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Fast Travel in Raids
Since everyone simultaneously complained about the previous discussion while participating in it, due to it being in Combat Logs... problem solved.
Moving discussion of using unstoppable fast travel abilities to this thread, so potential fixes can be discussed.
Please note that this is intended to be a combat balance (both 1v1 and group combat) discussion. Your emotions and personal feelings about me or anyone else have nothing to do with this thread. If you can't make your point and back it up with actual facts or justification, then don't even bother posting.
Short Version _____________
I'm calling for most "unstoppable" and/or "instant" fast travel abilities to be changed to allow more realistic/meaningful 1v1 and group combat.
I'm also calling for Orb of Confinement to be upgraded to having a meaningful purpose: preventing fast travel in/out of cities.
__________________________
Personally, I think that several abilities are currently very broken for 1v1 combat:
Raido - stopped only by monolith but can be used off balance (after attaching a mushroom sigil). This also happens to allow tactics such as swapping to 5 second, 40%+ DSL rapiers and using Raido immediately following the DSL, allowing burst damage with none of the designed drawbacks/counters.
Can be used to slow prep using DSL in 1v1, bypassing all hindrance, and is frequently used to instantly fast-travel in and out of cities during raids, and can (as described) work instantly after mushroom sigils, bypassing monoliths (the only thing that prevents it). Also allows following through Raido, allowing entire raid groups to instantly travel in/out of cities, even days later.
Needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement
Universe - includes a warning message, but is up for a very long amount of time. Also ignores every hindrance ability in the game, and bypasses monoliths on both ends. Totally unnecessary for the class. Presumably originally existed (before pathfinder was implemented) for convenience/flavor, but is currently primarily used to slow prep death in 1v1, and to instantly teleport entire raid groups out of danger in enemy cities. Can also be kept up virtually forever by just re-throwing Universe cards, allowing bypass of the only balancing feature of the ability, which is the delay between casting and disappearing.
Should probably just be deleted. Otherwise, needs a windup or should respect hindrance like normal movement. Should also stop if the caster dies. (note that Occultist doesn't need uni/pathfinder in 1v1 due to astralform which already bypasses hindrance, but has viable counters)
Pathfinder - Respects Piety/Gravehands, but ignores everything else, including monoliths. Able to kill the ent, but similarly able to be instantly resummoned. Frequently used by occultists to slow prep or flee when combat doesn't go their way. Also used by Occultists to instantly travel anywhere in the same plane, to allow earring groups to follow.
Needs a windup, and probably some other form of limitiation like a cooldown or massive karma cost to prevent prep/pathfinder looping. Should also be limited to area-only, or perhaps even a certain distance.
Puppet/Doll Travel - Probably the most overpowered instant-travel ability in the game. Instant, unstoppable, bypasses every form of hindrance in the game, including monoliths at either end, to any location worldwide. Can have dolls on as many allies as they like, and can puppet travel to any of them, at any time, period. Stopped only by two broken arms or prone lock, something that only a few classes in the game have access to.
Puppet travel completely destroys 1v1 combat for both Shaman and Jester, as it allows an infinite and almost entirely unstoppable method for slow-prepping with zero risk. Even limb damage can't be used to counter it, as users of this ability frequently have their limbs reset before returning.
Needs to have a significant windup and should have a very large willpower cost added to discourage fashion/run looping. Puppet travel should also respect every form of hindrance that would affect normal walking movement, aside from exit-based hindrance like rubble/walls.
Should also be limited to having a doll on one person at a time. Being able to hold 10+ dolls and travel around to everyone in the game at any time is completely broken.
Orb of Confinement (city upgrade)
Currently extremely expensive, and stops only flying and Duanathar. Nobody uses it, and haven't for a very, very long time. The reason for this is that it stops virtually nothing. The purpose of the upgrade is to prevent fast-travel out of the city, however it doesn't stop fast travel out of the city. Considering that almost every single person who raids Targossas has access to at least one, if not multiple means of fast-traveling out of the city, stopping Duanathar is completely meaningless. In fact, since normal hindrance abilities already stop Duanathar, but do not stop most other things (see above), the Orb is additionally unecessary.
Fix:
Orb of confinement should stop all fast travel abilities out of the city, including (but not limited to) everything listed above. I would recommend that one exception be added for portals, to allow raids to be initiated and to allow citizens to get around.
