Toxicology: Envenomed Sheaths

Xith

When milking is split off, add an ability to coat the inside of a sheath in layers of venom so that every time the blade is drawn, it has the desired venom order.

Trey

AFAIK Serpents are still going to be able to envenom their own stuff.

Xith

Yeah that wasn't part of the topic. Colours only applies to doing quivers. And since they aren't the only bow class, it might as well be split off if not added to the knights also.

The idea is for something marketable to people who cannot yet envenom their stuff. Unless Envenom is going to be added to all relevant classes like it was for Apostasy, in which case disregard.

Kresslack

On a scale of 1-10 seconds, how much thought did you put into this idea before posting it? The marketable part IS Toxicology. That's literally the entire reason Milking is being taken away from Serpents and a whole trade skill revolving around making and selling toxins is being created.

Xith

For future reference, reading the actual context of a sentence helps to prevent confusion, but I'll copy and paste it:

"The idea is for something marketable to people who cannot yet envenom their stuff."

Selling venoms to a novice who cannot envenom is like selling arrows to someone who can't shoot or snipe. So I actually put about 15 seconds into the idea, which is like 10 more than you spent reading my post. :P 

Kresslack

Xith said:

For future reference, reading the actual context of a sentence helps to prevent confusion, but I'll copy and paste it:

"The idea is for something marketable to people who cannot yet envenom their stuff."

Selling venoms to a novice who cannot envenom is like selling arrows to someone who can't shoot or snipe. So I actually put about 15 seconds into the idea, which is like 10 more than you spent reading my post. :P 

I don't know of anyone who sells venoms to a novice. I know people that sell venoms, and novices (or anyone for that matter) who can't make use of envenom don't tend to buy them. Hence the confusion, because toxins are proposed to be marketable; they're just taking the place of venoms for everyone except Serpents.

For future reference though, it might help to wait for changes to actually go through, and see how they turn out, before proposing changes to them based on minimal details.

Xith

Actually no. Player input shapes the development, and in some cases putting a feature in as you go is easier than going back to change it for every skill afterward. Therefore always share your ideas, no matter how minimal.

Kresslack

I don't see how input on Toxicology when literally nothing has been released about it save that it will replace Milking in Venoms shapes the development, but ok, have at it.

Xith

Would have to ask the Garden for an estimate of how much of Achaea's function was actually player-inspired. We also don't know at what stage it is. My fear is actually that it will only contain the venoms and milking them, would be dull. 

Kyrra

It reminds me of the Lusternia version of making poisons where you have to go and milk toxic creatures or something. However, if it's like Oblivion where you get to gather ingredients and sit in a dingy little shack mixing noxious concoctions, it'll be so great.

Xith

In what way is dumping venoms into a sheathe the same as milking animals? O_O?

Kresslack

• The milking ability will be removed from Serpents to become:
  Toxicology: Concocting venoms from an assortment of ingredients.

Kyrra

Xith said:

In what way is dumping venoms into a sheathe the same as milking animals? O_O?

The venoms mixing together into an undefinable puddle? I don't like the idea in the OP but Toxicology itself sounds like it will be awesome.

Cynder

...Wait, what?

What would be the point in this? Wouldn't you still need envenom? Even then, can't serpents just envenom their dirks much faster with much less hassle?
Do you realize how spammy it would be to:

envenom sheathxxxx with prefarar;envenom sheathexxxx with curare;sheathe;attack player;wait balance;sheathe;attack player

Like I don't really see the logic in it. Like you have no real reason to sheathe unless you're using your bow, and even then you may forget you envenomed your sheathe after awhile and go to dstab for kai/finish a lock/whatever and mess yourself up. Honestly, I don't agree personally.

Sorry.

Addama

You can also have somebody envenom your weapons for you and give them back to you if you know the order that you'll want the venoms (like, have one all curare, one all aconite).

Short of this, learning Envenom is probably the best idea.

