Game-wide Combat Tournament

Ernam

It's been a really long time since we've had a full-on combat tournament.  I'm going to run one, if there's enough interest.

Here's what I'm planning:

• Double elimination
• Two brackets, one for top-tier, one for everyone else.
• Top Tier buy-in, 10cr.  Main bracket: 5,000 gold.
• Fights can be done at any time, arranged by the two individuals.
• 3 RL day time limit to get fights done, or matchup forfeited.
• Split pot 67% to first place, 33% to second place (in each brack Tier).
• Final round: Winners of each tier fight for the title!
  

I'll run the brackets, & prizes.  Bookies can also organize bets for the individual fights or entire brackets. 

Will also announce in Public in-game if I decide to go forward with it.  Any interest?

Herenicus

I'd join the thanks-for-participating bracket. Sounds fun.

Ernam

I mean the buyins/prizes are totally optional.  Could just do it for free too, but I figured a bit of gold (20 cents worth) would spice it up a bit for the main bracket!

Amranu

May I suggest best of 3s for first rounds, best of 5s for semi-finals and best of 7 for finals?

Starcraft does it, it must be legit.

Ernam

I mean, I suppose each round could arrange this if they wanted to.  I'm not going to make it a requirement.

Mishgul

serious question: How would you decide who would be in the separate brackets, especially since the gap between top tier and mid tier and credit card tier has lessened and muddled severely recently.

Ernam

Mishgul said:

serious question: How would you decide who would be in the separate brackets, especially since the gap between top tier and mid tier and credit card tier has lessened and muddled severely recently.

Well I would strongly disagree when your belief that that gap has somehow shrunk (the opposite is certainly the case), however to answer your question, it's simply a matter of choice for players who want to join in.  I would also probably referee if I saw someone like Mizik joining the normal bracket (yes, based mainly on my subjective opinion of player skill + artefacts).

Jovolo

Only if you provide a tournament that renders artefacts null, or otherwise implements that condition into the one tournament you're suggesting. Or is the tournament an assessment of who has the most money irl?

Herenicus

Jovolo said:

Only if you provide a tournament that renders artefacts null, or otherwise implements that condition into the one tournament you're suggesting. Or is the tournament an assessment of who has the most money irl?

Wouldn't Apostates become relatively OP, since our class comes equipped with about all the offensive juice you can buy for it?

Mizik

Yeahhhh, bring on the low-artied noobs.

Ernam

Combat without artefacts would be silly.  Classes are balanced by design around ax level arties, and many classes are balanced around the existence of things like aldar diadem, torcs, RoF, and so on.  This is really a conversation for another day, but in short: No.  People worked for/purchased arties so they could use them.  They don't break combat, and they're available to everyone, so they're just fine.  The only exception here would be use of relics or staff of nicotine, since these are not available to all participants.

Ernam

This is why, however, I have two brackets.  If you can't roll with the big dogs... Well... You don't have to.

Jarrod

Something you might consider for a future tournament if this one works/you plan others, could be brackets based on number of artefacts allowed.

• Uncapped
• 5 Artefacts chosen prior to pairings
• No Artefacts

Would most likely work best run consecutively instead of concurrently depending on number of entrants for each 'tier', but it would help define each bracket better. Further stipulations like "No Torc" or things like that could be given in the middle tier, if desired. I think more people would be interested in solidly defined brackets as well. I certainly don't plan to hold any tournaments myself, but just something that might be worth considering if you continue doing stuff like this.

Kuy

Ernam said:

Classes are balanced by design around ax level arties, and many classes are balanced around the existence of things like aldar diadem, torcs, RoF, and so on.

What.

Bluef

I have to give kudos where kudos are due: This is a great idea, @Ernam and stepping up to organize it is really good of you. I hope it happens and there's some announces made on Public with the opportunity to witness some of these bouts!

Trey

I like this idea @Ernam. Also, Jarrod's tiers make a good amount of sense, I dig the idea of having a middle tier where strategic choice of artefacts based on your opponent matters. I could see someone like @Mizik or @Jhui doing something like that for the challenge.

