Family names.

Caladbolg

So, Family names is pretty much a common thing in Achaea. and I didn't notice until now but when you leave a city you lose -all- your titles, including your last name. 

Basically my vote is to add a different title thing that allows you to set your own last name in the game instead of having to bug a divine/citymemeber/housemember/ext ext to title you for it instead.

Theris

I always thought that it was a bit weird that someone in your organization could decide whether everyone else would know your family name.

I was stuck with a leftover title when the Sylvanic Fellowship dissolved, and being a rogue, I just used ISSUE ME to request a title change. Meletus was happy to let me keep my family name at that point, but I'm not sure if the administration would consider this an ideal way to handle family names.

Antidas

While I don't disagree, this would require some method of deciding what is and is not a family name - while this is easy for an admin to do, that requires admin time, and its not as easy for a computer to decide. One potential argument for this would be to just set a list of "family names" that the game can recognize and allow, but even that would require some admin to decide what is and is not a proper family name, and what is required for something to become a proper family name. Just doesn't seem like a reasonable idea to me, unfortunately

Tibitha

Seeing as clans are to be used in place of some kind of family structure, what if, for a certain amount of gold/credits, a clan can be flagged as a family clan.

Once it's  flagged as thus it can have a unique family name associated with it which its members can choose to display or not.

It won't  help those with double-barrels but not sure how to handle that? Perhaps if you toggle on the family name of two family clans they automatically double barrel? 

Kyrra

My Sylvan is a rogue and when she got bloodlined, I tried to issue myself just to get a family title put on and was told that it's basically a perk of being part of an organisation.

Caladbolg

Antidas said:

While I don't disagree, this would require some method of deciding what is and is not a family name - while this is easy for an admin to do, that requires admin time, and its not as easy for a computer to decide. One potential argument for this would be to just set a list of "family names" that the game can recognize and allow, but even that would require some admin to decide what is and is not a proper family name, and what is required for something to become a proper family name. Just doesn't seem like a reasonable idea to me, unfortunately

We pretty much have no regulation on family names at all, and honestly alot of people can title me Wintermourne if I asked them to for that record, I don't really think that a list of family names is needed because the current title rules are pretty set in stone. (which assumingly they apply to this too)

And honestly OOC Last names like Van Helsing for instance.. While it might be a famous last name from fantasy I don't see why it can't be considered a ic last name too.


Now anyone who does something like Caladbolg, Von Poopyhead is obviously not going to make it. You could techinally have someone title you Caladbolg, Von Poopyhead and it would be the same -exact thing- Level restrictions or time played added onto it would be understandable I guess.

Kayeil

Yeah I was told by a Divine that titles of any sort, including a last name, are part of being in an organisation of some sort and that it's meant to be a way of encouraging people to get involved in things.

Avto

I think it's fine as is, most orgs have plenty of people who can title. If you are rogue, admins have always shown willingness to help if self issued (unless bob asks to be King Bob, Master of Sapience).

If someone is abusing their titling priviledges, report them and they will be revoked of such priviledge.

It's not me who should decide the value of admin time, however my opinion is it can be spent on some more useful stuff.

Kyrra

You will now be known as The Lady's Sweetest, Kyrra Drac'Kal, Sartan's Whore, by order of Lady Kierra, Siren of Sovereigns.

I've never seen reporting for title abuse do anything

Jacen

Could register a family name to a clan, and the clan leader could be allowed to prefix or suffix any member with that name.

Siduri

It can be done. It is called a High Clan.
(Not meant as snark, a High Clan's leader has the power to retitle clan members)

Bluef

Siduri said:

It can be done. It is called a High Clan.
(Not meant as snark, a High Clan's leader has the power to retitle clan members)

True. But there aren't any family high clans. I'm not sure it would be a good idea if there were. Family clans as a subcategory would be much preferred so as not to dilute the High Clan list as well IMO - and encourage some real family-based roleplay.

