Seafaring: Rigging Rank and Repairing

Greys

Hello Everyone,
Here are couple sailing items I was not able to bring up during classleads:

Having the rigging ability up so far in seafaring makes it really prohibitive. If it could be exchanged in skillrank with crossplank, I think it would be far more useful to newer mariners who have to focus on their class skills. They are still going to need to eventually transcend the skillset but this lets them sail without being completely helpless if their ship gets spidershot.

Second, would it be possible to get the shipmates able to follow verbal commands? One can almost completely sail via speaking except that the shipmates are deaf.

Jules

On the one hand, I like this because it might give people a better chance of outfitting a crew.  I also don't like it because it seems to make it even more tempting for people to sail alone or undercrewed.  

Also, I just tried to have a gander at seafaring classleads to make sure I have an idea of what's already out there, but I must be getting the syntax wrong, or, I just can't see them.  Can players view submitted classleads in Achaea or am I imaging that?

I actually wish it were mechanically impossible to leave harbour and sail without a healthy crew complement, and the ship would just stop working if people left willingly when the ship wasn't under attack (because if player crew was only needed to get out of harbour all of our lone captains would likely just help each other leave harbour and then go right back to sailing alone, or at the very least, woefully undercrewed).  

Yes, Team Pirate has this down, but Team Whitehat needs helpful nudges in the right direction, and the way things stand, even though people know better, there is an overwhelming tempation for captains to sail alone or undercrewed (and it does often seem to be flat out alone).  They pay the pirates, they tell themselves they can make this run.  It doesn't make them bad people, or even bad players, but our side of the player base is very much helped into a compromising situation (and also one that stifles sea conflict) by the way sailing works.  They sail alone because they have a boat and they CAN sail alone (as long as there is no threat).  If they are a dragon, they even have a decent chance of escape through wavecall (unless that is changing or changed).    

Part of the problem is that it's hard to put a crew together on the fly, especially as most lone captains, of which we have many, have a very particular SPP setup (basically high watch, high command).  I really, really wish it were very easy and fast to shuffle SPPs (as long as you couldn't do it mid fight).  I understand people are going to cry that it's already easy, but it's probably not easy enough.  I'd love it if it was as easy as "okay, we've got some people with seafaring, let's all shuffle our SPPs so we can make one that makes sense and go get on the boat".  

Sena

Jules said:

Also, I just tried to have a gander at seafaring classleads to make sure I have an idea of what's already out there, but I must be getting the syntax wrong, or, I just can't see them.  Can players view submitted classleads in Achaea or am I imaging that?

The last classlead season was just for the new changes (knights, alchemists, magi, shamans), not a general classlead round, so there weren't any seafaring submissions.

Jules

Ah, thanks.  Greys' OP was making me think there were some to view, and that he had some afterthoughts.  

Greys

@Jules Sorry, yeah I meant that Seafaring wasn't being reviewed so I would bring it up here.   The original point is that the high amount of lessons to get to rigging (what I consider an essential ability for sailing) makes it very prohibitive for Greys to allow lower level people to get involved in seafaring. 
Sailing being predominantly a solo activity has more to do with the fact there is not much anyone could contribute to a ship during any non-combat activity. If you required multiple people to be able to set sail on a ship, there would be a severe attenuation of what sailing is going on now.

It is interesting the unequal difficulty in respecializing. The weapons specialist is on Sapience while the deckhand one is quite a haul if you don't have the wings to get there. 

Jules

I really like the idea of getting more lower level people (in terms of SPPs at least) involved in sailing, yeah.  I do have a feeling that as things stand, it would also be even more of an encouragement for solo captains/undermanned sailing though (unless it really did create a meaningful influx of new "casual" sailors who were ready and willing to crew up).  

If you had to have multiple people it would absolutely mean fewer boats (aka incredibly easy marks that can only hope to run at best) on the water at any given time, but I really feel we need a hard push (nudge was probably too gentle a term) away from solo sailing, and even just sailing undercrewed.  If the requirements for healthy crew level are too taxing based on our population, maybe look at *that* (I remember Kinilan saying that Galleys in particular, are almost useless because of the crew requirements alone, for example).  

