Serpent Combat: Only pay to win?

Kagaato

Hey everyone.

I'm Kagaato, I just recently joined Cyrene and am looking to learn some Serpent combat. But unfortunately, from what I have gathered, Serpent locking is pretty much a "pay to win feature", and the most crucial aspect to their combat. Is this true? 

I was told dexterity is what decides doublestab speed, so to spec dexterity, dexterity, dexterity.

But without any artefacts, is a lock possible even if the opponent is using server-side curing? Or is Serpent combat a no go and I should try to find a different class?

Aerek

It's absolutely possible. Whoever you were talking to might have been referencing top-tier combat, where yes, trying to compete as a Serpent without an artefact dirk would be punishing, but if you're just dipping your toes in the water or aiming for reasonable competence, don't be discouraged. And honestly the much simpler Darkshade loop will kill a lot of people easier than locking, when you're starting out.

That said, it is true that artefact Dirks have a larger impact on Serpents than most other artefacts have on their respective classes. I have felt that they're a little disproportionately awesome, and that Dex should factor in more heavily than the Dirks should, so unartefacted Serpents don't feel so discouraged.

Kagaato

So it's possible to be reasonably successful as a combatant @Aerek? She had said she was never able to lock anybody once against server-side

Antidas

It is definitely possible, yes - not to mention you can very nearly reach dstab cap without ever purchasing an artefact, assuming you spec dexterity over constitution whenever possible. This means that your offense can be nearly as potent as someone who has purchased artifacts to help them out. The only difference will be that you have to sacrifice survivability to do it, while they don't.

I will be very blunt and say that there's not a whole lot of skilled combatants in Cyrene who really know what they're talking about. There's certainly a few, such as @Iocun or @Tynil, or even @Nim. But for the most part, if you're looking to learn how to fight, Cyrene's probably not going to have a lot of people who can help.

Cynlael

Kagaato said:

So it's possible to be reasonably successful as a combatant @Aerek? She had said she was never able to lock anybody once against server-side

Whoever said that is really not doing it right. You can easily lock with just 15dex if you know what you're doing, and have the right abilities. You'll need levels though, to have a decent health pool against stuff like knights / sylvans / monks.

Arditi

To be fair, Serpent is also one of the most technical classes in Achaea. It's not as linear as other classes, which makes it difficult to learn. The plus side to that is that a good Serpent is scary as hell and you have one of the largest bags of tricks to pull from.

Persistence is key. Don't be a scrub like me and give up.

Jarrod

Antidas said:

It is definitely possible, yes - not to mention you can very nearly reach dstab cap without ever purchasing an artefact, assuming you spec dexterity over constitution whenever possible. This means that your offense can be nearly as potent as someone who has purchased artifacts to help them out. The only difference will be that you have to sacrifice survivability to do it, while they don't.

I will be very blunt and say that there's not a whole lot of skilled combatants in Cyrene who really know what they're talking about. There's certainly a few, such as @Iocun or @Tynil, or even @Nim. But for the most part, if you're looking to learn how to fight, Cyrene's probably not going to have a lot of people who can help.

The bolded isn't even remotely true.

You're pretty far from the cap without arties, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to succeed. Without arties, you'll generally be stacking an extra herb one every two or two every three dstabs (aka they'll eat two herbs between dstabs every 2nd/3rd one) as opposed to dstab cap where you can get ahead of herb balance on the first dstab with good balance ticks. It's rough being an unartied Serpent, there's no denying that, but it's workable. On the upside, your flay speeds won't be affected so you won't lose momentum any more than an artied Serpent whenever your opponent plays defensively (assuming you don't waste balance hitting rebound/shield).

Fortunately, Serpent combat, on a 1v1 level, is pretty diverse if you can't beat an opponent with 3-4 dstabs, so if you can stay on a target you have lots of options. It's nice because most of them synergize very well, meaning you can setup multiple kill strategies to be 'going off' at the same time, making it very difficult for an opponent to escape if you get the proper setup.

Down the line, a level 1 Dirk (350cr) is a huge boon towards getting those faster dstabs, and is relatively cheap to work towards with bashing/house+city credit sales.

Santar

I swapped my offense over to a normal dirk for a few minutes.

I only have 15 dex, which is lower than what an unartied person would go for. An unartied person would go for 16.

I was able to lock someone without much trouble through both passive curing and rebounding.

My dstab speed was about 2.4 seconds. It'd be 2.3 seconds if I had the proper 16 dex. It's definitely doable. You won't be competitive at top tier with that speed, but you can still fight and lock people. Especially people at your skill level.

So yeah, Serpent is definitely 'viable' even without artefacts, at 15 dex. Most people aren't any good at locking, but that doesn't mean it's not viable.

Severina

Cynlael said:

Kagaato said:

So it's possible to be reasonably successful as a combatant @Aerek? She had said she was never able to lock anybody once against server-side

Whoever said that is really not doing it right. You can easily lock with just 15dex if you know what you're doing, and have the right abilities. You'll need levels though, to have a decent health pool against stuff like knights / sylvans / monks.

