Thought experiment time: What if Mhaldor chose the Forestal classes over Alchemists? Play it out.

Antreus

reserved

Achimrst

We did that once it was before Alchemists were a class :P

Basically forestals got enemied for selling to Mhaldor or something, and eventually they said they wouldn't exterminate if forestals gave them concoctions or something.

Shirszae

Sartan would appear and massive amounts of bloodshed would ensue until they changed their mind

Morthif

They were given the option but not really

Antreus

I started copy parts of the Apocrypha to rationalize my irrationalization of using grove users as aphids to derive essence from via extermination rejuvenation looping, but I think the nefarious words corrupted my post and it wouldn't send on my edit.

Dortheron

One of the points of the Alchemist class was to clean up RP for this very reason: Mhaldorian Forestals. It didn't make much sense to have a Mhaldorian yell "Burn Nature!" and then go ahead and eat a ton of plants to survive raiding. Very hypocritical to use the very thing you're trying to destroy.

As to what would happen now if they did that...a very big shift in Mhaldorian politics and roleplay would be required, resulting in a lot of bloodshed, yelling and complaining on public news, and the Garden stepping in to preserve the RP they want. There is a reason things are the way they are, after all.

Kresslack

Antreus

I almost think its worth finding all my theological highlights from the Apocrypha that have to do with harvesting and breeding with your enemies. But I'm okay with letting this topic die. 

People realize that this was just a for funsies post right? lol

Jovolo

Your choice was an illusion.

Aepas

Shala-Khulia could happen in more places. Druid4lyfe

Xith

They would be renamed 'Necroplantsers'.

Antreus

As an older player and someone as someone who has roleplayed a neutral character, I've always seen Forestal Militarism as a Neutral-Evil thing. If you've read the Viridian Charter recently it seems that Sartan is actually a member of Oakstone.  I think that's what inspired this post a bit from that end. When I was in Mhaldor the other day the Viridian charter just appear in my mind as I read the Apocrypha (please allow the Apocrypha to undergo a Reformation period as the Viridian Charter is making some parts of the Apocrypha too goody). 

The Viridian Charter is quite clear and unapologetic: All cities must die so that Nature can thrive unmolested, uninhibited. After reading this I immediately thought, 'Eleusis shouldn't call itself a village any longer - seems a bit hypocritical.'



There's not a clause about breeding with city folk (like in the Apocrypha) and converting them - nothing like that! Nothing about encouraging sustainable architecture, stewardship, forestry, or composting.  I just don't see how they plan on going about accomplishing their mission unless it is feature to allow them to have cause to attack any non-forestal heathen: constantly keeping them embroiled in conflict, which is why I ventured to simply remove Alchemists from Mhaldor and just accept evil forestals who believe Nature unchecked is just as disastrous as total annihilation. But, thinking this through, Mhaldorian views on Evil would have to reform a bit to take this split in order to work with Forestals who take into account the destructive side of nature.


MEANDERING QUITE A BIT 

When I came to write this post I was thinking some of these things:  what is taking the roleplay in this direction - why isn't there just an evil faction of forestals so that Oakstone doesn't have to be militarily expansionistic or aggressively claiming all nature as theirs, because they are its custodians.  Back in the day FORESTHUGGERS was cause to be enemied, simply because it was more neutral than other organizations. It's just odd to observe forestal characters I've known forced into exile and ousted, when their views are not antithetical to nature, but due to technicalities. 

Some questions I often wonder: Are forests without a forest spirit connected to Gaia's realm? I would say no. We see these emanations only when a god's essence is what sustains them. Since Twilight is entwined to the Darkenwood, if his essence leaves, the whole forest dies. We saw this when the Te'Serra attacked, and have seen it repeatedly with every Nature deity. It's the same with the other forests with Spirits, and perhaps what gives Grove users their power. I know for a fact that I haven't thought clearly about it in this way. I was living my character's life as a forestal in some sort of delusion. I operated under the assumption that being a forestal was about guarding the balance of life and death in accordance with the dogmatic expression: the Circle of Life and Death as seen in the Old Gaian temple.