Kyrra

@Daeir, how's it any different to pre-envenoming your weapon with an alias which is basically what the idea sums up? Except you're taking a second step to envenom sheathes to envenom the weapons, which requires you to sheathe and draw the weapon?

I just don't see the efficiency especially when it would require you to have envenom in order for you to envenom the sheath. Everyone has access to envenom through weaponry, so it's not that huge of a deal compared to getting arrows envenomed from a serpent/knight. 

Xith

K I'm seriously tired but let me try to explain better.

VENOMIZE sheathe123456 WITH curare slike kalmia curare aconite delphinium delphinium epseth slike kalmia [venom9] [...]

wp dagger
An obsidian dagger has no venoms or magi....

SHEATHE DAGGER
DRAW DAGGER
wp dagger
...has the following venoms: curare, slike, etc.

stab,stab,stab,stab,... --"oh no, momentum broke and I have to start over, but I lack envenom and can't ask someone for venoms in the middle of a fight"

SHEATHE DAGGER
DRAW DAGGER
wp dagger
...has the following venoms: curare, slike, etc.

You could do this 20-50 times before your sheathe runs out of venom.

Context:
Any serpent alt who ever had to ask someone to pre-envenom a dagger for them so they could go try to lock a newbie and so on, that's who this would serve, or anyone with a similar need. Maybe you just want two longswords full of curare/prefarar or something.
Also completes the full ~12 envenoms in retardation with only 2 actions, so there's that I think.
Not sure if Daeggers can be sheathed but, ditto.

Cynder

Sorry but I don't want to take the risk that plague cripples my arms after I sheathed, I'm getting royally fucked over, etc etc. 
A magi will have their weapon pre-envenomed anyways, and most of the time I see hourglass/torc anyways. 
Aegoth, Austere, Hasar, Kaden, (From what I've seen) Valur all never really utilized envenoming within ret. It was all done as they did prep work and such.
On top of that I just see it a lot easier to do: envenom rapier prefarar;slash person
compared to that of: pre-evenom;sheathe;draw;slash person.
ON TOP OF THAT - Serpents can just do: dsb person venom venom
ON TOP OF THAT!!11!!!1! - - Does that mean knights would have to envenom both scabbards and then sheathe both then draw both?

YOU SHOULD BE TUMBLING OUT OF RETARDATION IF THEY HAVE VIBE STACK.
I mean if you want to really use venoms just get that 150 lessons in Weaponry, grab some random ass weapon and there you go.
Cyn uses a battle-axe as an Alchemist to slash voyria and delphinium when people are locked. All I need. I don't need to add some damn sheathe;draw;slash string line to my already absurdly long combo. Which would look like this
p scabbard (check to see what venom(s)(??HOW WOULD THIS WORK)
wipe scabbard
envenom scabbard
sheathe
draw
assess x impatience/weariness (check for lock)
evaluate humours x (make sure phlegmatic is gone all the way)
homunculus attack x (I have this in every line regardless)
slash x (finally got there)
Because my biggest problem is that slashing takes away so much of my balance and it's crucial I know they aren't just soft locked I'm not going to waste valuable (mili)seconds to sheathe/draw and in ret this just sounds like a bad idea compared to a simple ENVENOM <weapon>
Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is just what I'm getting from you Daeir.

TL;DR I still think ENVENOM <Weapon> is a lot easier.

Edit: Xith posted,

 but I still think the general concept isn't fleshed out. A magi as much as it is useful to have a dagger full of venoms, just seems like a bad idea. Even worse if they're still new to rebounding and hitting it. This is just my general ideas and how it wouldn't be so effective.
I mean it'd be great for novices but as for retardation and stuff, or for high tier combat I don't see it all that effective. Just seems more like somewhere along the lines it's going to get messy somewhere, or someone is going to mess up and you're going to flop or lose a combo. I personally had hotkeys set up for my envenoming, and I was always aware of what I was afflicting. Especially if they swap to kelp > bloodroot, my whole venom strategy changed. Or if I suddenly have them kelp stacked and wasn't sure if I could stick it, and I right now need to stack ginseng.

