Leviticus' Future

Leviticus

Good Afternoon.
Background:
I am level 96 and looking to make it towards dragon. Currently Monk. I have not played since they nerfed (twerked) limb damage. I try to keep up with all the changes but I probably missed a lot. I am not a theorycraftor (er) nor understand the deep down and unders of PVP (nor probably the basics, lets be honest). Probably never will. Nor am I a coder. I use SVO along with some other scripted stuff to make life easier. I am looking at the newest changes and I really like them. I am trying to decide what class I want to go. I cruise through the forums and look at what other people think. 
Un-biased as much as I can:

Monk: I understand how to do the standard break torso, doublebreak legs, bbt as many times as I can before they heal/tumble. This has given me some kills of midbies and lowbies. Never really on a top-tier pvper. I try to throw in Telepathy, but really never use it. Just in raids or if I get bored. Don't understand the potential that is there because I don't understand affliction combat really. In my experience of fighting top-tier people is one I don't last that long to someone who understand my class. On that off chance I do get in three BBT's in a row it never seems enough to kill them, probably because there is a lot of time between prep, doublebreak and BBT that I didn't build up enough damage. I did not take the time to figure it out. I just usually whined and moved on.

Mage: Seems a little complex for someone like me to understand. I probably would take the time to learn but I don't understand the whole concept right now.

Knight: Sounds amazing. I like prep-classes. Will take some time to understand the basic of Knights and get around parry and the lot. Then there is the decision of which knight to go. runie or Infernal

Current Arties: a Circlet of the Will, a Collar of Agatheis,  a blood pendant, an earring of Sinope, a Logosian ring , a pair of eagle's wings,  a pair of Ogre's Gauntlets , spiked knuckles, a pair of Logosian Bracelets, a Girdle of Aegis, an earring of Sinope, a golden band of Draconic vigour, a buckawn's amulet , an Aldar Diadem, a wyrmskin pack , a debonair white top hat, a Hood of the Sphinx, Gem of Transmutation, Gem of cloaking, Elephant (mount)

My gut says wait until Multiclass, monk isnt that bad, except my bashing. But I would love to hear from the community their ideas and thoughts. Even the trolls. I have enough to buy two level 3 artefacts for the knight class. Thanks for the support and help!

Xinna

Coming from monk, you might -really- like dual blunt. It's a very simplistic but powerful prep-based class, with easy parry bypass much like monk has.

Arador

The Knight specs are being adjusted, still. Will have to wait and see where they end up when people learn how to fight them. That being said, Infernal Dual Cutting is solid. Go strength spec with some level 1+ scimitars. The break chains are simple, prep is straightforward, and you can either vivisect, or if they dodge that, exploit it to get the DSB. Dualblunt is closer to Monk, also goes excellently with infernal but I'd wait and see how it all turns out first.

Addama

You'd probably be best served learning some of the PVP fundamentals before changing class.  You might really enjoy Monk after you figure out the subtler points of the class.  Changing your class isn't automatically going to teach you these things.

Krux

Honestly, monk is pretty much the simplest class there is.
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Knights - Runies/Infernals Infernals right now are not really meshing well with the current Knight Specs. Not saying that infernal is any less OP than it was before, just traditional prep/break and beat restore balance isn't really an option with the current specs. Unless you want to go S&B and stack afflictions like crazy, or Dual Cutting and try to Shatter-Vivisect people (which can be interrupted by like everything and anything.) I wouldn't really go infernal atm. Cause this is gonna take a lot of experimentation/rage quitting infernals until they tweak something.
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Runies - Are Solid. They recently got a Tumble Counter, Plus Sexy Rune Adjustments. Great for hunting (probably the best hunting class in the game)
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With knight (with the exception of Dual Blunt) You're gonna have to learn venoms and afflictions and from what you posted that sounds like something you're not really into. And to be perfectly honest the only Knight Specs that are worth anything at the moment are Dual Cutting and S&B. Mhaldor could always use more runies but really both S&B and Dual Cutting are both affliction classes. You're gonna have to know your venoms and when to use them.
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Dual blunt, although looks really nice on paper... The second someone starts hindering you the lack of hinder and a raze slash make it like monk except that now you hit rebounding and you need momentum to go for your break chain and if someone is rebounding, paralysis spam, shielding, etc you're probably not going to get it. And with the adjustment to assault that was recently implemented they can basically just cure to avoid vivi and be perfectly fine against you.
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Two-hander... yeah just don't bother with this one unless you're only interested in bashing.
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As far as I know, Monk Bashing Damage wasn't nerfed, only their limb damage was, and honestly monks still viable just takes you like 10 hits per limb now. With an Endurance Ring you can prolly bash to dragon just fine as monk.