One way to counter-balance this would be to make a forestal class that uses necromancy or some such.



Extremism everywhere and the neutrals are anarchists or CIJ members.

Cyrene seems to be the place you end up if you don't want to be constantly pulled into factionalism. But, I still have hope that Delos or some other such village can transform like Hashan did to be a foil to Cyrene, and just allow non-factional classes.

We call Delos, old Hashan, and Thera villages - why pretend Eleusis is just that. In fact, Delos is what Eleusis used to be. What is between a Village and a City-state? Eleusis has all the features of a city-state - so isn't it just that? Player shops, subdivisions, an eidolon guardian, credit sales and so on, but they've conveniently left out the rats - apparently they can't climb trees, and the jesters all re-educate them!    

Addama

Antreus said:

One only way to counter-balance this would be to make a forestal class that uses necromancy or some such.

Why fix something that isn't broken?  Forestals who want conflict are happy to have it out with Evil/Chaos, while Evil/Chaos have their own source of curatives so that they don't need to use flimsy RP to include Forestals in their cities.

Kresslack

Why would any forestal class have, or want, Necromancy? I'm not sure why that would be a thing, considering it's a strictly Evil aligned skillset and is anthame to Forestry for most parts (i.e. Extermination). There were people in the past who were Druids and Sylvans in Mhaldor, but even today they are encouraged to change to something more appropriate for the Mhaldor culture.

I understand and fully support faction based classes such as Priest/Paladin, Infernal, and Sentinel (/Druid?). A lot of people have been at odds with Nature for a while now, but were forced to accept it to some degree because that's the only way they could get curatives. Alchemy was a great addition because it no longer forces faction members to conform and contradict their faction status in order to get curatives.

Antreus

Addama said:

Antreus said:

One only way to counter-balance this would be to make a forestal class that uses necromancy or some such.

Why fix something that isn't broken?  Forestals who want conflict are happy to have it out with Evil/Chaos, while Evil/Chaos have their own source of curatives so that they don't need to use flimsy RP to include Forestals in their cities.

I'm mostly at this point thinking of ways that they could have simply expanded upon the red fog, @Xith Necroplansters RP that was already in place within Mhaldor. I am trying to think of what makes a forestal a forestal also. Is it concoctions? Is it groves? Is it woodlore? Is it being a member of Eleusis? Is it about Nature > all other organizations. What the hell does it mean?

I'm all fine with Alchemists and Gaia not mixing, but I'd also want to know why that is from an RP standpoint. It's merely putting the focus on an external threat, without resolving the inconsistency within forestal groups/sects. If you don't agree, then you just have to put up with it, otherwise you're not a forestal.

I am trying to figure out what a character is if they _are_ a forestal and are not apart of a forestal organization. This is where RP is overshadowed by technicality: how do you RP that when the character is consistent, but there's no room for them? You see Sylvans in the Merchants, but is this just a vestigial happenstance?


MEANDERING A BIT
 I've read the literature on the red fog experiments and thought they were great whoever wrote them - forget now.

Kresslack

I think @Lodi wrote about the red fog experiments, and attempted to explain how it was created (not going to post details here, because it's worth finding and looking into IG), but I don't remember anything forestry relating being in it. It's my understanding that it was introduced to counter flora growth on the Isle.

There are a lot of Sylvans and Druids and some Sentinels which aren't part of Eleusis, but I think there was something put in place to where a city could choose not to accept those classes anymore if they are Alchemist aligned. I would think this would put those classes somewhat in the same category as classes that utilize Necromancy or Devotionalism, just not to such an extreme degree.

Addama

If you want to know about Forestal RP (i.e. their guiding principles and motivations, what puts them at odds with Evil/Chaos), you should just start up an Eleusis alt and learn all you can.