Atalkez

I'm in 

Iocun

Needs a dormant people tier.

Iocun

Jarrod said:

Something you might consider for a future tournament if this one works/you plan others, could be brackets based on number of artefacts allowed.

• Uncapped
• 5 Artefacts chosen prior to pairings
• No Artefacts

Would most likely work best run consecutively instead of concurrently depending on number of entrants for each 'tier', but it would help define each bracket better. Further stipulations like "No Torc" or things like that could be given in the middle tier, if desired. I think more people would be interested in solidly defined brackets as well. I certainly don't plan to hold any tournaments myself, but just something that might be worth considering if you continue doing stuff like this.

Personally, I wouldn't be so fond of having a "some artefacts" tier, as in effect, that probably just translates to "volunteer to go without the artefacts that wouldn't be much use to you anyways".

Half-challenging yourself and going half-hardcore is a bit silly in my opinion and like this, we're only going to end up with all sorts of people asking for all sorts of "middle ground" restrictions (max levels, max number of trans skills, icon bonuses allowed/disallowed, whatever). Either you fight with everything at your disposal, or you go for an actual minimalistic challenge.

Ernam said:

They don't break combat, and they're available to everyone, so they're just fine.  The only exception here would be use of relics or staff of nicotine, since these are not available to all participants.

Everyone theoretically has the chance to get those things. Everyone theoretically could buy arties. In practice, all of the above are out of reach to many. Saying that arties are unproblematic since they're "available to everyone" is a bit cynical.

Ernam

Iocun said:

Ernam said:

They don't break combat, and they're available to everyone, so they're just fine.  The only exception here would be use of relics or staff of nicotine, since these are not available to all participants.

Everyone theoretically has the chance to get those things. Everyone theoretically could buy arties. In practice, all of the above are out of reach to many. Saying that arties are unproblematic since they're "available to everyone" is a bit cynical.

This is exactly why there are two brackets, and why I wouldn't admit artie-heavy players into the midbie bracket.

Ernam

Jarrod said:

Something you might consider for a future tournament if this one works/you plan others, could be brackets based on number of artefacts allowed.

• Uncapped
• 5 Artefacts chosen prior to pairings
• No Artefacts

Would most likely work best run consecutively instead of concurrently depending on number of entrants for each 'tier', but it would help define each bracket better. Further stipulations like "No Torc" or things like that could be given in the middle tier, if desired. I think more people would be interested in solidly defined brackets as well. I certainly don't plan to hold any tournaments myself, but just something that might be worth considering if you continue doing stuff like this.

This is a lot more complicated than you're accounting for.

Fighting without things like Torc, RoF, artie pet, etc - would require significant changes in the way you fight, strategically.  Not only is my system set up, but my "instincts" (as a player) and aliases etc are all set up to use Torc in certain cases, or RoF in others, etc.  I might easily find myself dying without my Torc when another option was possible, purely because I've never needed to use it before.  

Things like artefact weapons would be a major strategic change as well, it's more than just damage.  My offensive strategies often require the speed provided by weapons, and without them, some of my offensive strategies might be impossible, or might require significant alterations in order to work - which would require me to not just change various systems/aliases for this event, but would also require hours/weeks of training (as a player) just to handicap myself to the level of people who haven't put in the amount of time I have to develop my character (a large portion of which was done in-game).  Example:  People with level 3 weapons can break herb-balance and salve-balance thresholds, where people without them cannot.  This completely eliminates options (that are designed to be possible) from their combat strategy choices.  For players who know how important things like this are - and actively use them in combat - this would be a HUGE change .

So while I certainly understand where your concerns are coming from, it isn't as simple as simply banning artefacts, or even limiting them.  I might do something like this in the future, but it would be a totally different event, and would require a ton of work on every participant's part to prepare themselves and their systems for combat without dozens of abilities/strategies that are no longer available.

Tahquil

Think you guys are over thinking what I think is suppose to just be a spot of fun. I'd join... If the brackets were split up into ping speeds.

