Why are curatives so bereft of value? Is it because they don't decay..?

Antreus

I couldn't figure this quandary out until my great-great-great grandkid said to me, "Why yes, people just deposit their overflow into chests."

Ding-ding-ding. If you want more rift capacity then I'm sure Prospero Vaults will work for you so that we can see the price of cures rise a bit. It just seems to trivialize things and bypasses the stratagem in game, unless someone can give me a counterargument 

I hear oxidation does disastrous things to certain metals never exposed to the open air after their interred formation! Even the curative properties of essential plant oils lose their efficacy! Not in Achaea they don't :disagree: 

Accipiter

Because the game is designed around people having them. There was a time bloodroot was 250 per and it just breaks things

Achimrst

Most cures are barely used if you ask me.

Amarillys

The rift is your 'ready' supply. The overflow caches people use are their 'store' supply. This does not create reduced value (or at least shouldn't), what creates reduced value is competition and people not valuing their own time enough. All alchemical cures go for about 6gp/a piece but should likely vary because not all minerals are created with the same quantity of primes (cinnabar uses four! most others use 2-3). But a lot of people don't care, they sell it for six per to get the orders and so everyone else started selling for the same and now the amount of time that goes into making minerals is not equal to the amount of gold we get out of it. 6 gp for all in my opinion should be the discounted price for bulk orders. But it's not, so I sell it at the price otherwise I won't make a dime and I cut off a little for my friends because I want them to keep buying from me. It's a sad cycle that if I ever find out who started it is going to get punched in the face. ^_^

Shirszae

I've always thought those Vaults were about the worst way one could spend credits.

Amarillys

Vaults were probably good at some point, but with houses, ships, shops, furniture... there's enough places to cache your goods that they aren't so useful any more. I still wouldn't mind having one myself. I've lost probably... twenty thousand or so in overflow since I was eighteen because of death before I could get back to my cache.

Cooper

It's because people don't value their time spent on Achaea very highly. Harvesting only costs time after you invest the lessons to learn it.

Tharvis

Shirszae said:

I've always thought those Vaults were about the worst way one could spend credits.

I guess they're handy for shopowners though, or forestals/alchemists that stock shops

Shara

Tharvis said:

Shirszae said:

I've always thought those Vaults were about the worst way one could spend credits.

I guess they're handy for shopowners though, or forestals/alchemists that stock shops

This. I bought my first vault and realised I need bigger almost immediately. I sell in qualities of 2.5k+ directly. Most times in 5k groups of minerals. So the vault was a great investment for me.

For raiders who don't spend a lot of time running to ships and hiding in houses, having a rift is nice because they don't have to restock or go out of their way to have cures at the ready.

Antreus

Well, for me it seems like a steep entrance cost to get into the market unless I don't sell cheaper than what is already quite low. It starts to trivialize my time and the time I put into learning this skill. I went dormant for a period so to see the market this out of wack makes me kinda regret a few things. For one, not getting into the market sooner to absorb the cost of learning the skill in the first place.

I learned a trade skill to trade my disadvantage in bashing/hunting so that I could accomplish other tasks that one cannot multitask while hunting: administration etc. I almost want to start using credits for cures in order to see where demand actually rests. I'm seeing city credits going for 3,000 gs.. is there just an overabundance of supply everywhere?

Maybe I should just work directly with other craftsmen so I get what I need: armor, weapons, enchantments via bartering, so I can get by when I can't make a few orders. Then we'll see if potash is really 5 gold a piece: it's a requirement for higher level hunting which drop more $$$ - that's a good place to start estimating its worth.

Like what Amaryllis said, that should be the wholesale price, and the retail then marks up a 40-60% profit margin to pocket, but it seems that tradesmen make money by selling in their own shops at that price, which kills a lot of competition due to a much wider access to people in the marketplace.

It's like when you choose name-brand products over store-brand.

Willing to change my position, just thought it was a worthwhile discussion to have.