Wessux

Monk da bes.

Mizik

Wow Krux. No, dude.

Jovolo

No offence but at least 60% of the info in that post was wrong

1. Monk hunting damage was significantly nerfed as well as their limb damage. 

2. Infernal is still a very strong class that meshes fairly well with the knight specs, and still performs well with dual cutting. Remember vivisect was viable before frenzy, it just required a bit more creativity than break leg, break arm, vivisect.

3. Runewarden's don't have a tumble counter. It was when it was first implemented, but that was quickly removed and now Isaz & Engage only prevents regular movement again. 

4. Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally. 

Krux

Jovolo said:

No offence but at least 60% of the info in that post was wrong

1. Monk hunting damage was significantly nerfed as well as their limb damage. 

2. Infernal is still a very strong class that meshes fairly well with the knight specs, and still performs well with dual cutting. Remember vivisect was viable before frenzy, it just required a bit more creativity than break leg, break arm, vivisect.

3. Runewarden's don't have a tumble counter. It was when it was first implemented, but that was quickly removed and now Isaz & Engage only prevents regular movement again. 

4. Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally. 

Well my apologies for any misinformation.

1.) Didn't know this thought it was simply the limb damage. My bad on that one.

2.) I didn't say Infernal was any less OP than before, I simply said it would take a lot of experimenting and Venom Knowledge which... if he was having trouble with monk affliction combat... I don't really see how Infernal would be any simpler. And how the hell is it WORKS WITH ONE SPEC saying it meshes well with the new knight specs? Spec not specs. I told him how he'd have to kill with dual cutting and how he'd have to kill with S&B I didn't say... OH NO INFERNALS IS A DEAD CLASS! I said Infernals are basically affliction based.

3.) Ah, okay to this. Runies are still solid even if they remove the tumble counter. They can go any spec. They have solid survivability with tumble into pre-runed rooms to either avoid finishes (bbt) or heal out of afflictions. They are still possibly the best Bashing class and with increased DSB Damage they are the best for Disembowel. One again I simply just said Mhaldor could always use more runewardens.

4.) Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally.
How exactly when Dual Blunt is Basically only one part of being any Knight. He would still have to learn when and how to use his runes, or vigour, blackwind, etc. Not to mention Chivalry abilities like Arc/Battlecry/Etc.

As Dual Blunt he has to keep track of momentum, while prepping, being prepped, hindered and hitting rebounding.

As a monk he has to keep mind lock and then prep and he's done (at least mid-bie combat). And not hitting rebounding can't be overstated. Being able to either flee if your being overwhelmed and come back in and break your opponent or wait until they attack to cancel most prone hinders also can't be overstated. I can't see how Dual Blunt would be easier than Sweep/Arm/Leg Full Combo Torso/Arm/leg simply can't do that as Dual Blunt and keep up your momentum. The only real plus I'd give dual blunt vs monk is that it breaks a hella lot faster.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong I like learning new shit so its cool.


Edit: Infernal Meshing with Dual Blunt & Two-hander
From my experience as an Infernal Two-Hander has possibilities but really, it will take you far less time to simply get legs to 6 Fractures/Torso 2 and Devastate/DSB than going for vivisect. Gravehands vs Leg Fractures the only real bonus gravehands is going to give you as two-hander is they cant fly which can simply be compensated by fighting indoors or being able to fly yourself.