Logosian or bust. I've been managing with 15 dex as a Siren, no artefacts, and locks are manageable if difficult, though practically speaking a lot of the folk who would get locked are the same folk that will succumb to darkshade.

My primary difficulty with being a serpent is also its biggest draw, in that you need to actively invest in learning every detail and nuance of your class abilities and make use of all of them, and then learn every other class and how to exploit them and survive against them as a serpent, especially in one on one combat. I never felt that need to learn -everything- (though I tried anyway) when I was an alchemist, e.g., I just pointed at people and they died or I did shortly thereafter.

Santar

I don't even think unartied Serpent is that bad.

It's probably a little weaker than some unartied classes, but the main problem most people are going to have is that they lack the knowledge to proper play it.

I'm willing to unartied duel anyone who wants to today. Set up my system to accomodate it. Been a lot of people complaining that unartied can't work, specifically unartied Serpent. 

Silvarien

Antidas said:

It is definitely possible, yes - not to mention you can very nearly reach dstab cap without ever purchasing an artefact, assuming you spec dexterity over constitution whenever possible. This means that your offense can be nearly as potent as someone who has purchased artifacts to help them out. The only difference will be that you have to sacrifice survivability to do it, while they don't.

I will be very blunt and say that there's not a whole lot of skilled combatants in Cyrene who really know what they're talking about. There's certainly a few, such as @Iocun or @Tynil, or even @Nim. But for the most part, if you're looking to learn how to fight, Cyrene's probably not going to have a lot of people who can help.

@Antidas : I definitely disagree, @Aodfionn and I last night came up with a way to end the threat of Ashtan ONCE AND FOR ALL. The days of Chaos are numbered, Ashtan faces certain DOOM!

Aepas

Very easy to lock people even with serverside curing, especially with all the new changes serpent has received. I'd say possibly one of the best unartied classes in game if you master the technical side of it. It just takes practice

Santar

Nah, it's not one of the 'best' unartied classes by far. All the Knight classes are a lot better and easier. Sylvan/shaman are better by far unartied. Jester is. Sentinell. Probably Priest. Definitely Magi. Definitely BM. Definitely Apostate. Definitely alchemist.


Serp is in the bottom 5 of unartied classes. There's a lot of good unartied classes now.

Aepas

Yeah, I guess taking a lot of the changes into account now it would fall off a bit. While the other classes might be a ton easier though, I'd still say it has its absolute potency in offense that can match up with most people if used right.

Aquil

I've always heard that in straight one verses one an unartied blademaster is terrible, same with Sentinel that isn't strength spec or at least has very high strength. (Not trying to compare apples to bananas here, just that they need a band or a spear to really have options)

Then again, it's not like I play either class it's just the general feed of other BM's and Sentinels that I hear. Was really hoping to duel you Santar with 15 dex and a dirk just to see how fast you'd get me! :pleased: 

Santar

Top 5 unartied classes are:

1. Jester
2. Shaman
3. Magi
4. Sentinel
5. Apostate

Cynlael

Aquil said:

I've always heard that in straight one verses one an unartied blademaster is terrible, same with Sentinel that isn't strength spec or at least has very high strength. (Not trying to compare apples to bananas here, just that they need a band or a spear to really have options)

Then again, it's not like I play either class it's just the general feed of other BM's and Sentinels that I hear. Was really hoping to duel you Santar with 15 dex and a dirk just to see how fast you'd get me! :pleased: 

BM is definitely not terrible - for bashing sure (at low levels anyway)  at higher levels, definitely not. - PvP they're still very strong.
Sentinel doesn't need any str to get kills. Petrify is ludicrously easy to pull off, as is dismember. Str is only decent if you're going for skullbash kills, which isn't really feasible versus people who know what they're actually doing.

Aktillum

If you're on a fast ping (<0.1ms) it should theoretically be easier to lock people using server-side curing, since it "fakes" an average ping and sends cures at like 0.1m - 0.2ms, which means technically you're at an advantage. Serps pay for 0.1ms - 0.2ms faster dstabs with arte dirks.

Aerek

@Kagaatosaid:

So it's possible to be reasonably successful as a combatant @Aerek? She had said she was never able to lock anybody once against server-side

Others have already answered this, but just to drive it home, Serpent is still good against sever-side curing. SSC did take away Serpents' illusion-based offensive tactics, so maybe that's what she was referring to, but Serpent got some pretty strong buffs to compensate for it. (Darkshade being one, hypochondria being another, and FLAY becoming DEX-based and able to inflict a venom being a third.)

I would cite what others have said in that Serpent is a highly technical class that really requires you to understand Achaean combat mechanics and curing in order to play well. In the past, people didn't cure well, so Serpent could get by with minimal knowledge. SSC hasn't reduced Serpent's effectiveness, it has just forced Serpents to really do their homework and understand the class' potential. Not trying to say anything ill about your friend, just saying that Serpent is definitely "hard mode", and that you have to come into it with some determination and perseverance to learn what you need to learn (scripting included) to reach the level of proficiency Serpent requires to be effective.

