Copying Journals/Manuscripts

Jurixe

Problems I've repeatedly run into while copying all manner of documents (journals/manuscripts/scrolls):

A) You can't copy a journal that doesn't belong to you
You can't replicate the design of the journal/manuscript that you copied. There exists very limited options for journal customisation post-copy, and this doesn't exist at all for manuscripts
C) You can't copy scrolls, which also sometimes hold important works

The main problems that arise from A alone include the following:
i) As above, you cannot copy the design - pure aesthetics, but sometimes it would be nice to retain the original design
ii) People resort to copying the tomes by hand and generally don't credit the original author, which is unfair to their effort and gives false credit to the copier

ii) is the more important problem, and so I suggest the following fixes:

1) Allow journals/manuscripts/scrolls to be replicated exactly as they are, complete with author, title, and outward bindings.
2) If it's in a library, it should be able to be copied. This may be an unpopular opinion without caveat 3):
3) Have journal/manuscript/scroll owners be able to 'lock' their own volumes and/or set them as locked by default. That way, those that don't mind people copying their work can unlock their own volumes, and people that do don't have to change anything.
4) If option one is not implemented, please put more journal/manuscript customisations around Sapience.

I'm sure I've forgotten something but I'm falling asleep so hope it's understandable. Comment away.

Trey

Addendum - if bindings cannot be replicated due to any reason  (they may not want house item journals replicated, for instance), allow the person ordering the copy to provide a specific journal for the copy.

Tristyn

This, please this. It would make my life much easier!

Ahmet

Bump.

Seriously, this would be great. Library expansions incoming, so please please please.

Tael

I really wish all of the library copying stuff was just simplified and all that locking nonsense done away with.

The restrictions are fundamentally pointless. You can easily circumvent any of them by copy-pasting, so it doesn't actually prevent anything if people want to copy something that you don't want them to copy. I even know people who still have journal-copying scripts from back before copying was a thing - making it even easier than copy-pasting. All the restrictions do is make things more obnoxious, frequently when everyone would actually be fine with copying the text. And, again, when they're not fine with copying it, it doesn't matter - they can still copy it.

I understand the intent to let people lock books in libraries and all of that, but it's still completely pointless, regardless of the nobility of the intent. Can we please stop pretending these restrictions do anything and make things more convenient for everyone?

An ideal system would look like this:

1. REQUEST COPY OF <journal/manuscript/scroll>: produces an exact copy of a journal/manuscript/scroll in terms of description, contents, authorship etc. The only difference is that the resulting copy of the document is automatically sealed. You can copy from an unsealed document (you can make an in-progress copy of a journal for instance), but the product of copying it is always sealed (to prevent people using this as a way to create editable copies of rare journal types and to maintain the validity of the recorded authorship).
2. REQUEST SEAL OF <journal/manuscript/scroll>: does exactly what it does now. Is not required for copying - only to prevent further edits (especially to manuscripts and scrolls) and as a convenient way to trim blank pages.
3. No locking of any kind since it doesn't actually do anything.

Ahmet

And being able to do it -in- the library would be nice too, since SOME PEOPLE require that you check things in

EDIT: Before you leave the library, that is.

Melodie

Ahmet said:

And being able to do it -in- the library would be nice too, since SOME PEOPLE require that you check things in

EDIT: Before you leave the library, that is.

I think this is a reason precisely to not allow it. Else, I imagine most places will close their libraries to the outside world, save the libraries meant to be public.

Skye

I'm in the middle of copying some stuff with a ton of ASCII in it. Do you have any idea what a hassle it is to copy ASCII on mudlet? all the \s disappear unless you double them up!

Ahmet

Melodie said:

Ahmet said:

And being able to do it -in- the library would be nice too, since SOME PEOPLE require that you check things in

EDIT: Before you leave the library, that is.

I think this is a reason precisely to not allow it. Else, I imagine most places will close their libraries to the outside world, save the libraries meant to be public.

1: You can lock tomes
2: People can still copy-paste

Melodie

If you wanna take the time to copy/pasta a longass tome, deal with the editing, whatevs. If you have permissions to copy, then you'll be able to take it out of the library to copy. I just don't support the idea of making it easier for you to do so without permission, especially if the only reason books may not be locked is because they're not complete (such as books about events during certain year spans, or etc).