But I don't believe sailing was ever intended to have the high level of solo sailing it actually does, and that makes it an incredibly boring mechanic (i.e. people sitting around semi-auto fishing), punctuated by occasional moments of terror when actual danger arises.  

And yes, I really really hope that even if no one else does, admin might consider streamlining SPP shuffling.  The deckhand one (and don't forget helm) are especially ridiculous to change.  Command is a trip too, but most solo captains are 5 in it anyway.  

All of that is why, as an owner of two ships, I usually have a 0/3/4/5/1 setup (most solo captains have 4/5 in helm and command respectively), which basically means I can't even captain my own boats.  If nothing else, it helps with the temptation to sail alone!  And it means I would be able to *crew* my own boats, though, because I know I have almost zero chance of getting someone who is set up to crew.  I'm also not a great captain, but even if I were, I'd probably still keep that setup as things stand on Team Whitehat.

Kresslack

Greys said:

Second, would it be possible to get the shipmates able to follow verbal commands? One can almost completely sail via speaking except that the shipmates are deaf.

I'm personally fine with where Rigging is ranked currently. As for the verbal commands, those already work, no? You issue the command verbally, and your executive officer relays it appropriately.

Greys

@Jules I am not sure why having more ships on the water is particularly an issue as it is in theory more of an opportunity for interactions/conflict. 
Keeping the rigging clear is a way lower level people could then join in and get involved. (sorry, I am a bit confused if you are agreeing with my suggestion, disagreeing, or making a countersuggestion)
Also, Greys's admiral hat is black.

@Kresslack Fair enough. Also, I don't see repairs as a list on HELP SHIP COMMANDS and I have tried a wide variety. If you know a way to verbally command the shipmates to repair, I would love to hear how.

Kresslack

Greys said:

@Kresslack Fair enough. Also, I don't see repairs as a list on HELP SHIP COMMANDS and I have tried a wide variety. If you know a way to verbally command the shipmates to repair, I would love to hear how.

There are certain things, such as that, which there are no verbal commands for. I use aliases which send the SHIP command and add my own verbal aspect to it, but for actual verbal based commands for such things, I'd recommend IDEA'ing it. That being said, any seafaring related changes are probably going to be put on the back burner unless they're really easy to implement.

Jules

Greys said:

@Jules I am not sure why having more ships on the water is particularly an issue as it is in theory more of an opportunity for interactions/conflict. 
Keeping the rigging clear is a way lower level people could then join in and get involved. (sorry, I am a bit confused if you are agreeing with my suggestion, disagreeing, or making a countersuggestion)
Also, Greys's admiral hat is black.

Plot twist!  Wait, you're a black hatter as Targossian?  Or you have another char.  I'd actually forgot this was a general ability, rather than SPP related, so this is my misunderstanding/mistake.  It would be GREAT to move it down, so that we'd be more likely to come across people who we can bring along to clear spidershot (which is easily a full-time balance job when under attack), and crossplank is a perfect thing to trade.  Basic defense before offense.  I hope they do exactly what you're asking for (as well as some of the other things discussed).  

Kinilan

Rigging isn't that high into seafaring. Anyone with enough SPP to be useful as a crew member is going to have it. Anyone with their own ship, anyone with access to a ship owned by an org they are in is going to have it and lowering to the point where some random kid can serve as some sort of spidershot clearing bot isn't going to  fix the greater issue of team Blue's inability to build a crew on demand.

Jules

I'm pretty sure you're right (that it isn't going to fix our side's problems), but it's sure not going to hurt, and would probably make said spidershot clearing bot feel useful. We certainly need spider shot clearing more than we need the ability to cross decks (although it's true that occasionally has a friendly application, in ship arena for one when swapping crews).  

Kinilan

It would certainly be more useful but it doesn't address the root of the problem. Treat the disease not the symptoms.