Note: Should not stop active abilities used by other people, such as Deliver, Empress, and so on. This would also add to raid feasibility and balanced travel convenience/ability.
Please discuss, but please do so in a way that is constructive, or don't post at all.
1
Comments
Solution 2 is chainable and totally pointless.
Solution 1 was the only appropriate fix, and should also have additional limitations which I explained and justified above.
Monolith does not counter Raido.
Mushroom was given a balance to fix this, but off-balance Raido makes it negligible.
You know this - please try to see this objectively.
The only other counter is Silence vibe (which does have a delay), and which, obviously, is available only to a single class, and thus irrelevant for 1v1 and the majority of raids.
EDIT: added non, because I'm a derpwad.
Note that nobody said to delete it. Just asking for it to not be 100% instant and unstoppable.
Also note: You aren't entitled to survive raids in enemy cities, particularly when massively outnumbered, a concept that I think the entire playerbase would do well to adopt.
Eleusis does nice stuttering work.
How about prone/sleeplocking someone? You have stated its an easy counter to some of your OP shit, do it to us and its easy to do in raids.
Entanglement is also good, so go get that enmesh looping dragon. Teach them not to only tailsweep but to alternate enmesh on target and then tailsweep while writhe and loopity loop loop loop looooooop
Comparing Raido to Angel sacrifice is ridiculous. You can't use Angel Sacrifice to fast travel or slow prep, and it absolutely can't be repeated over and over again in 1v1 combat. It also doesn't allow entire raid groups to travel into/out of cities.
You also can't chain Angel Sacrifice on the exact same balance as a 40% damage attack.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
So far 2/3 people who have replied have responded with personal attacks or at least personal accusations/justifications for class balance suggestions.
Actually respond with things that make sense, or get out of my thread.
I haven't personally attacked you, nor accused of weird justifications beyond what I've seen. (See: Top-tier bias) I don't see anything inflammatory from Nemu, @Bluef's just a craycraytrollprincess though. Might be all her!
I should have stated this in the OP, but one of the core "bad aspects" of raids/skirmishes these days is that group combat is all about who has the most fast travel, and which, if any, can currently be prevented based on who is online in the defending city.
It's absolutely ridiculous that a group of 15 can rush a group of 4 and one or zero of the raiders dies because they instantly fast travel out, than instantly fast travel back in on a totem they smudged at little to no risk in the first place.
For combat to be meaningful, you should actually have to be present for it, and stay that way, at least within some constraints.
I'm going to go ahead and be a little frank.
I'm not that interested in hearing from the people who are currently using these mechanics to fast-travel during raids. We already know you support them, because you use them constantly. It's also fairly obvious that Ashtan has significantly more abilities and artefacts available that allow fast travel mid combat than anyone else. So obviously you're going to support that to continue being the governing dynamic of combat.
Okay, first of all - wrong forum area for this. Paladins don't even have raido, universe, pathfinder, or puppet/doll travel.
Second, I think people with these abilities would be willing to discuss your concerns if you were willing to listen to why they think things are in most cases working just fine.
Third, I thought Raido could be countered by a silence vibe, by breaking legs, by putting someone to sleep, and (far easiest of all solutions) by throwing a monolith down.
Fourth, puppet/doll travel can be countered by breaking their arms so they're not holding the doll, by forcing them to unwield doll or to wield something else, and I'm sure by other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment because I'm not actually logged into Mudlet.
Fifth, I don't know anyone who slow preps using puppet travel. Maybe I'm missing some giant jester/shaman conspiracy that has recently arisen but the problem for jesters/shamans in 1v1 (which is specifically what your OP mentioned) is the opposite from what you've described here: People run to cities to hide from us, not vice-versa.
There. I hope that makes sense. If not, walk away from your computer for a while, cool down and see if it does when you return.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Also, mushroom balance had nothing to do with raido, it had everything to do with Emperor. It's already been decided that current functionality is ok based on the classlead that was proposed and approved. It's fine to feel like that wasn't enough, but your opinion is clearly not shared by those who handle combat balance at this time.
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
Why am I consistently the only one being calm? While I make consistently well-justified remarks and comments, this entire thread has been nothing but "You're stupid", "nu uhhs",and "you're obviously just angry" remarks. (Oh, forgot @Jarrod's "neener neener just reminding you that somehow I'm in the ACC and you aren't" remark)
Please feel free to weigh in with some actual responses to the OP.
