Is blademaster bashing still terribad?

Nexes

How is this looking now? Is using weaponry still faster? And what is the survivability like?

Sena

Weaponry was* better because weaponry was overpowered, not because of any problem with blademaster.

*And still is, but I expect that will be changed pretty soon.

Blademaster is okay for bashing. It has about the same DPS as every other class except the weapon-using classes (knights/bard/serpent, artied priest/jester), which are still better than everyone else. They have pretty poor defence, but they also have a lot of flexibility from stances; sacrifice offence for defence (Mir), sacrifice defence for offence (Arash), sacrifice a bit of DPS for a bit extra speed (Thyr), or go with a balance of everything (Sanya).

Mizik

Since anyone can use Weaponry, it is excellent if you just slash with a weapon since Mir only slows down/weakens Two Arts.

Otherwise, in the intended manners, Blademaster is god awful hunting. Too squishy, too little damage.

Just Mir + Slash until it's fixed.

Nexes

That's disappointing. So going from bard I would lose the SoA, they'd have lower survivability even without that, and dps would be lower. Not really related to bashing, but also would lose the ability to mostly fight mounted (I think).

If you use weaponry with mir, would a soulpiercer work?

Sena

Going from bard, you'll probably find any class except artied jester and artied dex-spec serpent (possibly runewarden as well, knight bashing is still being tweaked) to be a huge downgrade.

Soulpiercer should be fine (maybe not the best, but there's a good chance it's better than any forged weapons), until weaponry is balanced.

Atalkez

SP is bard only after testing period

Nexes

Atalkez said:

SP is bard only after testing period

Oh, was hoping it was just knight skills that couldn't use it. Good to know.

Nexes

Very squish. Wow. Much pain. Regret. Edit: this is what comes of trying to divest myself of voicecraft's unsynchronized balance while in a pre-renaissance house. FML

Razzlo

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Zulah

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Razzlo

Zulah said:

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Exactly, it is a very annoying wait.

Edit: Plus even the lowbies could do it because sternum is so low in striking and it is the class skill you get first for some weird reason?

Eld

Razzlo said:

Zulah said:

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Exactly, it is a very annoying wait.

Edit: Plus even the lowbies could do it because sternum is so low in striking and it is the class skill you get first for some weird reason?

Not sure exactly what you mean by "the class skill you get first", but Two Arts is the primary class skill, and the first one anyone should be putting lessons into...

Naverre

Eld said:

Razzlo said:

Zulah said:

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Exactly, it is a very annoying wait.

Edit: Plus even the lowbies could do it because sternum is so low in striking and it is the class skill you get first for some weird reason?

Not sure exactly what you mean by "the class skill you get first", but Two Arts is the primary class skill, and the first one anyone should be putting lessons into...

I think he meant one of the first striking abilities you get. It takes 6 lessons to get it, I think.

And, I like this idea. Have it scale with Striking level and I'd be a happy camper.

Razzlo

Eld said:

Razzlo said:

Zulah said:

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Exactly, it is a very annoying wait.

Edit: Plus even the lowbies could do it because sternum is so low in striking and it is the class skill you get first for some weird reason?

Not sure exactly what you mean by "the class skill you get first", but Two Arts is the primary class skill, and the first one anyone should be putting lessons into...

When you start out as a Blademaster, you start with Twoarts and Striking. I always found this strange considering weathering and toughness are in Shindo. When I started, I learned striking up to alleviate. I did this for the free cures. So anyone doing that would pick up Strike Sternum on the way, since it is so low in the skillset. I did Trans Twoarts first though for sure. I actually transed Striking until after I transed Survival...it is mostly for combat...which I do not do yet really. 

EDIT: Sorry should have clarified earlier, I still remember waiting until I could embrace to get Shindo and that bummed me out. I guess people who had class embraced for a while forget that Shindo is the skill you get upon embracing. 

Eld

Razzlo said:

Eld said:

Razzlo said:

Zulah said:

Razzlo said:

Add strike sternum as an attack that hits mobs. Then I can make a drawslash/strike sternum bashing combo for crits plz? Maybe? No? Ok...

Then you could raze and sternum strike a mob rather than using the impossible long eq from burst or just waiting for shield each time

Exactly, it is a very annoying wait.