Antreus

Kresslack said:

Why would any forestal class have, or want, Necromancy? I'm not sure why that would be a thing, considering it's a strictly Evil aligned skillset and is anthame to Forestry for most parts (i.e. Extermination). There were people in the past who were Druids and Sylvans in Mhaldor, but even today they are encouraged to change to something more appropriate for the Mhaldor culture.

I understand and fully support faction based classes such as Priest/Paladin, Infernal, and Sentinel (/Druid?). A lot of people have been at odds with Nature for a while now, but were forced to accept it to some degree because that's the only way they could get curatives. Alchemy was a great addition because it no longer forces faction members to conform and contradict their faction status in order to get curatives.

Why would any forestal class have, or want Necromancy: 1) because they feel death isn't a philosophical concept that is widely practiced, with a preference learning towards thriving instead of survival of the fittest 2) I support and understand faction based classes, too. 3) I am mostly criticizing inconsistencies in RP as I see them.
 

Based on what I"ve witnessed: anything is possible (Twilight merge in Darkenwood, red fog lycopods, grove recycling with extermination and rejuvenation) and anything bad that can happen will happen in these sorts of dilemmas that seem purely one sided.

I am not disagreeing with your logic at all. But, just trying to point out how we automatically bend the rules to make sense of overriding actions of the Garden, which need to happen: access to curatives.

This doesn't always resolve the pre-existing political differences and RP divisions for people residing within the Factions themselves that are diametrically opposed and incompatible with other beliefs outside of their organizations. Instead, it makes it easier to gloss over 'political unrest/alternative views' and put the attention on external incompatibilities, disregarding their on internal inconsistencies.

If Mhaldor allowed forestals instead of alchemists Mhaldor could still get curatives from both sides of the spectrum. Since Forestals are wholly against Transmutations from a ideological angle and Mhaldor is not. Depending on the amount of forests preserved from extermination would place more emphasis on protecting forests with forest spirits, and allow forests outside this demesne to be free-reign. Again, I'm just playing out scenarios.

Several things, based on my above explanation of the connection between Groves-Gaia-Forest Spirits that isn't really talked about, adds a criticism to the whole topic of Alchemy v. Concoctions.

One of these ideas is should essence derived from Extermination be more beneficial if it is derived from a forest linked to a forest spirit, and secondly, should Oakstone abilities work in areas that are not protected by Forest spirits.

I broach this in such a way, while iconoclastic, shows the inconsistency of Oakstone (unless I've understood the extent of their powers). No forest spirit = no Oakstone powers in forest rooms. Just like having no permanent imprint from a Grove user in a forest prevents them from using several abilities (unless this has also changed)

Gaia created Oakstone, but she doesn't have forest spirits in every forest or garden. This creates an inroad to using forestals in Mhaldor to constantly restore forest lands so that essence is available, making non-aligned Oakstone forests contested territory. This I feel is more consistent with the Viridian Charter's militaristic stance.

Achimrst

Antreus said:

As an older player and someone as someone who has roleplayed a neutral character, I've always seen Forestal Militarism as a Neutral-Evil thing. If you've read the Viridian Charter recently it seems that Sartan is actually a member of Oakstone.  I think that's what inspired this post a bit from that end. When I was in Mhaldor the other day the Viridian charter just appear in my mind as I read the Apocrypha (please allow the Apocrypha to undergo a Reformation period as the Viridian Charter is making some parts of the Apocrypha too goody). 

The Viridian Charter is quite clear and unapologetic: All cities must die so that Nature can thrive unmolested, uninhibited. After reading this I immediately thought, 'Eleusis shouldn't call itself a village any longer - seems a bit hypocritical.'



