) that doesn't require a player to initiate it.  I get tired of logging in for conflict, creating that conflict, and getting verbally berated for being an inconvenience... Let's take some of this out of the player's hands plz.

I have an idea, but I'll flesh it out before posting it.

Mishgul

? I feel like your post was a bit of a waste. You could have waited and then posted it all at once.

Ahmet

Yeah, this is already being discussed in another thread :surprised: 

Kuy

Hokay.  I will just post long-winded spiel there instead of trying to be courteous

Ethoas

I had once played a MUD that's entire pvp existence was based around an endless (and it never got boring, not once in my 8 years of playing) game of KotH, similar to Achaea's Icons, just not static. The slight difference from Achaea was that the MUD was entirely focused on PvP and the community was more than happy to engage in conflict, so the dynamic was tailored specifically for this purpose. A fun factoid--the game was the basis for what later became Dark Age of Camelot.

There were three factions (was a faction versus faction game), and these little things called idols--figurines that represented different gods (and in this game, different bonuses to stats, health/mana, experience). Every faction's city had a nice little room in which these Idols could be placed. When a faction was in possession of one or all, they received a corresponding bonus (+1 to all stats, bonus to hp, mana, endurance, willpower, or a bonus to experience). Now, you couldn't just waltz into said room a grab them. Only certain classes with the necessary ability could actually 'get them' once in the room, so the raiding dynamic was more or less, "We must defend this player and get him or her there, so they can do their job." Class-roles were very much an integral part of achieving goals.

Anyway, this system served as a great catalyst for conflict and provided the necessary incentive. Raiding was frequent, sometimes alliances were formed in order to take down the faction who had been possessing them the longest. Sometimes political agreements were made and the idols were distributed equally for a time, in exchange for bashing rights to different territories etc. etc. etc., and sometimes one faction reigned supreme for a while.

Now before you say lolso much potential for zero balance, lolAshtan will have idols forevar, lolwhat happens to Hashan, and lolhave you heard of Cyrene?--bear in mind, I was part of the faction that was the underdog, severely. It was more or less about 40-55 players respectively versus our barely 20 active players for the bulk of those 8 years of play-time.

More than a few times we had the idols for extended periods of time, and defended them quite well. Communication and teamwork played a large role in that. There were also times in which we would strategically grab only one of the idols, and do our best to keep it (whichever one would provide most useful to us at the time).

Also, I think it's worth noting, that often PvP situations in Achaea are nowhere near as skewed as the forums sometimes would like to make them seem (and by that I mean there is a king-city reigning supreme all the time, forevar and evar and evar). I've found myself in very fair fights against all of the conflict-engaging factions before, and I've also found myself on the totally unbalanced end of things before (well coordinated ganks, Targ and CO. rolling 12+ deep to fight 3-6 people near defendable, or simply flying to clouds to web gank one person, Mhaldor doing similar things but not necessarily as extreme, etc. etc. etc., having a room destroyed, getting raided and not being able to do anything about it). But fair fights exist and have taken place on numerous occasions, casualties on both sides, and eventually one prevailing due to the other's mistake, rightfully so. An implementation of something like this wouldn't suddenly make fights any less fair or less balanced--the fights would still have the similar ebb and flow of such, just perhaps conflict itself would occur more often.

There were a few catches, however, that differ from Achaea. The EXP system in that game, for example. You would only lose exp in non-pvp situations. IE: hunting. In PvP, you did not lose experience, but you lost a constitution point for every PvP related death (hint, goldsink). To restore your constitution, you'd have to seek out an NPC and pay what we called a 'con bill.' A point or two was negligible--15 minutes of bashing if that worth of gold. But when you started getting into the -5 stat point zone, bills became expensive (consider a few hours worth of bashing). Many players were fine with this, even when they were at a distinct disadvantage (I had a conbill one time that would be Achaea's equivalent of about 2.5 million), if you were to compare them to Achaean players. It was OPEN PK, anywhere, at anytime, for any reason. Bashing for your con bill posed a risk, even if you were one of the ones who didn't really involve themselves in conflict, for you could potentially lose time, or lose experience, or both (depending on how you died. Mob versus Player). You could also have your gear completely looted--it was not a very 'soft' game. Losing text-xp was almost always at the bottom of your list of worries.

I think the above could be a neat dynamic for Achaea. It would potentially combine the two stages that exist in the realm and create a symbiotic relationship. You could have non-coms help bash and donate to a city's 'pvp stat trust fund,' so to speak (because if a city posesses idols gained from conflict, its citizens in total receive the benefits, and of course that would not suddenly flag them as open-pk or whatever, they're just bashing), so it helps bring in both the PvP crowd and the PvE crowd. Con bills wouldn't be a huge issue, if something like that were in place. And if you were to remove exp loss from PvP situations only, and not bashing situations (like sanctioned raids already do?), you may find more people willing to engage or dabble in conflict. This perhaps could open others up to different areas they may have otherwise avoided, and thus making for a better and more wholesome game experience for them. It could also alleviate a lot of tension that arises on the PvP stage amongst the regulars--frustration from getting steamrolled out of nowhere, or from expecting a fair fight and never getting one. It'd be a little more casual, a little more looser, and perhaps somewhat more rewarding, due to things being a little less serious and more consistent. Also, the conflict is cyclical, adding to the 'end-game.'