Edit: Plus even the lowbies could do it because sternum is so low in striking and it is the class skill you get first for some weird reason?

Not sure exactly what you mean by "the class skill you get first", but Two Arts is the primary class skill, and the first one anyone should be putting lessons into...

When you start out as a Blademaster, you start with Twoarts and Striking. I always found this strange considering weathering and toughness are in Shindo. When I started, I learned striking up to alleviate. I did this for the free cures. So anyone doing that would pick up Strike Sternum on the way, since it is so low in the skillset. I did Trans Twoarts first though for sure. I actually transed Striking until after I transed Survival...it is mostly for combat...which I do not do yet really. 

EDIT: Sorry should have clarified earlier, I still remember waiting until I could embrace to get Shindo and that bummed me out. I guess people who had class embraced for a while forget that Shindo is the skill you get upon embracing. 

Weathering and toughness are great for bashing, yeah, but Striking is much more fundamental to blademaster combat (basically everything being built around slash/strike combos). You can conceivably kill people with just Two Arts and Striking; with just Two Arts and Shindo, you'd be pretty boned.

Edit: I get that if you're not trying to get into combat (and most people won't before they embrace, really), it's not really a concern, but since classes are mainly designed around pvp, it doesn't make sense to start with the skill that provides a couple small perks for pve and a bunch of nice but non-essential pvp/utility abilities at the expense of one that's absolutely required for combat.

Razzlo

Makes sense then I suppose. I never thought of it that way.

In any case, if strike sternum could target mobs then I doubt many people would complain even then about the wait.

Zulah

Tested some weapons (yes I have proficiencies) against a player Dragon to give an idea (I didn't have a dreadblade so I asked someone with matching strength to test and let me know. So if its too far off I'd like to see your numbers)

Mir Stance
Level 3 Blademaster Band
14 Strength
Nimble
Battleaxe = Damage: 159  To-hit: 157  Speed: 148
Scimitar = Damage: 52  To-hit: 164  Speed: 231
Bastardsword = Damage: 197  To-hit: 164  Speed: 131
Dreadblade = Damage: 222 To-hit: 180 Speed: 149

Time for each attack
2.1 second Scimitar Slash = 310
2.5 second Drawslash with a level 3 band = 429
3.5 second Dreadblade Slash = 1500
3.6 second Battleaxe Slash= 630
3.8 second Bastardsword = 1000

15 second mark
Scimitar = 2170
Battleaxe = 2520
Drawslash    = 2574
Bastard Sword = 4000
Dreadblade = 6000

So rather than buy a level 3 band I could have spent the same amount of credits on a dreadblade and got nearly 3x more bashing damage. Around 5600-6000 damage per 15 seconds. Keeping in mind this was all tested against a player dragon and would undoubtedly do more to NPCs

I'm bashing with Bastard sword now but actually considering a dreadblade if I don't class change. I can only imagine how bad it is for players who DON'T have a level 3 blademaster band...

Edit: pointing out the top tier class weapon for BM is worse for hunting than spending less than 1 credit worth of gold on a forged weapon

Sena

Damage against players and damage against denizens are pretty much unrelated. So those damage numbers don't mean anything at all for bashing.

Zulah

Sena said:

Damage against players and damage against denizens are pretty much unrelated. So those damage numbers don't mean anything at all for bashing.

Ah, well I kill creatures noticeably quicker with the bastard sword. I'll stick to that

Zulah

Both were at full health when I hit them. Level 3 band pwned by a sword worth less than 1 credit.

You slash into a mhun labourer with a Mhaldorian bastard sword.
5273h, 4215m, 28116e, 17235w ecdb 75%-

With expert precision, you draw Unrelenting Kraken from its scabbard and unleash a vicious slash
towards a mhun labourer.
5533h, 4225m, 28130e, 17233w ecdb 88%-

Sena

Zulah said:

Both were at full health when I hit them. Level 3 band pwned by a sword worth less than 1 credit.

You slash into a mhun labourer with a Mhaldorian bastard sword.
5273h, 4215m, 28116e, 17235w ecdb 75%-

With expert precision, you draw Unrelenting Kraken from its scabbard and unleash a vicious slash
towards a mhun labourer.
5533h, 4225m, 28130e, 17233w ecdb 88%-

If that's Mir, then it looks like bastard sword DPS is roughly the same as L3 banded Sanya (the best stance for DPS besides Arash). If so, you can actually kill a lot faster with drawslash, but a bastard sword lets you be a lot tankier without losing much offence.