There's not a clause about breeding with city folk (like in the Apocrypha) and converting them - nothing like that! Nothing about encouraging sustainable architecture, stewardship, forestry, or composting.  I just don't see how they plan on going about accomplishing their mission unless it is feature to allow them to have cause to attack any non-forestal heathen: constantly keeping them embroiled in conflict, which is why I ventured to simply remove Alchemists from Mhaldor and just accept evil forestals who believe Nature unchecked is just as disastrous as total annihilation. But, thinking this through, Mhaldorian views on Evil would have to reform a bit to take this split in order to work with Forestals who take into account the destructive side of nature.


MEANDERING QUITE A BIT 

When I came to write this post I was thinking some of these things:  what is taking the roleplay in this direction - why isn't there just an evil faction of forestals so that Oakstone doesn't have to be militarily expansionistic or aggressively claiming all nature as theirs, because they are its custodians.  Back in the day FORESTHUGGERS was cause to be enemied, simply because it was more neutral than other organizations. It's just odd to observe forestal characters I've known forced into exile and ousted, when their views are not antithetical to nature, but due to technicalities. 

Some questions I often wonder: Are forests without a forest spirit connected to Gaia's realm? I would say no. We see these emanations only when a god's essence is what sustains them. Since Twilight is entwined to the Darkenwood, if his essence leaves, the whole forest dies. We saw this when the Te'Serra attacked, and have seen it repeatedly with every Nature deity. It's the same with the other forests with Spirits, and perhaps what gives Grove users their power. I know for a fact that I haven't thought clearly about it in this way. I was living my character's life as a forestal in some sort of delusion. I operated under the assumption that being a forestal was about guarding the balance of life and death in accordance with the dogmatic expression: the Circle of Life and Death as seen in the Old Gaian temple.

One way to counter-balance this would be to make a forestal class that uses necromancy or some such.



Extremism everywhere and the neutrals are anarchists or CIJ members.

Cyrene seems to be the place you end up if you don't want to be constantly pulled into factionalism. But, I still have hope that Delos or some other such village can transform like Hashan did to be a foil to Cyrene, and just allow non-factional classes.

We call Delos, old Hashan, and Thera villages - why pretend Eleusis is just that. In fact, Delos is what Eleusis used to be. What is between a Village and a City-state? Eleusis has all the features of a city-state - so isn't it just that? Player shops, subdivisions, an eidolon guardian, credit sales and so on, but they've conveniently left out the rats - apparently they can't climb trees, and the jesters all re-educate them!    

You are clearly not a forestal, the charter is almost exactly like what Babelites say oblivion is. You don't make it happen it just happens over time and is inevitable. It is not a KILL ALL CITIES cry like you seem to think it is, although it can definitely be interpreted that way just like Oblivion can be interpreted as KILL EVERYTHING!

Forest spirits were put there as some kind of mechanic for the forests after Gaia left, they had some kind of potion you made and then just kind of sat around there invincible from what I remember. Not sure why you thought you were protecting life and death, I never got that impression from being a forestal we have always been protecting the forest from extermination and enemies because they don't stand still long enough for the forest to kill them!

I can say Rangor is the Militaristic part of Eleusis/Nature as MoW and the Sentinels call Oakstone some kind of tool to use to defend the forest. I'm not sure why you simply equate Necromancy to evil, a forestal can be evil they just choose not to be I guess because they are always fighting with Sartan, the proverbial god of evil, because he says kill the forests and piss off the forestals.

Amarillys

Asking Mhaldor if they wanted forestal cures or alchemical ones seems to me like it was a rhetorical question.

Achimrst

Antreus said:

Kresslack said:

Why would any forestal class have, or want, Necromancy? I'm not sure why that would be a thing, considering it's a strictly Evil aligned skillset and is anthame to Forestry for most parts (i.e. Extermination). There were people in the past who were Druids and Sylvans in Mhaldor, but even today they are encouraged to change to something more appropriate for the Mhaldor culture.