Wessux

I remember this thing called combat rankings. Maybe it's gone now, but it use to be an achaea wide combat tournament held over like 3-4 months. It wasnt two tiered, and there wasn't a big pot for winning, but you did get a honours line.

Cooper

Yeah, you can also just refuse to fight anyone who you think will beat you.

Ernam

Wessux said:

I remember this thing called combat rankings. Maybe it's gone now, but it use to be an achaea wide combat tournament held over like 3-4 months. It wasnt two tiered, and there wasn't a big pot for winning, but you did get a honours line.

"Combat Rankings are a joke."

We've been asking for some kind of legitimate combat ranking system for years, but as of now, it's totally worthless.  There are countless ways to game it, there's no oversight, no ranks/tiers, etc.  I'd put some effort into proposing a much better system, but frankly, that's already been done multiple times, and nothing has ever been implemented.

To be fair, there are so many variables that go into how "good" someone is at combat, and so many different opinions on how it should be measured, that it'd be a nightmare to have to do - but one thing is for certain, it could still be a lot better than it currently is - and should/could at least reflect people's actual ability to win fights (instead of measuring your ability to beat midbies and refuse to fight anyone decent).

Atalkez

I'd be interested to see people's rankings of active PKers right now.

Ellodin

dylan, dylan, dylan, dylan and dylan because i spit hot fire

Jovolo

Ernam said:

Combat without artefacts would be silly.  Classes are balanced by design around ax level arties, and many classes are balanced around the existence of things like aldar diadem, torcs, RoF, and so on.  This is really a conversation for another day, but in short: No.  People worked for/purchased arties so they could use them.  They don't break combat, and they're available to everyone, so they're just fine.  The only exception here would be use of relics or staff of nicotine, since these are not available to all participants.

So you do indeed agree with me. "People worked for/purchased arties so they could use them." If you want a competition based on your credit card, just ask for one. Don't do it under the guise of combat "skill". I think you'll find the staff of nicator is as equally available to all participants. Did Jhui work less hard for his staff of nicator than you did for your artefacts? Let's just say all arties off and brawl, if you want to see who is really the best fighter. I dare you.

Ernam

Skill is only one part of combat.  It's obviously the most important part, but preparation and character development are a part too.  The world will never have a shortage of people who haven't put in their 10,000 trying to convince everyone that they shouldn't have to.

The only reason staff of nicator and relics aren't permitted is because only one person may have them at a time, making it actually impossible for more than one player in the tournament to have them.  Staff of Nicator and Relics are also intentionally game-breaking, and both require extremely large, coordinated, group efforts to attain.  Nobody should get to bring something that the entire City of Ashtan (or any other city) earned for them into a 1v1 combat tournament, nor would it be reasonable to allow items that can't be attained alone, and are obviously game-breaking in 1v1 combat (eq gem, husks, etc).

Tell you what, I'll do this if you walk into a gym and ask to fight someone, but inform them that they're not allowed to use their muscles.

If it wasn't arties, it'd be dragon.  If it wasn't level, it'd be automation, if it wasn't automation, it'd be curing system.  If it wasn't curing systems, it'd be "gimmicks", or "abusing mechanics", and so on.

Good fighters determine what they need to be great, then spend the time, be it bashing, farming, coding, testing, experimenting, in order to achieve it.  All I see in people asking people to lay down the advantages they worked for (and dramatically alter the combat strategies they're used to in order to do so) is laziness.

Xinna

Just allow artefact lending. If you don't have arties, find a friend who does and borrow! Then, there is less of an unfair advantage but artefacted players don't have to recode things. Otherwise, could just do weapon arties only like is often done.

It would be cool if IRE held a 1v1 combat tournament every so often. Not sure everyone good would join one held by Ernam. Especially given the number of people who probably have ignored him or are ignored by him.

Would prefer a more neutral host.

Santar

I can't really imagine a more tedious and pointless wankoff than a 1v1 combat tournament hosted by Ernam.

It sounds like pretty much the most terrible thing ever.