Xith

Cynder said:

Sorry but I don't want to take the risk that plague cripples my arms after I sheathed, I'm getting royally fucked over, etc etc. 
A magi will have their weapon pre-envenomed anyways, and most of the time I see hourglass/torc anyways. 
Aegoth, Austere, Hasar, Kaden, (From what I've seen) Valur all never really utilized envenoming within ret. It was all done as they did prep work and such.
On top of that I just see it a lot easier to do: envenom rapier prefarar;slash person
compared to that of: pre-evenom;sheathe;draw;slash person.
ON TOP OF THAT - Serpents can just do: dsb person venom venom
ON TOP OF THAT!!11!!!1! - - Does that mean knights would have to envenom both scabbards and then sheathe both then draw both?

YOU SHOULD BE TUMBLING OUT OF RETARDATION IF THEY HAVE VIBE STACK.
I mean if you want to really use venoms just get that 150 lessons in Weaponry, grab some random ass weapon and there you go.
Cyn uses a battle-axe as an Alchemist to slash voyria and delphinium when people are locked. All I need. I don't need to add some damn sheathe;draw;slash string line to my already absurdly long combo. Which would look like this
p scabbard (check to see what venom(s)(??HOW WOULD THIS WORK)
wipe scabbard
envenom scabbard
sheathe
draw
assess x impatience/weariness (check for lock)
evaluate humours x (make sure phlegmatic is gone all the way)
homunculus attack x (I have this in every line regardless)
slash x (finally got there)
Because my biggest problem is that slashing takes away so much of my balance and it's crucial I know they aren't just soft locked I'm not going to waste valuable (mili)seconds to sheathe/draw and in ret this just sounds like a bad idea compared to a simple ENVENOM <weapon>
Please correct me if I'm wrong but this is just what I'm getting from you Daeir.

TL;DR I still think ENVENOM <Weapon> is a lot easier.

Edit: Xith posted,

 but I still think the general concept isn't fleshed out. A magi as much as it is useful to have a dagger full of venoms, just seems like a bad idea. Even worse if they're still new to rebounding and hitting it. This is just my general ideas and how it wouldn't be so effective.
I mean it'd be great for novices but as for retardation and stuff, or for high tier combat I don't see it all that effective. Just seems more like somewhere along the lines it's going to get messy somewhere, or someone is going to mess up and you're going to flop or lose a combo. I personally had hotkeys set up for my envenoming, and I was always aware of what I was afflicting. Especially if they swap to kelp > bloodroot, my whole venom strategy changed. Or if I suddenly have them kelp stacked and wasn't sure if I could stick it, and I right now need to stack ginseng.

Cynder, this is a venom sheath for novices who DO NOT FUCKING HAVE ENVENOM. So no it is not "easier" if you can't do it. This way someone who does Toxicology can give the novice a sheathe with 50 pre-sequenced 'venom sets'. Sheathing the blade automatically wipes venoms iirc. Then you draw it with the correct order thanks to whoever gave you the scabbard, being unable to do any sort of venom work yourself whether you have vials or not.

It's not going to be flexible, but it's better than them having no venoms.

Kresslack

I think the point is....why the fuck do novices need to envenom anything? If they're part of a class which allows for envenoming, they're going to get that ability soon enough. Otherwise, they need to be learning how to use their class skills and in some instances where venoms can be thrown in as a supplemental ability, that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

Rispok

Xith said:

Yeah that wasn't part of the topic. Colours only applies to doing quivers. And since they aren't the only bow class, it might as well be split off if not added to the knights also.

The idea is for something marketable to people who cannot yet envenom their stuff. Unless Envenom is going to be added to all relevant classes like it was for Apostasy, in which case disregard.