Dual Blunt as Infernal is basically trying to get vivi and hoping they cure wrong. If they cure head over legs, sure vivisect them all day but with the adjustment to assault, you're going to have to do two doublewhirls after expend to get back your momentum so there's no more if you cure for one you get hit by the other. Not saying this isn't viable I just find momentum to be tedious at best and a pain in the ass against hindering classes at worst. And with No Raze slash and no hinder (outside of limb breaks) its a rough job to keep up momentum.

But as has been previously stated there are more changes/tweaks incoming I'm sure and this could all change.

Wessux

Krux said:

Jovolo said:

No offence but at least 60% of the info in that post was wrong

1. Monk hunting damage was significantly nerfed as well as their limb damage. 

2. Infernal is still a very strong class that meshes fairly well with the knight specs, and still performs well with dual cutting. Remember vivisect was viable before frenzy, it just required a bit more creativity than break leg, break arm, vivisect.

3. Runewarden's don't have a tumble counter. It was when it was first implemented, but that was quickly removed and now Isaz & Engage only prevents regular movement again. 

4. Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally. 

Well my apologies for any misinformation.

1.) Didn't know this thought it was simply the limb damage. My bad on that one.

2.) I didn't say Infernal was any less OP than before, I simply said it would take a lot of experimenting and Venom Knowledge which... if he was having trouble with monk affliction combat... I don't really see how Infernal would be any simpler. And how the hell is it WORKS WITH ONE SPEC saying it meshes well with the new knight specs? Spec not specs. I told him how he'd have to kill with dual cutting and how he'd have to kill with S&B I didn't say... OH NO INFERNALS IS A DEAD CLASS! I said Infernals are basically affliction based.

3.) Ah, okay to this. Runies are still solid even if they remove the tumble counter. They can go any spec. They have solid survivability with tumble into pre-runed rooms to either avoid finishes (bbt) or heal out of afflictions. They are still possibly the best Bashing class and with increased DSB Damage they are the best for Disembowel. One again I simply just said Mhaldor could always use more runewardens.

4.) Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally.
How exactly when Dual Blunt is Basically only one part of being any Knight. He would still have to learn when and how to use his runes, or vigour, blackwind, etc. Not to mention Chivalry abilities like Arc/Battlecry/Etc.

As Dual Blunt he has to keep track of momentum, while prepping, being prepped, hindered and hitting rebounding.

As a monk he has to keep mind lock and then prep and he's done (at least mid-bie combat). And not hitting rebounding can't be overstated. Being able to either flee if your being overwhelmed and come back in and break your opponent or wait until they attack to cancel most prone hinders also can't be overstated. I can't see how Dual Blunt would be easier than Sweep/Arm/Leg Full Combo Torso/Arm/leg simply can't do that as Dual Blunt and keep up your momentum. The only real plus I'd give dual blunt vs monk is that it breaks a hella lot faster.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong I like learning new shit so its cool.


Edit: Infernal Meshing with Dual Blunt & Two-hander
From my experience as an Infernal Two-Hander has possibilities but really, it will take you far less time to simply get legs to 6 Fractures/Torso 2 and Devastate/DSB than going for vivisect. Gravehands vs Leg Fractures the only real bonus gravehands is going to give you as two-hander is they cant fly which can simply be compensated by fighting indoors or being able to fly yourself.

Dual Blunt as Infernal is basically trying to get vivi and hoping they cure wrong. If they cure head over legs, sure vivisect them all day but with the adjustment to assault, you're going to have to do two doublewhirls after expend to get back your momentum so there's no more if you cure for one you get hit by the other. Not saying this isn't viable I just find momentum to be tedious at best and a pain in the ass against hindering classes at worst. And with No Raze slash and no hinder (outside of limb breaks) its a rough job to keep up momentum.

But as has been previously stated there are more changes/tweaks incoming I'm sure and this could all change.