@Amarillys you got one thing right - repeat sales and established relationships with customers. It would be interesting to see the amount of concoctionists and transmutationists versus the active population of the game.

Daslin

Market ain't outta whack. Market is better than it's been for a while. Trying to put old herb cure prices on minerals won't sell a thing for you. Just sell around the price that others are, and you'll rake in the gold my mang.

Antreus

Ok

Sena

Daslin said:

Just sell around the price that others are, and you'll rake in the gold my mang.

Selling minerals around the price that others are means you're working for around 4k gold per hour (that's selling potash at 6 per), which is very low. At current mineral prices, it's ultimately cheaper for alchemists to buy minerals than to make them.

The market isn't the problem though. As people have said, the cause of the low prices is that people don't value their time, but that's inevitable, it's not something you can fix. The problem is how extraction/transmutation works. There's no scarcity, no cost other than time, and supply far outpaces demand.

Tonics and balms are the opposite though, because of being compared to elixir/salve prices. They're actually very overpriced for the amount of time they cost to produce; selling vitality refills for 150 gold is effectively getting you about 23k gold per hour, and I often see them go for 200, which is 31k gold per hour. All tonics and balms have the same time cost as well, so when you charge more for certain types, it's based on nothing more than tradition (elixir/salve prices) and gets you a lot of extra gold with no extra cost. Edit: Actually, there is a slight difference in cost between different tonics/balms, because of rift capacity. Certain primes/metals are more commonly used, but you can't just stock more of those if you're filling your rift. Although you can eliminate that problem by storing the extras in a secure location like a house, since they don't decay as Antreus said.

If tonics were priced like minerals currently are, a vitality refill would be less than 30 gold.

Cooper

I remember back in the day when herbs were in limited quantity. Moss would never sell below 50 per, and quite often went above 100. Most people couldn't afford to use moss in fights, and the people that did were basically unkillable 1v1.

Amarillys

I don't want it to be super expensive, but 10 gold per is more than reasonable, in my opinion. But if I sell for that, no one will ever buy. 

Xith

Amarillys said:

Vaults were probably good at some point, but with houses, ships, shops, furniture... there's enough places to cache your goods that they aren't so useful any more. I still wouldn't mind having one myself. I've lost probably... twenty thousand or so in overflow since I was eighteen because of death before I could get back to my cache.

Also no theft in Achaea, house robberies are hardly something to fear anymore.

Kresslack

It makes sense that herbs would be storeable and not decay, and whether intentionally or unintentionally, it reflects (in a way) how they were kept throughout RL history, where herbs were cut and hung to dry out and cure. As far as the value part, herbs and concoctions took a hit when Alchemists were introduced, because it offered people an alternative. These days, you have a lot of people both Forestal and Alchemist supplying the demand, though as I understand it, most people are using Alchemical curatives exclusively (save for the remnants of herbs they're trying to use up in their rift).

Antreus

Sena said:

Daslin said:

Just sell around the price that others are, and you'll rake in the gold my mang.

Selling minerals around the price that others are means you're working for around 4k gold per hour (that's selling potash at 6 per), which is very low. At current mineral prices, it's ultimately cheaper for alchemists to buy minerals than to make them.

The market isn't the problem though. As people have said, the cause of the low prices is that people don't value their time, but that's inevitable, it's not something you can fix. The problem is how extraction/transmutation works. There's no scarcity, no cost other than time, and supply far outpaces demand.

Tonics and balms are the opposite though, because of being compared to elixir/salve prices. They're actually very overpriced for the amount of time they cost to produce; selling vitality refills for 150 gold is effectively getting you about 23k gold per hour, and I often see them go for 200, which is 31k gold per hour. All tonics and balms have the same time cost as well, so when you charge more for certain types, it's based on nothing more than tradition (elixir/salve prices) and gets you a lot of extra gold with no extra cost. Edit: Actually, there is a slight difference in cost between different tonics/balms, because of rift capacity. Certain primes/metals are more commonly used, but you can't just stock more of those if you're filling your rift. Although you can eliminate that problem by storing the extras in a secure location like a house, since they don't decay as Antreus said.