I understand and fully support faction based classes such as Priest/Paladin, Infernal, and Sentinel (/Druid?). A lot of people have been at odds with Nature for a while now, but were forced to accept it to some degree because that's the only way they could get curatives. Alchemy was a great addition because it no longer forces faction members to conform and contradict their faction status in order to get curatives.

Why would any forestal class have, or want Necromancy: 1) because they feel death isn't a philosophical concept that is widely practiced, with a preference learning towards thriving instead of survival of the fittest 2) I support and understand faction based classes, too. 3) I am mostly criticizing inconsistencies in RP as I see them.
 

Based on what I"ve witnessed: anything is possible (Twilight merge in Darkenwood, red fog lycopods, grove recycling with extermination and rejuvenation) and anything bad that can happen will happen in these sorts of dilemmas that seem purely one sided.

I am not disagreeing with your logic at all. But, just trying to point out how we automatically bend the rules to make sense of overriding actions of the Garden, which need to happen: access to curatives.

This doesn't always resolve the pre-existing political differences and RP divisions for people residing within the Factions themselves that are diametrically opposed and incompatible with other beliefs outside of their organizations. Instead, it makes it easier to gloss over 'political unrest/alternative views' and put the attention on external incompatibilities, disregarding their on internal inconsistencies.

If Mhaldor allowed forestals instead of alchemists Mhaldor could still get curatives from both sides of the spectrum. Since Forestals are wholly against Transmutations from a ideological angle and Mhaldor is not. Depending on the amount of forests preserved from extermination would place more emphasis on protecting forests with forest spirits, and allow forests outside this demesne to be free-reign. Again, I'm just playing out scenarios.

Several things, based on my above explanation of the connection between Groves-Gaia-Forest Spirits that isn't really talked about, adds a criticism to the whole topic of Alchemy v. Concoctions.

One of these ideas is should essence derived from Extermination be more beneficial if it is derived from a forest linked to a forest spirit, and secondly, should Oakstone abilities work in areas that are not protected by Forest spirits.

I broach this in such a way, while iconoclastic, shows the inconsistency of Oakstone (unless I've understood the extent of their powers). No forest spirit = no Oakstone powers in forest rooms. Just like having no permanent imprint from a Grove user in a forest prevents them from using several abilities (unless this has also changed)

Gaia created Oakstone, but she doesn't have forest spirits in every forest or garden. This creates an inroad to using forestals in Mhaldor to constantly restore forest lands so that essence is available, making non-aligned Oakstone forests contested territory. This I feel is more consistent with the Viridian Charter's militaristic stance.

On necromancy, everything I have read about it is that Thoth, the god of Death, doesn't care for it at all. Yet that is just an impression I got from talking to people about it so not sure what he thinks about it honestly! On Necromancy and forestals, exterminations are the only reason that forestals are against evil, give them necromany and it will be a huge WTF since we ban Necromany in Eleusis and anyone who uses exterminate get enemied to nature! I think that's why Holobomb no longer destroys forest rooms as well, because forestals could "accidentally" exterminate a room with one. So they did kind of have Necromancy already and I'm sure some Sylvans holobombed rooms on purpose making them evil I guess....although it's not Necromancy that makes Apostates or Infernals evil it just gives them an ability which is controlled by Sartan.

The forest spirits were probably only in forests that were around when the spirits were "made" for forestals back when Gaia dispersed! Exterminations are already basically free essence for the necromancer, giving them more won't do anything but give them more.... it's pretty useless if you ask me, spirits aren't signposts that Oakstone works here they have a purpose and well now they are gone since Gaia ate them!

Antreus

Achimrst said:

Antreus said:

You are clearly not a forestal, the charter is almost exactly like what Babelites say oblivion is. You don't make it happen it just happens over time and is inevitable. It is not a KILL ALL CITIES cry like you seem to think it is, although it can definitely be interpreted that way just like Oblivion can be interpreted as KILL EVERYTHING!