And yes, I'm asking for some changes that would immensely change group combat, because I (and many others) believe that some significant changes would dramatically improve the fun and "balance" of combat in general.
As a very experienced combat (although of course my 10,000+ kills/deaths/duels pales in comparison to @Bluef's 151) I would also state that several of these abilities are serious problems in 1v1. So far I haven't seen many people "abuse" raido in 1v1, but that doesn't mean that it can't be. However, pathfinder, Uni, and puppet travel are staple tactics used by almost everyone who can use them, every time they fight.
Anyone who's ever seen a Vrass/Jinsun/Daje/Omi log would have a hard time justifying their class' need to have the ability to instantly teleport anywhere in the world through every form of hindrance.
Nemutaur posted a classlead calling for specifically some of the changes you proposed, with the change you were seeking as a potential solution. It was approved with a different solution. This is a clear indication that while you think Solution 1 was necessary, the person responsible for combat balance (Tecton) did not. Please stop reading into things that aren't there and look at what is actually in front of you.
Most of those must be deaths, because you're barely 1/4th there in kills (combined).
Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."
I also think Ernam's tone is incredibly obnoxious and not very constructive (even if the content is), which is swiftly becoming a recurring theme.
That said, I actually agree with him on most of this. I'm not experienced enough or good enough at 1v1 to comment on that, but I've been in plenty of raids in this game and fast-travel is a tremendously huge part of virtually all of them. It's boring. Do the fast-travel abilities technically have counters? Sure, some of them do. But you can't realistically counter every person in an entire group - and only one of them needs to throw Universe to get the entire group instantly to safety. Right now, there is very, very little risk involved when an invading force holes up in the middle of a hostile city because it's just as easy to get away from the very centre of a city as from the gates. Likewise, reinforcements can appear instantly. If someone dies, they can often be back with the group mere seconds after coming back to life, which contributes to boring raid stalemates too.
Fast-travel has played an awkwardly large part in raiding as long as I've played Achaea. And I think people, and the admin, are actually more or less aware that it is in fact a problem, which is why we've seen things like the changes to earrings and the addition of Orb of Confinement in the first place. Those changes just didn't go far enough to actually solve the problem.
My personal preference would be to see an ability either in a neutral class or in a city improvement that would completely shut down all fast travel in and out of the city for enemies and citizens alike - basically a fast-travel version of alchemist DISRUPT. Hell, maybe even give it to alchemists - it fits with their theme of being city-bound and with DISRUPT and DISPLACE. So that it doesn't get used willy-nilly, perhaps have it require more than one person like cataclysm, though only the alchemist starting it has to be alchemist class.
Having Raido stopped by the highest priority affliction in the game, with a cure that can be not only instantly cured, but pre-cached, is meaningless.
It stops nothing, as evidenced by the fact that every single Ashtan raid since earring nerfs has centered around using Raido to instantly travel in/out of Targossas.
Jarrod, we both know that it's broken, regardless of the result of the classlead. Trying to make arguments based on decisions made in the past instead of (lo and behold) responding to any of the actual valid points I've made here is yet another method of misdirection.
Oh. I clicked "Golden Dais of Creation". No idea why it ended up here. Forum glitch or typo on my part.
I'll try to stop being what you see as "obnoxious", but it's very frustrating when the entire first page of the thread (so far?) is almost nothing but personal beefs and derails.
I guess leading the post with "Please don't derail this or fill it with personal beef" was pretty bad strategy though. Ended up working more like an invitation.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Go scroll back. A number of people have given you reasons for things. You just didn't like them. Someday I think you will need to internalize the fact that sometimes people don't agree with you and that's okay. It doesn't make them bad people. When you respond to them with a reasoned argument, they might still not agree with you. And that too is okay.
To put it in clearer terms, every idea thread you comment in is filled with you "mansplaining" things, though I don't mean to refer to the gender connotations of the word. You come across as extremely condescending, you attack anyone who disagrees with you (even if it's a reasoned response, it is still phrased as an attack - while you seem to think the two are mutually exclusive, they are not), and you universally assume that any time you get the last word (which is always, since people generally say their piece and then give up) this means that you were clearly right.
And then you start playing victim when anyone responds in kind or calls you on it.
Even when I agree with you, I'm tentative about actually voicing it.
Pretty sure I'd rather see twice as many raiders who can't escape a fight instantly.