If tonics were priced like minerals currently are, a vitality refill would be less than 30 gold.

This is exactly what I tried to convey on citytells the other day. And why I agree with Cooper 100%, people don't value their time, they just afk and synthesise brainlessly unaware, because that's how it is - why change it?

If you ask me, potash should be more expensive than health vials. They cost about the same in regeant costs, but you need potash to kill larger enemies you wouldn't otherwise be able to overcome with sip.

Potash is necessary for serious combat to help you manage your mana. It provides a lot of benefits and supplements your sip: it's like a combat steroid. If you spent that much on a skill to learn it, you damn well should let people cough up the money to use it. If they want to kill the big stuff, they need to cough up a bit extra from all the benefits you're providing them with. Just doubling the price of potash would give enough room for people to sell wholesale and still make a living for themselves. We'd all work a little less with less stress and you know what? A lot more Death too.

People undervalue how much they can charge for potash, when it is a high level skill in transmutation. Period. Gaining the ability to transmutate more potash at trans is supposed to be a benefit, not a burden.

I had the audacity to sell at 15gs over and the inanity in replies to my offer baffled me. I was being seen as unreasonable in my expectations! I value my time! I even have had to off-shore extraction tasks to my protege so that I could actually not be a slave to abysmally low prices, not really bettering myself. 

Looking at credit prices being low and shop keepers making tons of money, with small sellers getting shafted I thought why don't we just create socialized medicine and Transmutationists just have to meet quota to get paid if we're gonna make things worthless to sell, might as well spread it around.

Nim

The real answer: You guys haven't started a cutthroat mafia protecting the value of curatives.

I am almost positive that's happened in the past with herbal curatives though, and it's probably unfeasible to do with six mostly-diametrically opposed cities, but don't let that stop you from demanding protection money and kicking around young alchemists for giving their friends freebies!

I mean if there can be a piracy high clan, why not a mafia high clan!

Antreus

Some of those treaties, like the Mage Guild one, were so effective that I forgot until recently I could actually get resistance rings.

Addama

Why don't you start a revolution and try selling your potash on market for 15 per

Oh did that not work?

Daslin

As for Alchemists making money, I'll have to poke at @Shara for her avg amounts made daily vs how much time she spends in the lab actually transmuting, along with prime costs. I know she, at least, comes out on top rather well, even at cheapish prices. The way most alchemists (Read: Hashani) price things will ruin any treaty you set up between all of them, because cutthroat market and all. Dunno where else I planned on going with this, as I'm a little boozed up. Okay, more thna a little.

Blujixapug

Nim said:

The real answer: You guys haven't started a cutthroat mafia protecting the value of curatives.

I am almost positive that's happened in the past with herbal curatives though, and it's probably unfeasible to do with six mostly-diametrically opposed cities, but don't let that stop you from demanding protection money and kicking around young alchemists for giving their friends freebies!

I mean if there can be a piracy high clan, why not a mafia high clan!

'Oakstone prices' used to be a thing. But the real limiting factor of ye olde herbs/refills wasn't conforming to Oakstone. It was scarcity. You could sell bloodroot for 1 gold/per, but you'd soon run out, and the next guy could charge more. To harvest more and replenish your supply, you'd be competing with every other harvester for the finite amount of bloodroot that grew per day.

Alchemy has no meaningful scarcity built in, which I think is completely terrible, as it means there's no real economy around it.

I don't see how a price cartel could work. There are too many suppliers and no way to control them.

Antreus

@Blujixapug‌
Yeah, that's the first issue I had with it. I was baffled - why wouldn't they create some form of scarcity or equivalent in Concoctions. It's like warming your home with paper. It is flawed to design a system that deflationary. 