Zulah

Sena said:

Zulah said:

Both were at full health when I hit them. Level 3 band pwned by a sword worth less than 1 credit.

You slash into a mhun labourer with a Mhaldorian bastard sword.
5273h, 4215m, 28116e, 17235w ecdb 75%-

With expert precision, you draw Unrelenting Kraken from its scabbard and unleash a vicious slash
towards a mhun labourer.
5533h, 4225m, 28130e, 17233w ecdb 88%-

If that's Mir, then it looks like bastard sword DPS is roughly the same as L3 banded Sanya (the best stance for DPS besides Arash). If so, you can actually kill a lot faster with drawslash, but a bastard sword lets you be a lot tankier without losing much offence.

Arash Stance Drawslash lvl3band:
--------
6143h, 4036m, 28151e, 17132w excdb-
 | Drawslash elite mhun keeper |
6143h, 4026m, 28126e, 17142w ecdb93%-
--
4821h, 3861m, 28123e, 17107w excdb37%-
 | Drawslash elite mhun keeper |
You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
4821h, 3801m, 28098e, 17095w ecdb25%-



Mir Stance Bastard sword slash
---------
6143h, 4225m, 28153e, 17235w excdb-
You swing a Mhaldorian bastard sword at an elite mhun keeper with all your might.
6143h, 4215m, 28114e, 17233w ecdb88%-
--
5461h, 3814m, 28147e, 17173w excdb29%-
Lightning-quick, you jab an elite mhun keeper with a Mhaldorian bastard sword.
You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
5461h, 3814m, 28108e, 17173w ecdb5%-
--



Still beats even Arash stance for damage while keeping the tank of mir

Eld

I don't have exact numbers for 14 strength, but assuming the scaling  changed, you  get about 204 dps in mir and 271, in sanya. Looks like around 260 with a bastard sword, so, as @Sena says, you'll do best with drawslash in sanya, switching to weaponry in mir if you need the defense. @Tecton  co are definitely aware of the inordinately good bashing with weaponry, as compared to class abilities, so it seems likely it'll be adjusted in the relatively near future; probably not worth buying artefact weapons for bashing unless you foresee having other uses for them.

Sena

Zulah said:

Still beats even Arash stance for damage while keeping the tank of mir

Bastard has about twice the damage of drawslash, but more than twice the balance cost, so bastard DPS is lower. And being faster is an advantage separately from the DPS.

Bastard+Mir is still better overall, but drawslash isn't weaker.

Eld

Also, is your Mir drawslash really 2.5 seconds? From my testing a while back, it should be more like 2.3 for mir  nimble and a level 3 band.

Zulah

6143h, 4225m, 28131e, 17233w cexdb-
 | Drawslash mhun guard |
6143h, 4235m, 28106e, 17235w cedb-
A mhun guard batters you with an overhead blow.
5615h, 4225m, 28146e, 17233w cedb-
5563h, 4225m, 28146e, 17233w cedb-
 +++ BALANCE ++++ (2.454s)
5563h, 4225m, 28146e, 17233w cexdb-
 | Drawslash mhun guard |
You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!
5563h, 4225m, 28121e, 17235w cedb-
A mhun guard skewers you with a well-placed jab.
5303h, 4235m, 28155e, 17235w cedb-
 +++ BALANCE ++++ (2.621s)
5303h, 4235m, 28155e, 17235w cexdb-
 | Drawslash mhun guard |
5303h, 4235m, 28130e, 17235w cedb-
5257h, 4235m, 28130e, 17235w cedb-
 +++ BALANCE ++++ (2.442s)
5379h, 4235m, 28155e, 17232w cexdb-
Fire erupts in your side as a mhun guard carves you up.
4594h, 4235m, 28155e, 17232w cexdb-
5806h, 4235m, 28155e, 17232w cexdb-
 | Drawslash mhun guard |
5806h, 4235m, 28130e, 17232w cedb-
 +++ BALANCE ++++ (2.478s)
5806h, 4235m, 28155e, 17235w cexdb-

Mir Drawslashing