Caladbolg

Bluef said:

Siduri said:

It can be done. It is called a High Clan.
(Not meant as snark, a High Clan's leader has the power to retitle clan members)

True. But there aren't any family high clans. I'm not sure it would be a good idea if there were. Family clans as a subcategory would be much preferred so as not to dilute the High Clan list as well IMO - and encourage some real family-based roleplay.

Minimum requirements to become a High Clan

------------------------------------------

- The clan leader must post a clearly stated IC mission statement/clan charter,

  similar to the help scrolls for a House, in the clan's news post. This

  charter should contain, at minimum, the RP goals of the clan and the methods

  by which the clan intends to achieve those goals. The goals and methods may

  evolve during the clan's lifespan, but any significant changes may result in

  loss of the High Clan status pending a new application.

- The clan must operate under that charter for at least 5 Achaean years after

  the posting of said charter.

- The clan must, of course, be a strictly IC one, with no OOC communication

  permitted on its channel or newsboard.

- The clan must have at minimum ten members who are active within the clan.

- The clan head must have at least 500 hours played.

- No secret clans.

What will improve a clan's chances of being designated a High Clan?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

- A mutual affiliation with an existing RP organisation such as a city, House,

  Divine Order, et cetera.

- Clan leader and members with strong, consistent, established roleplaying

  history. If your rolepoints are often docked because you have a

  predilection for shouting RL pop song lyrics, your clan is probably not

  going to be approved.

- Existing history as a consistent and active RP clan prior to the availability

  of this designation.

Application process

-------------------

- The clan leader must submit an email to tecton@achaea.com with this

  information:

1. The name of your clan.

2. Your character's name.

3. The article # of the post in the clan news section with the clan's mission

   statement.

4. Any background information about the clan as relevant.

- Wait at least one RL month for the processing of the application and review

  of the clan.

- You will receive notice of approval or rejection. If rejected, you may not

  apply again for a period of at least 2 RL months.

- You may email tecton@achaea.com in advance if you have questions about the

  content of your mission statement.

serpentlords    Qwindor              the Cult of the Serpentlords

KotS            Ryanna               Keepers of the Song

KongolDrak      Faur                 Dwarves of Kongol Drak

pom             Taraus               Pirates of Meropis

marinersguild   Oceana               The Sefyric Mariners Guild

gom             Xith                 The Guardians of Moghedu

No family high clans.

 A mutual affiliation with an existing RP organisation such as a city, House,

  Divine Order, et cetera.
Is instantly going to disqualify most family clans from high clan status.

High clans are not really made for family.

Caladbolg

Ment to quote Siduri oops.

Jonathin

Why would you need a set list? Just make it like setting a target in game and append it to a character name. It'd have the same problems as titling, but it's less work than making awhole new system for handling surnames. However, with all the calls going for player names with titles, I doubt the effort-to-result ratio would be worth it.

Then again, I've never seen the code, so I could be wrong on the difficulty part.

Tael

A simple LASTNAME <name> would work fine, with the restriction that the surname not include spaces (if you want compound last names, hyphenate or get it via a title like you can right now). Make clear via a message that this is only for surnames and not to be used for titles, put a short timer on it, and make clear that they largely follow the same rules as first names.

So if I do LASTNAME ESCATH, I see something like:

"Last names follow the same rules as first names in HELP NAMES. You may not use a last name for anything except a surname - anything else requires a title (see HELP TITLES). Your full name will be Tael Escath. Do LASTNAME ESCATH CONFIRM if you wish to make this your last name. Note that you will be unable to change your surname for one Achaean year.").

It doesn't require admin oversight any more than regular names and titles already do and we already have methods of dealing with poor character names. I can't imagine many people would be abusing the system and it should be as easy to deal with them as it already is to deal with name violations.

Titles should absolutely be an incentive for joining organisations, but the ability to have or retain a last name is a silly and extraordinarily strange thing to hold over people's heads to try to entice them to get more involved.