Forest spirits were put there as some kind of mechanic for the forests after Gaia left, they had some kind of potion you made and then just kind of sat around there invincible from what I remember. Not sure why you thought you were protecting life and death, I never got that impression from being a forestal we have always been protecting the forest from extermination and enemies because they don't stand still long enough for the forest to kill them!

I can say Rangor is the Militaristic part of Eleusis/Nature as MoW and the Sentinels call Oakstone some kind of tool to use to defend the forest. I'm not sure why you simply equate Necromancy to evil, a forestal can be evil they just choose not to be I guess because they are always fighting with Sartan, the proverbial god of evil, because he says kill the forests and piss off the forestals.

I think may be confusing my actions as Antreus the Character with my understanding and perception of things as a player. This isn't a rant, but I am trying to approach things in a way that makes certain things more perceptible from a paradigmatic perspective as I've seen them.

My character is not currently a forestal. He's an alchemist. That doesn't mean I don't have a perspective as a player on certain inconsistencies that I've witnessed as a character after roleplaying a forestal for more than half of my character's existence - which is what I'm sharing. Antreus as a character is extremely conflicted, because he sees Transmutation and Concoctions utilizing similar frameworks, and that he is wanting to understand the nature of .. well, everything, without compromising his integrity or sympathies with being custodial in regards the Wild places of the world.

======
Thanks for sharing what I italicized, because it is informative to the historicity of events.

My argument, however, is rooted on the nature of that historicity. If Gaia or another Nature deity leaves or is forcibly removed: the forests suffer. Typically, from what I've experienced this happens to forests who have forest spirits. This is why I bring up the concept of essence and extermination. Should extermination only work in forests that have forest spirits, because they are directly link (based on the observation above) to Gaia's realm, and thus extermination attacks HER essence.

When I was a forestal I got the impression that we were protecting the balance between life and death. Extermination was the most vile act, because it undermined sustainability and stewardship. But, then you start realizing questioning that from a metaphysical standpoint. Is extermination just that, or is it an attack on a God's essence, which necromancers use. When this paradigm is discovered it causes a bit of cognitive dissonance.

To answer your third point:
Why am I equating Necromancy with evil: I'm not trying to do this, in fact, I'm trying to make sense of necromancy, due to how it is counterbalanced by restoration, or the presence of woodland fires and once upon a time holocaust bombs. I don't want to see Necromancy aligned evil, just like I don't wish to see groves aligned with what is good and natural, because as a player I see them as two sides of the same coin.  They are however aligned with Divine that are diametrically opposed organizationally, even though players have consistently found ways to exist outside these confines.

What is and isn't natural? Why is tending a Grove more Natural than Necromancy, or is it? Aren't they merely custodial aspects impinging upon Nature in a symbiotic manner or an parasitical nature. When is destruction good, and when is creation bad. When do our player understandings of what is natural override our understanding of what is NATURE in Achaea. I'm working with semantics, yes - but they underpin a lot of assumptions we make off the cuff.

Again, I'm just thinking of things independently of how Antreus has acted as a player, but things that me of a player have found inconsistent or awkward to reason.

Achimrst

Antreus said:

Achimrst said:

Antreus said:

You are clearly not a forestal, the charter is almost exactly like what Babelites say oblivion is. You don't make it happen it just happens over time and is inevitable. It is not a KILL ALL CITIES cry like you seem to think it is, although it can definitely be interpreted that way just like Oblivion can be interpreted as KILL EVERYTHING!

Forest spirits were put there as some kind of mechanic for the forests after Gaia left, they had some kind of potion you made and then just kind of sat around there invincible from what I remember. Not sure why you thought you were protecting life and death, I never got that impression from being a forestal we have always been protecting the forest from extermination and enemies because they don't stand still long enough for the forest to kill them!