On the other-hand, that's not to say PvP was without its reward (besides Idols). For every kill, you received 'pvp experience.' For this game, it was mostly a badge of honor--you'd rank up in a system and get a special title, which basically said, "I have done this well on the battlefield, fear me." A bit childish, and lacking in depth, so I am sure in today's world it could certainly be expanded upon, but at the time, it was more than enough of a reward since the bulk of us were just interested in raiding/solo-raiding/ganking/dueling/what-have-you.

For a city like Cyrene, since their mythos is one of peace, you could offer them something akin to permanent idols that are their own to possess, idols they would forfeit the moment they ceased being peaceful. And for an underdog like Hashan, you could give them incentive to form a very casual and basic alliance with another faction that seems somewhat aligned with their goals, and give them the same benefits of idols, when their ally is in possession of them, until they are strong enough to stand independently. Or you could offer them something similar to Cyrene--I don't know. I am just tossing ideas out for the sake of brainstorming.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. The game which utilized this dynamic was one of the best and most fun games I've ever played (even compared to those that have graphics). The conflict never got boring, there were always new challenges and strategies to consider, and every person in the faction was always involved in some way shape or form, and yes that means the non-coms.


*EDIT: now that I've feeling nostalgic and thinking about that game, one clear problem would be guards. In that game, there were no such thing as guards (a concept I am not very fond of since it detracts from a 'gaming experience' and player versus player conflict, and is often used as a skill-less crutch). Anyone could move freely within cities. There was just one safe room indigenous to a faction that allowed only members of that faction to enter. Non-faction members would instantly die. The guard system would have to be re-looked at to a certain extent, otherwise you'd end up having a city get idols and place 20+ guards outside of the room to prevent anyone from getting to it, thus stopping the game entirely, and the fun.

Medi

Make the new Nishnatoba area that Kuy suggested could be the idol stuff, so no guards, and people can choose to enter a free-pk no xp-loss (or minimal or w/e) area. Though it sounds like people would have to be there to guard the idol. And having them open up for attack at a certain designated time didn't seem to be much fun with the icons.

Could have it work with the new relics and designate a person in the city to carry it around (because we should promote more afking on guardstacks!) and when slain the relic/idol returns to the Nish area, where people can fight for it.

Halos

In the interest of efficiency and forums attention spans, can we get a tl;dr for posts longer than 3 paragraphs, pls.

Ethoas

Halos said:

In the interest of efficiency and forums attention spans, can we get a tl;dr for posts longer than 3 paragraphs, pls.

If you're too lazy to read something, or just that uninterested, either 1. don't read it, or 2. don't bother partaking in a discussion, or 3. both 1. and 2. Problem solved.

Borran

So... instead of having Icons in Nishnatoba, you'd have "holy lands" and you achieve power by placing a miniature icon on that land and holding it?

Ethoas

Medi said:

Make the new Nishnatoba area that Kuy suggested could be the idol stuff, so no guards, and people can choose to enter a free-pk no xp-loss (or minimal or w/e) area. Though it sounds like people would have to be there to guard the idol. And having them open up for attack at a certain designated time didn't seem to be much fun with the icons.

Could have it work with the new relics and designate a person in the city to carry it around (because we should promote more afking on guardstacks!) and when slain the relic/idol returns to the Nish area, where people can fight for it.

Not a bad idea. I have also thought about what if they made another Nish area with similar mechanics, however I think it falls short. You might as well just create another bashing-ground like Annwyn or Underworld, because those areas already provide the conflict that another 'realm' like Nish would provide.

Adding the idol dynamic: in order to guard the idol, you'd more or less have to camp it, and it would most likely be an off-plane thing, thus forcing you to remove yourself from the rest of the playerbase for prolonged periods of time.

I'd prefer a nice game of capture the flag, or king of the hill, over something close to a free for all in an off-plane area, since if I want the latter, I can just circle in and out of Annwyn/Underworld. There is longevity in the former, and nothing new in the latter.

Ethoas

Borran said:

So... instead of having Icons in Nishnatoba, you'd have "holy lands" and you achieve power by placing a miniature icon on that land and holding it?

  That could be one way of interpreting it, or employing a similar concept, yes. The only difference would be said areas are less secure than cities, and therefore you'd see exchanges happen more frequently. Sometimes without struggle.

Halos

Ethoas said:

Halos said:

In the interest of efficiency and forums attention spans, can we get a tl;dr for posts longer than 3 paragraphs, pls.

If you're too lazy to read something, or just that uninterested, either 1. don't read it, or 2. don't bother partaking in a discussion, or 3. both 1. and 2. Problem solved.

roger roger

Medi

@Ethoas I agree, having to camp it would ruin it. It could be that the idols/relics reset to the area, and the areas are only accessible at certain periods, like serenade (Or alternate so every timezone has a chance). I like the idea of this over annwyn/uw because no mobs/forest defs to interfere.

Tharvis

@Ethoas at the comment of 20+ guards in a room, max guards placed in a room is 5 (+guardian, if applicable).
Though you could have 15+ constable-types within call for help range, I suppose...