Knights already have colours and always have.

Xith

Kresslack said:

I think the point is....why the fuck do novices need to envenom anything? If they're part of a class which allows for envenoming, they're going to get that ability soon enough. Otherwise, they need to be learning how to use their class skills and in some instances where venoms can be thrown in as a supplemental ability, that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

If those classes can get it immediately where it applies to some primary aspect of their class, I rest my case. 
Sentinel uses venoms. Jester uses venoms. Bards use venoms.
Jester needs it once they reach Mickey, Sentinel probably some point after Returning, and Bards I'm not sure but probably after Raze.

Weaponry should serve classes that generally should not focus on envenoming things, like monk and magi, and to improve throwing accuracy, gain the parrying defense, and eventually open up shatter for those who would like it. But tri-trans should serve your class's offense to its minimum potential at least, with weaponry possibly enhancing those skills.

Short of that, this sheath ability. Dis. Sheaf. Abiliteh.

Kresslack

Xith said:

Weaponry should serve classes that generally should not focus on envenoming things, like monk and magi

Kresslack said:

Otherwise, they need to be learning how to use their class skills and in some instances where venoms can be thrown in as a supplemental ability, that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

Xith

Kresslack said:

Xith said:

Weaponry should serve classes that generally should not focus on envenoming things, like monk and magi

Kresslack said:

Otherwise, they need to be learning how to use their class skills and in some instances where venoms can be thrown in as a supplemental ability, that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

Xith said:

If those classes can get it immediately where it applies to some primary aspect of their class, I rest my case. 
Sentinel uses venoms. Jester uses venoms. Bards use venoms.

Kresslack

Xith said:

If those classes can get it immediately where it applies to some primary aspect of their class, I rest my case. Sentinel uses venoms. Jester uses venoms. Bards use venoms.

Kresslack said:

that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

Addama

We're getting into a chicken-or-egg thing here.

If you don't have Envenom, the solution is to get Envenom.  If you want a workaround to the system, get somebody to Envenom your weapons for you.  This item is probably a poor use of coder time since Envenom is relatively accessible and, as I said before, there's already a workaround for novices who don't have Envenom.

Xith

Addama said:

We're getting into a chicken-or-egg thing here.

If you don't have Envenom, the solution is to get Envenom.  If you want a workaround to the system, get somebody to Envenom your weapons for you.  This item is probably a poor use of coder time since Envenom is relatively accessible and, as I said before, there's already a workaround for novices who don't have Envenom.

Addama said:

You can also have somebody envenom your weapons for you and give them back to you if you know the order that you'll want the venoms (like, have one all curare, one all aconite).

Short of this, learning Envenom is probably the best idea.

This is what you said. Which is exactly what this ability would do x50. So you don't have to get multiple weapons set up for a single fight when your first attempt fails. Making things more accessible to novices isn't a "poor use of coder time."

Kresslack said:

Xith said:

If those classes can get it immediately where it applies to some primary aspect of their class, I rest my case. Sentinel uses venoms. Jester uses venoms. Bards use venoms.

Kresslack said:

that's exactly why there's an Evenom skill in Weaponry.

No, Kressy-poo. That's why there's Envenom in Apostasy. That's why there is Envenom in Subterfuge and Chivalry. Weaponry is not part of a class, so it shouldn't be necessary for the basics of that class. That's why Envenom is now the 2nd or 3rd skill in Apostasy, while it wasn't before.

Addama

Xith said:

Making things more accessible to novices isn't a "poor use of coder time."

Then why not move Envenom to a starter skill in Weaponry if this is actually the goal?

Xith

Because I feel they won't do that, and this adds something interesting for Toxicologists to do.
Everybody already has to go to serpents/knights to get their quivers colored. This is the same thing but for novices and their blades.

Kresslack

Xith

Yeah, resolved. Explanations are all there. They'll take it or leave it.