If this is too complicated given the code governing names and titles, then that's a good reason not to do it. But barring that, it seems like an obvious solution to a longstanding problem that presently requires direct, individual admin intervention.

Cyla

Kyrra said:

You will now be known as The Lady's Sweetest, Kyrra Drac'Kal, Sartan's Whore, by order of Lady Kierra, Siren of Sovereigns.

I've never seen reporting for title abuse do anything

Admins DEFINITELY monitor it though. There has been 2 or 3 times I had my title removed for being too crazy. I think I'm on some sort of list now. In any case, I think you just get quite a bit of creative slack when it comes to titles. If they were much harder on them then it would probably stifle the immersiveness of Achaea.

Makaela

I feel that some kind of system for Surnames seperate from titles is needed. It could even make the rp of disowning a family member all that more relevant as the usage of the name can be relegated to a family head.

Nicaara

Can you not just ask a Divine for a title anymore? All I had to do was say what I wanted it to be, and make a donation to their order via bank. That was at least.. 9-8 years ago though.

Tael

Nicaara said:

Can you not just ask a Divine for a title anymore? All I had to do was say what I wanted it to be, and make a donation to their order via bank. That was at least.. 9-8 years ago though.

I think the point was:

1) This is a weird thing to require direct, individual admin intervention in every single case.
2) This is a weird thing for people not to just have direct control over. Not being able to set your own title makes sense, not being able to set your own last name is more than a little strange.

Kayeil

Nicaara said:

Can you not just ask a Divine for a title anymore? All I had to do was say what I wanted it to be, and make a donation to their order via bank. That was at least.. 9-8 years ago though.

Might vary by Divine, but I know Lady Pandora has already said anything titling related including last names is there to encourage others to join some kind of organization so She won't bother with random requests from people She doesn't even know. Honestly, I'd feel weird about contacting a Divine randomly about that.

Caladbolg

Kayeil said:

Nicaara said:

Can you not just ask a Divine for a title anymore? All I had to do was say what I wanted it to be, and make a donation to their order via bank. That was at least.. 9-8 years ago though.

Might vary by Divine, but I know Lady Pandora has already said anything titling related including last names is there to encourage others to join some kind of organization so She won't bother with random requests from people She doesn't even know. Honestly, I'd feel weird about contacting a Divine randomly about that.

 1) House Van Helsing (VanHelsing)

       as Council of the Black Mage

I'm in an organization. just a family organization (you know last names) that isn't going to likely ever fit the rules for highclan as I stated above. 

But personally I think we have enough reasons to join organizations in the game that the choice of being classless/cityless shouldn't completely remove you of the right of having a family name.

To be fair, i'll join a city eventually, likely a house eventually and might even get involved with a divine again.

But contacting an Administrator or a God to add ,Van Helsing to title just seems silly and a waste of everyones time.

Now also mind if I thought this would be extremely hard to code into the game then I wouldn't have suggested it.

Kuruvar

Imperian handles this pretty well. When someone is bloodlined, they BLOODLINE SELECT <mother|father> to determine their surname. Some clans are bloodline clans which can be spoken on with BT or FT, if you're in the appropriate bloodline, and there's even a command to CASTOUT troublesome members you don't want to have access to the channel anymore. Equally someone can choose to REJECT their bloodline to get rid of their surname.

A bit of industrial espionage and this code could be ours.

Kitiara

I would agree it would make it easier, but as mentioned above it would be hard to tell which is and isn't a family name and how do you deem it as one. Kit has no family or family name although I think she would like one eventually, so I do not know the woes of all this yet, but it does seem rather annoying if you left somewhere and it all gets wiped and there isn't a way to put it back.

Jukilian

IDEA'd it in game yet? I see no reason this would be denied.