The intricacies of how telepathy and kaido mess with tekura are extremely complex. Monk is as good as the amount of work you put in it. The set ups possible with the correct artefacts and stats are outstanding. It just takes a lot of work to plan them out. They also can prep you in record time leaving several contingency plans in depending on how people react. Infernal works well if all the specs. S&B for great affliction rates, possible locks, with infestation. Dual cutting for excellent synergy with DSB and Vivisect. Dual blunt for interesting set ups that tie into each other. Two hander for good raid combos. Monk rocks, infernal rocks.

Xinna

Krux said:

Jovolo said:

No offence but at least 60% of the info in that post was wrong

1. Monk hunting damage was significantly nerfed as well as their limb damage. 

2. Infernal is still a very strong class that meshes fairly well with the knight specs, and still performs well with dual cutting. Remember vivisect was viable before frenzy, it just required a bit more creativity than break leg, break arm, vivisect.

3. Runewarden's don't have a tumble counter. It was when it was first implemented, but that was quickly removed and now Isaz & Engage only prevents regular movement again. 

4. Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally. 

Well my apologies for any misinformation.

1.) Didn't know this thought it was simply the limb damage. My bad on that one.

2.) I didn't say Infernal was any less OP than before, I simply said it would take a lot of experimenting and Venom Knowledge which... if he was having trouble with monk affliction combat... I don't really see how Infernal would be any simpler. And how the hell is it WORKS WITH ONE SPEC saying it meshes well with the new knight specs? Spec not specs. I told him how he'd have to kill with dual cutting and how he'd have to kill with S&B I didn't say... OH NO INFERNALS IS A DEAD CLASS! I said Infernals are basically affliction based.

3.) Ah, okay to this. Runies are still solid even if they remove the tumble counter. They can go any spec. They have solid survivability with tumble into pre-runed rooms to either avoid finishes (bbt) or heal out of afflictions. They are still possibly the best Bashing class and with increased DSB Damage they are the best for Disembowel. One again I simply just said Mhaldor could always use more runewardens.

4.) Dual Blunt is far simpler than Monk is as a class, generally.
How exactly when Dual Blunt is Basically only one part of being any Knight. He would still have to learn when and how to use his runes, or vigour, blackwind, etc. Not to mention Chivalry abilities like Arc/Battlecry/Etc.

As Dual Blunt he has to keep track of momentum, while prepping, being prepped, hindered and hitting rebounding.

As a monk he has to keep mind lock and then prep and he's done (at least mid-bie combat). And not hitting rebounding can't be overstated. Being able to either flee if your being overwhelmed and come back in and break your opponent or wait until they attack to cancel most prone hinders also can't be overstated. I can't see how Dual Blunt would be easier than Sweep/Arm/Leg Full Combo Torso/Arm/leg simply can't do that as Dual Blunt and keep up your momentum. The only real plus I'd give dual blunt vs monk is that it breaks a hella lot faster.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong I like learning new shit so its cool.


Edit: Infernal Meshing with Dual Blunt & Two-hander
From my experience as an Infernal Two-Hander has possibilities but really, it will take you far less time to simply get legs to 6 Fractures/Torso 2 and Devastate/DSB than going for vivisect. Gravehands vs Leg Fractures the only real bonus gravehands is going to give you as two-hander is they cant fly which can simply be compensated by fighting indoors or being able to fly yourself.

Dual Blunt as Infernal is basically trying to get vivi and hoping they cure wrong. If they cure head over legs, sure vivisect them all day but with the adjustment to assault, you're going to have to do two doublewhirls after expend to get back your momentum so there's no more if you cure for one you get hit by the other. Not saying this isn't viable I just find momentum to be tedious at best and a pain in the ass against hindering classes at worst. And with No Raze slash and no hinder (outside of limb breaks) its a rough job to keep up momentum.

But as has been previously stated there are more changes/tweaks incoming I'm sure and this could all change.

I tried to tell you this before, but infernal doesn't have to vivisect.

S&B + infestation is amazing affliction potential, higher than runie. Dual blunt + infernal is just amazing lose/lose vivisect/pulp pressure. Can also still go for damage, like any knight! Dual cutting is vivisect class, like before. Can also dsb like any knight. Twohander, unsure. Vivisect still offers more options than other knights have, against people who parry head for example, but leave arms open. Arms become dangerous. Infestation stacks nicely with the fracture passive afflictions for hinder and sensitivity sticking. And infernal can still damage and dsb.