Once you've done that, Serpent is a pretty scary class, artefacted or unartefacted.

Jovolo

Idk, I think Serpent combat has gotten easier if anything. It was very powerful back when illusions worked well up until like 2011/early 2012, then went through a bit of a slump when Svo was released for ~2 years before becoming what it is now what with all the buffs. It's definitely in the best spot it has been for several years in regards to ease-of-use and relative strength.

Playing unartied serpent is still pretty tough though, and one of the more difficult unartied classes as Santar said. The stab speed is like 2.3/2.4 with dexterity spec, and there's a veerryyy significant difference between that and the borderline 2 seconds speed you achieve with a buckawns when facing rebounding and good curing.  

Rip

You can do just fine as a serpent without artifacts.  You need to learn the cures and venom first. Without this knowledge artifacts won't you help you much.

Dochitha

@Kagaato You can do very well unartied. As @Aerek pointed out, serpents have one of the biggest boost when artied, which makes it feel like you need to be very artied to do well, and here's the GOOD news.

It's not quite a requirement to PAY your way to artefacts. You can BASH your way there, I did that for an Auroran Mace (L3 mace) when I was a Priest, at the same time I was bashing up for Dragonhood. So if you fancy the Thoth, work hard in real life to buy it, or bash hard IG, you WILL get it. Personally, bashing for arties gives me a lot more emotional fulfillment than just paying for it, though the process sucks big time.

@Santar Shaman has the Skull arty...do you find any other that boosts combat?

Rip

Holy fuck me..you are suggesting serpents "bash" their way...no no serpents steal...it's our profession...

Santar

Dochitha said:

@Kagaato You can do very well unartied. As @Aerek pointed out, serpents have one of the biggest boost when artied, which makes it feel like you need to be very artied to do well, and here's the GOOD news.

It's not quite a requirement to PAY your way to artefacts. You can BASH your way there, I did that for an Auroran Mace (L3 mace) when I was a Priest, at the same time I was bashing up for Dragonhood. So if you fancy the Thoth, work hard in real life to buy it, or bash hard IG, you WILL get it. Personally, bashing for arties gives me a lot more emotional fulfillment than just paying for it, though the process sucks big time.

@Santar Shaman has the Skull arty...do you find any other that boosts combat?

Fashion style shaman is pretty much full power whether you have skull artie or not.

Rip

My best friend @santar...is one of  the killers around that will feed to false information because he wants to pull you down.   Don't listen to him.  

Amranu

Skull artie is only relevant for people that stick around for pure curses really. Which at the higher tiers tends to be only the slower momentum classes... Alchemists, Occultists and I suppose Sylvans.

Everyone else just runs because Shaman has very little way to keep people around when cursing without expending fashions, at which point people play as defensive as possible against any curses to ensure you've wasted those fashions.

Santar

Aquil said:

I've always heard that in straight one verses one an unartied blademaster is terrible, same with Sentinel that isn't strength spec or at least has very high strength. (Not trying to compare apples to bananas here, just that they need a band or a spear to really have options)

Then again, it's not like I play either class it's just the general feed of other BM's and Sentinels that I hear. Was really hoping to duel you Santar with 15 dex and a dirk just to see how fast you'd get me! :pleased: 

@Aquil

sure whenever

Cooper

Serpent right now is stronger than ever, with or without arties.

Caladbolg

Cynlael said:

Aquil said:

I've always heard that in straight one verses one an unartied blademaster is terrible, same with Sentinel that isn't strength spec or at least has very high strength. (Not trying to compare apples to bananas here, just that they need a band or a spear to really have options)

Then again, it's not like I play either class it's just the general feed of other BM's and Sentinels that I hear. Was really hoping to duel you Santar with 15 dex and a dirk just to see how fast you'd get me! :pleased: 

BM is definitely not terrible - for bashing sure (at low levels anyway)  at higher levels, definitely not. - PvP they're still very strong.
Sentinel doesn't need any str to get kills. Petrify is ludicrously easy to pull off, as is dismember. Str is only decent if you're going for skullbash kills, which isn't really feasible versus people who know what they're actually doing.

A band doesn't actually effect much as for bm pvp if your going for brokenstar. People break faster but you could also just like use Arash and they break faster too.

You can still get the same number of bladetwists and stuff off with out a band as you could with a band.

Damage route and locking route is much harder of course.

But since you can time your strikes you can still impale off para for impaleslash pretty easy.

Santar

BM is pretty viable without arties, but you definitely -want- that band.

It's like saying I can lock people without an artie dirk. I can, but I still am a lot better with the dirk.


It's the difference between getting shot in the head with a sling shot, and being blown into the next dimension by Super Saiyan Vegeta's final flash.

Morkado

Also, I would like to add that attention to your opponent's curing and your creativity in crafting illusions can really negate any advantage/disadvantage accrued through artefacts or the lack thereof. Possessing an artefact does not make a person better at combat, though it makes certain aspects of it less troublesome. I have seen lower level serpents with few or no parties, ahem, utterly destroy level 100+ characters who clearly had been endowed with more dollars than sense. It might not be the norm but it is possible.