Shirszae

Personally, I think its worse if sub-optimal copies with awful editing are floating around. Specially if people attribute it to you and not to whoever made the copies.

Tael

Melodie said:

Ahmet said:

And being able to do it -in- the library would be nice too, since SOME PEOPLE require that you check things in

EDIT: Before you leave the library, that is.

I think this is a reason precisely to not allow it. Else, I imagine most places will close their libraries to the outside world, save the libraries meant to be public.

Except, again, they can still just copy all of them anyway.

I understand what people want locking and copy restrictions to do, but so long as copy-paste remains a thing, there just isn't any actual point to it.

If people were going to lock their libraries away from the world to prevent copying, they would be doing it already. And they will continue doing it whether or not locking remains or goes away and whether or not you can copy in a library or elsewhere.

Though, personally, I think copying should still require Mydoin. Having scribes that produce the copy and all that makes more sense to me, especially if the "binding" gets copied.

Jurixe

I'm quite on the fence about public copying and such. @Tael is right in that as long as copy/pasting (manually or otherwise) is possible, it just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. I do know a lot of people (myself included) who are deterred by the thought of copying/pasting pages manually, but of course if you really want a particular book in your shelf, tedium isn't a problem.

The motivation for me personally in making this topic is books being in public libraries (public temples, public areas like the Lucretian Athenaeum, anywhere you can get to that isn't affected by enemy status of any kind) that can't be copied. By making a book available in a public library, you acknowledge that your work is now free for all to peruse with your blessing as you have chosen to display it in a public setting, and the logic naturally translates to copying as well (since copying/pasting is a thing).

If manual copy/pasting cannot be avoided, why shouldn't copying in general just be embraced instead and made so that it can give credit to the original author?  That way at least you are still properly acknowledged for your work, and it's preserved in the form that you made it. If you want a way to distinguish between works that you donated yourself and 'copied' works, that's what the 'This item bears the mark of X' is for. Otherwise, perhaps make it so that those with CoAs can mark pages with their arms, mainly for manuscripts that might have multiple authors. The author should show up in the title when you probe the book, as scrolls do, and that shouldn't change - but if this isn't the case currently (can't check because at work) then maybe it should be made so.

Kyrra

When Selene died, the entire contents of the Order library went with her. Another Beloved had, for some reason, copied almost everything to a txt file long beforehand, so I was able to use that to transcribe about 12-13 books. I gave credit to all the original authors, but when you transcribe into journals (instead of manuscripts), you're still given default credit with being the author of said journal, and that irks me a little bit because I wished that they were just a little more authentic.

We ended up having to seal a few manuscripts that weren't finished in the library of Vastar's public temple, because Bonko was causing havoc in there and we didn't want to lose what others had written, which would have been irreplaceable. Most of them likely wouldn't have gotten finished, with the authors having moved on or gone dormant (eg. Cinya) but at least the option was there. Now we're just stuck with incomplete works, but at least all the information is available even if not all of it is relevant anymore.

Ahmet

Plus apparently you can't copy a journal if you're not the author (even if it's a library book) which irks me.

Vayne

It'd be nice if you could copy the journal of someone else, but it was marked as a second edition, etc. to show it was not the autograph. Likewise, it would be cool if the cost, or at least part of it was given as a royalty to the original writer. Of course, this does not prevent the fundamental issue of copy pasta. Perhaps if the author was only able to make a certain number of prints first edition. This could potentially combat copy/pasting by adding a level of rarity to certain texts that might intrigue certain collectors while librarians might shun bootleg copy/paste edition/

Achimrst

You're supposed to RP this stuff guys, instead of just copying it make sure to write in a page that this is a copy and maybe why you are copying it. Such things are done IRL when copying things to preserve the history behind why it is being copied. You should try and get a copy of Homer's The Illiad and the Odyssey!

Jurixe

We do as a last resort currently, but not everyone does and the idea here is to see if we can change some of the unnecessarily inhibiting mechanics to keep a fairer standard overall. We won't die without it, but it'd be nice to have.

Skye

Actually, while we're writing journals by hand, I've come across another thing that I would like added to this. 

I'd like for there to be a bookbinder or such who can add/re-arrange pages of your journal. I started copying something recently, and then realised that it was about time that this particular book might be updated with new information (a second edition if you will). I wanted to add a forward to reflect this except the only way I can do this is by recopying all the pages all over again to leave a blank one in front. T_T