Nim

Kuruvar said:

Imperian handles this pretty well. When someone is bloodlined, they BLOODLINE SELECT <mother|father> to determine their surname. Some clans are bloodline clans which can be spoken on with BT or FT, if you're in the appropriate bloodline, and there's even a command to CASTOUT troublesome members you don't want to have access to the channel anymore. Equally someone can choose to REJECT their bloodline to get rid of their surname.

A bit of industrial espionage and this code could be ours.

Only problem I see with this written as-is is that bloodlines normally represent blood relations, denying the ability for people to adopt or pass surnames in other ways (marriage, for example). I think it'd also be cool if someone could have access to multiple surnames, potentially picking up to two at a time to actually wear, with some restriction keeping people from going through them hourly.

For example, Nim took on her mentor's surname to respect the fact that, even though he didn't teach her the ins and outs of everything, she still follows the basic mindset he taught her to have when it comes to learning things, making him her constant teacher even if he's currently dormant.

She got his permission, of course, so it could be argued as falling under the adoption clause, though he's not her father - she already has one of those. (unless @Syth x @Kaden is now a thing?!)

Jukilian

I like the idea of "Houses" for surnames.

Like House Van Helsing, as an example. I'm not big on bloodlining because of a few reasons, but I'd be all for something like that to be implemented and recognized in Achaea.

Kayeil

I guess I wouldn't be against it as long as there was the option to still change it through the same way we set them now. Inamora is not my character's bloodlined last name, but one that belonged to Lady Selene and the Beloved only were allowed to use it.

Kyrra

Kayeil said:

I guess I wouldn't be against it as long as there was the option to still change it through the same way we set them now. Inamora is not my character's bloodlined last name, but one that belonged to Lady Selene and the Beloved only were allowed to use it.

I call BS on that since I've never once heard that before in game, in all the time I've been playing. Otherwise, you know, all the Order members would have known about it and been open to using it, not just the select few of the Vorondil family that adopted it.


On the side note, people change their family names for various reasons and they aren't always tied to actual families. A lot of high ranking people in Mhaldor have done so in the past, and I'm thinking of people like Carmain and Tvistor here, and it creates something more of a legacy that people want to belong to regardless of whether or not people are actually related. 

Kayeil

Kyrra said:

Kayeil said:

I guess I wouldn't be against it as long as there was the option to still change it through the same way we set them now. Inamora is not my character's bloodlined last name, but one that belonged to Lady Selene and the Beloved only were allowed to use it.

I call BS on that since I've never once heard that before in game, in all the time I've been playing. Otherwise, you know, all the Order members would have known about it and been open to using it, not just the select few of the Vorondil family that adopted it.


On the side note, people change their family names for various reasons and they aren't always tied to actual families. A lot of high ranking people in Mhaldor have done so in the past, and I'm thinking of people like Carmain and Tvistor here, and it creates something more of a legacy that people want to belong to regardless of whether or not people are actually related. 

Call bullshit if you like. Didn't realize I was related to Nat, Trilliana, Kopriana, and a few others... Interesting that I believe I'm the only Vorondil who currently uses it, and I've never seen Greys use it. It wasn't a secret, and something I had asked about. Better yet, I'm sure Naomh or I could find out for sure. Anyways, it wasn't a requirement to use the surname, just an option. Just as all Darkwalkers don't use the one unique to their Order.

Perhaps one of these would like to comment... @Greys @Trilliana @Nat

Edit: Besides, weren't you dormant for like an extremely long time? Just because you didn't hear it personally doesn't mean it's not true. You could've very easily missed it at some point.

Tael

1) "Houses" like this seem less likely to be implemented - that'd be a lot more complicated than just last names, though it'd be pretty neat.

2) If these "houses" were implemented, I imagine the best way would be to let cities/orgs designate a number of "official houses". I think Mhaldor already more or less does this too. Then those surnames are blacklisted from the normal LASTNAME <name> command that everyone else has access to. That way we don't end up with the same problem this was supposed to solve. These "houses" probably shouldn't be able to strip the surname from people either.