The only deterrent that I see is the fact that you have to learn how to extract the primes in Alchemy and get metallurgy before you can transmute things. You can extract before you even get transmutation.

Maybe they'll resolve these things once they remove tradeskills from classes?

Antreus

I love how Addama thinks I'm a whiny bitch. In regards to Antreus selling potash @ 15gs to spark a revolution, so far no one has bought it, because everyone sold their souls and now they occupy everyones 2500 stacked 5 gs rifts of potash.

Addama

Yeah, okay, way to edit that post after I agreed with it. 

Thing is, a lot of people make their curatives for citymates.  They don't do it for free, but they do it for cheap.  I do hunting runes for my citymates, and while it's nice to get inks for this, I usually do it for free.  Priests do blessings, which cost devotion.  Alchemists also do astronomy empowerments, which cost mana. 

We do these things for the collective benefits of our respective organizations.  If you don't get how that can be of value by itself, fine, but don't act like people are crazy because they're less self-serving than you.

Antreus

Addama said:

Yeah, okay, way to edit that post after I agreed with it. 

but don't act like people are crazy because they're less self-serving than you.

I just think you presume I do a lot of things for bad reasons, then. I actually edited it because I wanted to provide context and provide a bit of a repartee for your cheeky comment towards me and my roleplay, in an effort to test me. And now I realize that you weren't just being a hard ass, but now you're using it defame me as a person.

I only broached this topic because I see a broken system, not because I'm a self-serving mother fucker who doesn't care to help people. I honestly don't need to deal with an internet bully. Stop trying to box me in.

Edit: I called myself  a whiny bitch because that's how I feel many of your interactions towards me have been: chiding to discredit. I used it be self-deprecating, and show you my guts, so that you would understand I mean you no harm. I find it deplorable that you are calling me out on passive-aggressive behaviour when you're merely projecting yours.

Addama

You don't take constructive criticism very well if you call that "internet bullying."

Antreus

You're a troll and you've not provided anything constructive. In fact what you're doing is destructive. I'm flagging our whole vitriolic stain on this discussion.

Arador

A big reason why people do not value their time transmuting the same way they value it when bashing is that the former is basically workout any need to pay attention or impart effort. You can keep it open to the side while you watch a movie. With hunting and questing you at least have to give some attention to move, hit, check your health etc. 

So yes you make less an hour but so what? For most of that hour you did nothing. The current situation is fine. There is so much depth to Achaean combat, we don't need painstaking curative management and sourcing to make it interesting. 

Dortheron

Well, don't forget the primary reason Alchemists were made in the first place: to relieve stress on Forestal curing (through competition and an increased supply of cures) and to clean up RP for those against Nature. While the Alchemist class certainly has other benefits to it, if They had really wanted to, They could of made plants grow faster, reduce the cost to make potions, etc etc. By creating a second type of cures that people can shop for, it creates competition (which drives the prices down), enables more freedom of choice, and prevents stuff like cartels from being made (by restricting the availability of cures to one or more groups of people, thus driving the price up).

There is one other aspect that you're forgetting with this too: cheap cures makes combat much more available to newbies and the poor, as well as making it less about who's willing to pay the most to win. At one point, spamming paralysis was a viable tactic, because they would a) try to preserve their very expensive bloodroot by not using it, or b) eat it all trying to survive and run out. By making cures very cheap, you can have level 30+ newbies being able to survive hunting/learning about cures without worrying about the cost, as well as extended duels/raids and not have to worry about my supplies.

I do agree with what has been said: Alchemy and Concoctions can be adjusted better to help with the price and making it more profitable/less time consuming. But cheap cures are ultimately a benefit to the whole, even if it sucks for the individual.

@Antreus it's true that adjustments and such are most likely going to come after the trade skills are removed from classes, as it's an important step to multiclassing. When everyone and their dog can gather minerals/plants, the economy of the situation will be drastically changed.