Whips, Hunting, and the Recent Changes

Bronislav

Whips:
   Whip of Thorns:             77     187      165     300 credits
   Razor Whip:                 81     196      173     700 credits
   Serpentis Whip:             84     204      180    1400 credits

Lashes: Thinner more agile whips
   Viper's Coil:               55     164      187     300 credits
   Wyvern's Lash:              59     174      209     700 credits
   Elentari's Scourge:         65     181      225    1400 credits

Before the tradeskill/weapons/armor changes, Bron had a pretty sweet whip: 78/blah/192. My garrote speed was at roughly 2.25~ seconds thanks to Dexterity having an impact on it along with whip speed, and I was really happy with hunting as a Serpent.

Now, all non-artefact whips are at 73/175/159. My garrote speed is at 2.8~, and there's a noticeable drop in the damage I now deal. You wouldn't think that roughly half of a second would have -so much- of an impact on hunting for me, but it really does.

Now I need to consider getting an artefact whip/lash, but the question is, which one's really worth getting? I -really- miss the lightning-fast garrotes, but I worry that having a Damage score that's even -less- than what I have now is going to be even more irritating, especially if there's a cap to how much Speed affects garrote balance. The lower to-hit scores are a lesser concern, but I can still imagine the heartache involved with trying - and failing - to garrote bigger enemies for piddling amounts of damage at 2 seconds per.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Does anyone have experience with artefact whips and/or artefact lashes in regard to hunting post-Dexterity changes? I'm interested in stories and perspectives on this to kind of ease my mind in either direction. Thanks in advance.  

Nexes

I'd make sure those stats are accurate if you got them from HELP ARTEFACTS. For example, that the soulpiercer values are no longer correct.

Edit: Guess they're mostly the same.

Bronislav

Issued. I guess we'll find out shortly?  

Nexes

Bronislav said:

Issued. I guess we'll find out shortly?  

I just checked the Delos shop. The stats are mostly the same, to hit is a little different on a few I guess.

Aepas

Yaknow, I never really thought about it, but I guess I can see some of the serpent bashing getting a huge nerf because of this. I believe it's something worth looking into

Sena

Aepas said:

Yaknow, I never really thought about it, but I guess I can see some of the serpent bashing getting a huge nerf because of this. I believe it's something worth looking into

They were desperately in need of it, just like the other weapon-using classes.

The only way to tell what the best choice is now is for someone to find how the damage and speed formulae were changed, if they were changed (that seems to be the case). A 73/175/159 whip now is probably very different from a 73/175/159 whip yesterday.

I plan on testing things like that, but it probably won't be until this evening at the earliest.

Riashain

Ya... now I have like no health, I'm slower than before, and I'm doing slightly more damage (we're talking 1% on a dun orc type thing). The extra dmg is just because my old whip was fast, but low dmg if memory serves. Anyway... we'll see what happens. Interested in testing a lash if anyone has one

Suladan

Hard to say which is better now, lash or whip as there is so much unknown.

Based on past experience though, Level 1 lash used to be worse than decent forged which, now it's probably a little worse or about the same. Level 2 lash was about the same as s top end forged which and level 3 lash is a dream.

As compared to whips, if you're backstabbing/garotting then you'll probably want a whip instead. If you do more hunting you'll probably want a lash instead - especially if higher level where the crits come more frequently.

I have level 3 lash and went hunting today and didn't notice any difference to pre-change. Wasn't scrutinizing the timing or how many hits exactly, but wasn't enough of a change to be easily noticeable.

Bronislav

@Suladan Out of curiosity, what was the garrote balance recovery for your Level 3 lash? I'm a higher level, and I get a lot of hunting in, but I've slowly been hammering things out for the fighting scene. Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone - I'm genuinely curious as far as the specifics as far as damage and speed go, but I think it's something that a lot of those who've rolled with forged whips might be wondering right now.

Suladan

@Bronislav‌ Average of 25 garrotes is 1.67s per. I have 16 dex as well as the Level 3 Lash. In the Anarchaea thread I did testing up to 19 dex and Sena gave all the garrote speed figures, they don't seem to have changed. Probably damage is same formula as well, just weapon stats are the difference.

Riashain

can you link that particular post? hard to search properly on this tablet I find.

Suladan

@Riashain‌ @Bronislav‌
I started looking for the earlier specific Sena (tm) posts to give the formulas, but they actually ended up being all over the place in bits and pieces, so here's the summary:

 Garrote Damage:
 320+4*DamageStat

 Garrote Speed:
 7-SpeedStat/50 minus dex bonus

 Dex Bonus:
 First Sena comment:
 "It actually seems to be 6% balance reduction per point of dexterity if garrote is above a certain balance time (not sure exactly where that point is), 7% per point of dexterity for garrotes slower than whatever the cutoff point is. If there's a cap, it's at least 17 dex, but there could be diminishing returns before that."

 After more testing:
 "So if there's a cap, it's at least 19, and there are apparently no diminishing returns. That means garrote can get down to 1.3 seconds (with 19 dex and a L3 lash), and probably down to 0.9 seconds with truefavour, +dex icon, and +dex elixir.
 
 "If it can go down to 0.9, then a serpent with 22 dex and a L3 lash has about the same DPS as a 23 str bard/knight with a 122 damage 259 speed rapier."

 Later Sena comment:
 "This is 6% of the base speed, so 16 dex is about 7.3% faster than 15 dex. Or with slower garrotes (which is likely if you have less than trans subterfuge), it will be 7% instead of 6%, making 16 dex about 8.9% faster than 15."

Riashain

Thanks

Kaihuti

With that formula, lashes are slightly worse than whips for straight garrote damage, but significantly better for anything else, so I guess bye bye whips.

Bronislav

@Suladan Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you? Thank you.

@Sena Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

@Kaihuti Something else that @Vicious mentioned that whips have over lashes (Thanks, @Vicious): to-hit. It's less significant until one starts hunting bigger game, or if one starts hunting Adventurers with it (After a backstab would be recommended), but it is something to bear in mind.

Overall, this mostly kicked my decision moreso toward lashes. That garrote speed. The only questions that remain are how often I'll be missing my attacks with bigger denizens/adventurers, and how much (if at all) that Speed affects flay. Even if these questions remain unanswered, the information provided has been incredibly helpful to anyone who's now faced with this decision. This includes me. I really shouldn't care that much, but after slugging through either 2.8s garrote speeds with 'Meh' Damage or 2.4 garrote speeds with 'Ick' Damage (They make non-artied whips LASHES (wtf), now. Be afraid! ), it's good to know my options. Thanks!

Kaihuti

hit isn't useful against denizens, at trans sub any that dodge pretty much dodge the same amount no matter the stat, so you are better off biting with camus in that case, against players, sure, keep a whip around for a garrote when ganking, but using lash will be in your best interest 90% of the time.

Suladan

@Bronislav‌ You're welcome. Also, flay speed is solely dependant on dex (and nimble obviously), though I don't have specific numbers. Speed stat on weapon didn't affect it (unless that changed with this weapon rework).

As far as to-hit goes, it was more of a problem before the fairly recent (several months ago? maybe longer, but you remember it) buff to serpent bashing.

Currently I'll miss death knights and such once in a while as well as dex-spec'd dodging/etc. adventurers. Can switch to camus on denizens if I'm getting annoyed and vs those types of adventurers, going to miss now and again no matter what is just the reality of it.