Infernal doesn't work with only one spec.

Also, infernal can tumble out of gravehands in the exact same way runie can tumble into nairat.

But for the OP, still think dual blunt is much, much simpler than monk and may appeal to you, @Leviticus. Similar style, but no need to telepathy. You may want to be runie (does hugalaz work on dual blunt weapons?) cause it's more damage-oriented than afflictions. But not 100% sure how runie works with dual blunt.

Addama

Xinna said:
does hugalaz work on dual blunt weapons?

Yes, it's also probably the only useful rune for DB.  No venoms throws Eihwaz and Pithakhan out, and you'd have to be super-lucky to proc Nairat at a time when it would matter (e.g. on a break).

Leviticus

Why runie instead of Infernal? Infernal seems to have more killing potential

Xinna

Like I said, both should be viable. It's a matter of style. Runie is damage. Infernal is vivisect.

Leviticus

so if I go dual blunt infernal, which artefact weapons should I get? I read flails do dmg, but are slower (obvs) and morningstars are for you to get quick setups

Addama

Never not go Morningstars.

Your DPS is roughly the same, the difference is your kill sequence is much faster.

Arador

Keep a flail for assault, though. Infernals can stack afflictions very well, though saying they can lock with SnB is not really realistic. Impatience is a random tick on infestation. I've seen it happen twice in a row and I've seen it fire only once in 5 minutes. It really is not something that can be relied on. That being said, if you want to do try doing it, dual cutting is a lot better since you can give slickness and anorexia at once.

Wessux

Arador said:

Keep a flail for assault, though. Infernals can stack afflictions very well, though saying they can lock with SnB is not really realistic. Impatience is a random tick on infestation. I've seen it happen twice in a row and I've seen it fire only once in 5 minutes. It really is not something that can be relied on. That being said, if you want to do try doing it, dual cutting is a lot better since you can give slickness and anorexia at once.

S&B can focus lock you done easily, it's literally its thing. Add on top the extra affliction pressure and the random impatience ticks it's overly dangerous. I agree that impatience locks is not really a realistic thing, but it gives the third person message so you can take advantage of it when it happens. Also S&B can give slickness and anorexia at the same time. S&B lacks in salve balance stacking compared to Dual Cutting, but makes up for it in better focus stacking and arguably better herb stacking.

Arador

Softlock, sure. Don't see how you can get slickness and anorexia in the same blow unless you got lucky with smash high RNG. Not really what I would call realistic. Agreed on the rest.

Wessux

Ah, I was confused on one of the shield strikes. My bad.

Xinna

Nothing about smash high is RNG.

S&B infernal is amazing for locking. Obviously primarily focuslocks, sometimes turned truelocks. That's not really relevant though. A lock is a lock, if the class does it as damn well as S&B does.

Dual cutting is ok, but you really can't beat passive afflicting/stun + temporary impatience. S&B is the better lock class by far.

Arador

So smash high always gives afflictions in the same order? That could be interesting. That being said, I never claimed dual cutting to be better than SnB at soft or focus locking. I said it would be in a better position to jump on that random impatience tick if it comes up. SnB van obviously do it as well but dual cutting has more affliction freedom per combo for things like slickness/anorexia and recklessness/weariness I was specifically talking about true lock with infestation.

Xinna

Fair enough. I think being able to focuslock better guaranteed, and then turn it into truelock if impatience happens to tick, would still be a better avenue for locking, overall, though. I guess I was just confused about what you were responding to in the first place - no one mentioned truelocking in the manner you described, afaik. Infestation is a great boost to any kind of locking, though. You're underestimating its strength if you think it only helps when impatience ticks.

Smash high always gives the same afflictions in the same order, yes.

Borran

Xinna said:

Like I said, both should be viable. It's a matter of style. Runie is damage. Infernal is vivisect.

Runies are bullies. Infernals are artists. I hope you choose to make Sapience your canvas, @Leviticus.