I can say Rangor is the Militaristic part of Eleusis/Nature as MoW and the Sentinels call Oakstone some kind of tool to use to defend the forest. I'm not sure why you simply equate Necromancy to evil, a forestal can be evil they just choose not to be I guess because they are always fighting with Sartan, the proverbial god of evil, because he says kill the forests and piss off the forestals.

I think may be confusing my actions as Antreus the Character with my understanding and perception of things as a player. This isn't a rant, but I am trying to approach things in a way that makes certain things more perceptible from a paradigmatic perspective as I've seen them.

My character is not currently a forestal. He's an alchemist. That doesn't mean I don't have a perspective as a player on certain inconsistencies that I've witnessed as a character after roleplaying a forestal for more than half of my character's existence - which is what I'm sharing. Antreus as a character is extremely conflicted, because he sees Transmutation and Concoctions utilizing similar frameworks, and that he is wanting to understand the nature of .. well, everything, without compromising his integrity or sympathies with being custodial in regards the Wild places of the world.

======
Thanks for sharing what I italicized, because it is informative to the historicity of events.

My argument, however, is rooted on the nature of that historicity. If Gaia or another Nature deity leaves or is forcibly removed: the forests suffer. Typically, from what I've experienced this happens to forests who have forest spirits. This is why I bring up the concept of essence and extermination. Should extermination only work in forests that have forest spirits, because they are directly link (based on the observation above) to Gaia's realm, and thus extermination attacks HER essence.

When I was a forestal I got the impression that we were protecting the balance between life and death. Extermination was the most vile act, because it undermined sustainability and stewardship. But, then you start realizing questioning that from a metaphysical standpoint. Is extermination just that, or is it an attack on a God's essence, which necromancers use. When this paradigm is discovered, you 

To answer your third point:
Why am I equating Necromancy with evil: I'm not trying to do this, in fact, I'm trying to make sense of necromancy, due to how it is counterbalanced by restoration, or the presence of woodland fires and once upon a time holocaust bombs. I don't want to see Necromancy aligned evil, just like I don't wish to see groves aligned with what is good and natural, because as a player I see them as two sides of the same coin.  They are however aligned with Divine that are diametrically opposed organizationally, even though players have consistently found ways to exist outside these confines.

What is and isn't natural? Why is tending a Grove more Natural than Necromancy, or is it? Aren't they merely custodial aspects impinging upon Nature in a symbiotic manner or an parasitical nature. When is destruction good, and when is creation bad. When do our player understandings of what is natural override our understanding of what is NATURE in Achaea. I'm working with semantics, yes - but they underpin a lot of assumptions we make off the cuff.

Again, I'm just thinking of things independently of how Antreus has acted as a player, but things that me of a player have found inconsistent or awkward to reason.

In my view, you simply don't know what nature is because you don't really ask the people of Eleusis, although even if you do ask them they are going to give you an assortment of answers. Yet it's ultimately Gaia who defines nature so if you want to understand it more IC your best bet is to just ask her.

Kresslack

I wouldn't say your best bet to learn about what Nature is would be to directly approach Gaia for a lesson. This typically goes for any divine. They have Orders for a reason. Ask over Market to speak to an Order member and I'm sure you'll get in touch with someone who can answer your questions, or at least point you in the right direction.

Linton

I think you ask good questions here in this thread. I think the Achaea today has changed alot from when you were previously active. Factions have become much more organised, many having their own factional skills. Most of all the different coloured pieces have their own corner on the game board. While cleaner segregation facilitates some aspects of gameplay. I feel it also kind of stop people from delving deeper into the fabric of the world. Afterall, if as suggested, if all we need to do is ask the current reincarnation of the Divine of whatever aspect and what they say is so, where is the room for mental work?

Probably related, when I see the Merchant and then subsequently the SerpentLords seperating from Hashan, it creates a positive feeling within me. Not because I have any feelings or knowledge about the mentioned orgs, but because it made me feeling that not everything is static and already set it their place. Things still have room to move around. Things can still be studied and discovered. And that makes me happy as a player to see.