Greys

@Jules Greys is Targossian but his coat and hat are black (should track him in game down as he would show ya).
@Kinilan At least for my city, I decide when people get access to org vessels. Even someone with the 1 SPP get get with the marque is useful as a loader. Rigging is one of my major criteria on top of a number of practicals for people to take command without a more senior member supervising. 
Again, overarching goal is a way to make seafaring more accessible on a basic level (ie less than 30 credits worth of lessons) as people cannot spend a lot of lessons at it to start. So, giving them something for dabbling. 

Kinilan

Seafaring is already accessible for a minimal lesson investment. You just said as much yourself. 1 SPP in weapons is huge. Lowering rigging doesn't make it easier for people to get into seafaring on the cheap. it just makes it even easier to defend when attacked. Defenders already have a massive advantage in terms of the mechanics of ship combat and where key skills are located within the specs.

Let's be honest here. You don't require that people have access to rigging as part of their ability to fight you require it so they can run away. I don't mean that as an insult it's just practical. If I had to bother with letting a large group of people having access to Ashtan's fleet I'd have pretty similar reqs. But this change won't promote conflict and it won't make it any easier for people to get into seafaring and find a place in a crew. It'll just skew the balance even more towards the defensive.

Greys

Oh no denying its a defensive ability. But say there was a defensive ability in a skillset that without which the person could reasonably fight at all. Either you lower the rank of it, or the person doesn't participate in fighting.

Kresslack

Greys said:

Oh no denying its a defensive ability. But say there was a defensive ability in a skillset that without which the person could reasonably fight at all. Either you lower the rank of it, or the person doesn't participate in fighting.

They can participate in fighting well enough with one point in Weapons. Can't really compare Seafaring to other skillsets, because it's in a category of it's own. It's not a class skill, a tradeskill, and it's not -technically- a miniskill. It's a hybrid, and in consideration of that, defensive/offensive have very different meanings.

As Kinilan mentioned, gaining access to the rigging in order to clear spidershot is a significant advantage to those on the receiving end. If you're gearing up to be serious about sea combat, obtaining Rigging at its current rank shouldn't be an issue. It's simply a matter of wishing to invest lessons.

Making it even more easily accessible to every startup sailor will effectively water down it's value and, as mentioned, further stack the odds in favour of defenders, which already have a significant advantage. Just my thoughts. In short, I agree with Kinilan.

Greys

@Kresslack @Jules  @Kinilan  Thank you each for your thoughts on this.

Nemutaur

We need more sea monsters or other engaging events on the sea to get others interested. Personally i hate captaining a ship, but enjoy being part of a crew. 

Aerek

Having recurring sea monsters as common, respawning entities seems like an absolute no-brainer that should have been put in years ago if it was possible. The only explanation that makes sense to me is that NPC AI is somehow incompatible or too difficult to make work in the wilderness setting. If that's not true, then I'm at a complete loss as to why monsters aren't everywhere. We've literally been asking for "whaling" since ships came out, day 1. Sea monster "bashing" would honestly be a huge step toward solving Sailing's major issues for every section of the playerbase:

• Hunters: People like PvE, and we want group PvE. Sea monsters are everything people want group PvE to be. It takes teamwork and strategy to overcome a big, bad, boss monster. Everyone has a different role, it's like a WoW instance but with Captain/Helmsman/Weapons instead of Tank/Healer/DPS. It's challenging and difficult, but even low-level characters can safely accompany the group and be of great help without being instant-killed. It might even give war galleys a reason to exist, lords know they're useless for fighting other players. All of the reworks the Admin are doing to make actual bashing more interesting is appreciated, but you guys already have a fantastic system set up in sailing, you just have to actually give us monsters to hunt.
• Traders: Ship trades are boring/not worth the time, but if there were more monsters, then ship trades would either A. get buffed because now you're dodging monsters the whole way, thus justifying much higher payouts, or B. just become what you do while you hunt for monsters for food, experience, and profit. (Sea monsters do drop gold/rewards, right? Easy fix if not) Take your hunting crew, sail the route looking for monsters, and either you get rich off monster kills, or worst-case scenario, you get your consolation prize by completing the trade.
• Pirates: Piracy struggles to be interesting because A. there aren't enough people on the seas, and B. because almost no one on the seas learns how to fight. A. is because if you're not a pirate, there's nothing exciting for you to do on the seas, just boring/repetitive fishing/diving/trading. B. is because there's no reason to learn to fight, because you can just run from pirates. Sailing is the one aspect of the game where PvE and PvP aren't -that- different, so if there were more monsters, and people took crews out and learned to fight those monsters, then there would be a marked increase in the people who knew how to participate in ship combat, and probably more people willing to engage with pirates.
• Pirate hunters: There's a subsect of us who would love to take on the "pirate hunter" role, but because there's only like 4 players that routinely pirate, pirate hunting is an often-futile ordeal that has you hunting a needle in a haystack, if you don't find your target, you've just wasted 3-5 hours and have nothing to show for it. If there were monsters, then even if we don't catch a pirate, we can still kill a monster, have some fun, and feel like we accomplished something.

Seriously. Respawning sea monsters. Why isn't that a thing?

Edit: TIL, B ) creates smilies.

Kinilan

Fighting a sea monster and sinking a ship are not the same thing. You won't learn how to do one if you practice the other. I'm all for sea monster shenanigans but I don't think it'll help as much as you think. Aside from a single attempt by Targossas and Artanis' group nobody outside of Mhaldor/Ashtan/PoM even tried to get involved. The Mariners Guild stance, the good guy counter to PoM, defenders of the sea and all that crap, was to do nothing and wait for poM to save them. kind of disappointing.

Honestly if all of a sudden there were roaving sea monsters all over the place people wouldn't fight them, they'd just double down on the running away and/or give up moving their ship all together.

Kyrra

@Aerek, that largely reminds me of Puzzles Pirates

Aerek

Kinilan said:

Fighting a sea monster and sinking a ship are not the same thing. You won't learn how to do one if you practice the other. I'm all for sea monster shenanigans but I don't think it'll help as much as you think. Aside from a single attempt by Targossas and Artanis' group nobody outside of Mhaldor/Ashtan/PoM even tried to get involved. The Mariners Guild stance, the good guy counter to PoM, defenders of the sea and all that crap, was to do nothing and wait for poM to save them. kind of disappointing.

Honestly if all of a sudden there were roaving sea monsters all over the place people wouldn't fight them, they'd just double down on the running away and/or give up moving their ship all together.

I'll take your word over mine, experience gap and all, but I'd still see it as a jumping-on point. Most Seafarers don't even install weapons on their ship, because there's just not enough justification to own them. Pirates are (relatively) rare and sea monsters are nearly non-existent, and in both cases it's easier to run than fight. Make sea monsters a constant threat, something that kinda has to be dealt with, (I'm picturing a range of monster strengths, I understand that currently they all kinda require multiple ships with trained crews) and weapons will proliferate, and so will knowledge of how to use them, and just like folks' casual interest in arena combat can grow into serious interest, Seafaring could stand to gain form that casual interest.

If nothing else, -I- would get out onto ships more. I love Seafaring as a concept, but I just don't have hours of time to spend sailing around doing nothing. If I could go out, kill a monster, come home, that would absolutely get me out sailing more often, just like Nemutaur said. He and I can't be the only ones to feel that way.

Jules

I'd love a "constant threat" like this, with the understanding that most of them need to be something a single ship can try to run from or engage (but it should be *very* hard to try to run if that ship is undercrewed).  

Kresslack

@Aerek, as I understand it, the system for seafaring is something in a category of its own and somewhat isolated (and neglected) from everything else. It's something @Sarapis has said he created intially but never really had time to follow up to change it or maintain it in any large ways. The request for regular, automated npc creatures at sea has been made many times, but as of yet most things relating Seafaring and the sailing system are likely on the back burner.