Would a trans weaponry alchemist specced for con and balance traits work for hunting over alchemy?

Antreus

I nearly have trans avoidance, have trans weaponry with proficiencies in broadswords, bardiche, and flail, as well as alchemy and transmutation transed.

I have Lucky and use Extispicy in Alchemy to increase my crit chance, but I am wondering..

If having access to runes for weaponry/armor would  my weapon attack be on par with my Iron spec currently? Or not even close.. I had the thought because I noticed balance was used for transmutation and physiology. Thought making the switch would make those things better too!

I am finding my lack of health and ability to take hits becoming quite a problem as I venture into areas where taking on groups is normal as I close in on the level of Logosian. I don't know if the small increase in my Iron dps is worth the loss in defense.

Can someone tell me how I'm wrong or if you've done similar testing on these matters?

Achimrst

When I was testing Alchemist a long time ago, I found Constitution increased the bleeding your homounculus did. SO you can use it for combat, not sure if it's the same now though. If I were you I would get a permanent shield tattoo.

Sena

With con-spec, nimble, and trans weaponry, hunting with a rapier would be better than hunting with iron. I don't know exactly how other weapons compare, I only have the damage formula for rapiers.

I'll do the math in a bit to see how that compares with int-spec and quick-witted.

Sena

Iron with int-spec atavian, quick-witted, trans alchemy: ~196 DPS unartied.
Rapier with con-spec atavian, nimble, trans weaponry: ~190 DPS with a Soulpiercer (90 damage, 228 speed). It's possible to get a better bashing rapier than that, but it wouldn't really be worth the cost. Also, the rapier is a lot faster (~2.2s instead of 3.6s), for more consistent crits, less overkill, and easier escaping if you're in trouble, so that should make up for the slightly lower DPS. With a 78 damage 231 speed rapier (not too expensive or hard to find, I think) you'd get ~183 DPS.

Alchemist PvP also uses nimble, so that's another advantage of using weaponry/nimble for bashing.

So without artefacts, you wouldn't really lose much by switching to con-spec and weaponry. Magic attacks can be boosted more by artefacts though (iron can be boosted by diadem, sash, and collar, while weaponry only has gauntlets), so if you can afford those artefacts then it would be better to stick with iron even if you go con-spec and nimble.

This all applies to apostate too, since iron and decay are nearly identical, and apostates also use balance for PvP (though I don't know much about apostate combat, eq might be equally or more important).

Tecton

I wouldn't go rushing to buy weapons to replace your primary class bashing skill if your class does not normally use them. 

Sena

Tecton said:

I wouldn't go rushing to buy weapons to replace your primary class bashing skill if your class does not normally use them. 

Learning weaponry, buying artefacts, or respeccing for only that purpose would be a bad idea (because I'm assuming weaponry PvE damage will be nerfed with the knight/forging changes, if not sooner), but if you already have trans weaponry and respeccing will be useful for other things (an alchemist will want nimble for PvP, for example, and con-spec over int-spec will still be viable even if you have to sacrifice damage for it) or you don't even need to respec (for classes that already use balance/strength for bashing), why not? In that case, it can give huge benefits for only the cost of a weapon, so there's not a huge loss even if the benefits only last for a few days.

Or is this a hint that the changes are coming in the next few hours?

Eld

Antreus said:

P.S. Based on what @Tecton‌ did say I am a bit leering now. I thought Weaponry was a General skill so why would its damage be lessened with the advent of the new weapon and Chivalry changes? Why won't it continue being static as is? I am a weapon-based class now that I have a weaponry is the argument I am trying to make, whether or not it can be employed in PvP effectively. Or is this entirely dependent on whether or not your class is given a weapon proficiency?

Well, weapon stats will be changing, so that would affect the calculations on what's worthwhile, if nothing else. Beyond that, since we know knights are going to be restricted in what weapons they can use depending on their specialisation, and that (iirc) there was a statement about rapiers becoming bard-only, it wouldn't be unreasonable to guess that there might be other restrictions in the cards, as well. 

Sena

I would assume that the intent is for class bashing attacks to be better than the general attacks available to everyone. The fact that weaponry is often better than class skills is presumably unintentional. It's just difficult to fix while weapons have such a wide range of stats (though that isn't necessarily the reason, or the only reason, it hasn't been changed yet).

Similarly, weapon-based classes are very overpowered in PvE right now, and the damage formulae for those weapon attacks will almost certainly be rebalanced when weapon stats are made static, so it would make sense for general weapon attacks to be rebalanced at the same time.

Melodie

If this is also true for apostates, I am going to be particularly sad.

Antreus

@Sena , such clarity and insight. Thank you  I don't plan on buying many artefacts for stat boosting, nor many of this calibre. I was hesitating as I was an atavian and a Con-spec only grants me 11 STR 14 CON 12 INT. I don't know if Jera is different but if it is still 1CON/1STR 12|15 doesn't seem so bad.

Would you advise dropping Lucky in favour of a boost to Constitution (Robust), adding Lucky back in once I hit 80?

I thought that even if I went con spec that iron would do more damage due to the higher int value and transed Alchemy, but it doesn't seem noticeable when coupled with the rate that I crit by adding: lucky+extispicy+level. It doesn't really seem to proffer much for the amount you have to invest outside of traits and specs.

I couldn't figure out if one was best, they both seemed about the same. I like what you said about the quick recovery and the idea of overkill often finding that to be an issue with things that are below "strong and confident"

What other weapons other than rapier could be utilized, what's the fall off point? Which is to say, what are lowest stats that you'd advise on a weapon for a CON spec weaponry build for hunting? Does to-hit become an issues on tougher enemies?

I have bastard and flail learned at the moment, no rapier. Would whip work instead of rapier?

Sena

The numbers I gave are without jera by the way. With jera, the soulpiercer DPS increases to ~204 DPS and the 78/231 is ~195 DPS.

Antreus said:

Would you advise dropping Lucky in favour of a boost to Constitution (Robust), adding Lucky back in once I hit 80?

Yeah, Robust will probably be a lot more useful than Lucky.

Antreus said:

Does DEX affect the speed of weapons at all or the to-hit rating?

Dex only affects your chance to dodge.

Antreus said:

What other weapons other than rapier could be utilized, what's the fall off point? Which is to say, what are lowest stats that you'd advise on a weapon for a CON spec weaponry build for hunting? Does to-hit become an issues on tougher enemies?

I have bastard and flail learned at the moment, no rapier. Would whip work instead of rapier?

Different weapons have different damage formulae, and the only one I know for certain is rapier, so I'm not sure how other weapons compare or what stats you should look for. I can give a couple very rough comparisons though:
Level 3 broadswords have about 182 DPS at 12 str. So they're worse than rapiers, but still decent enough if you can find one with close to L3 stats.
A 125 damage 178 speed flail has ~195 DPS at 12 str. That's pretty good (about the same as the 78/231 rapier, though not as fast), but I'm not sure how common those stats are.

To-hit is important against high-level enemies. A decent rapier should have plenty of to-hit, but less accurate weapons could have problems. I'm not sure exactly how much you'll need.

Daslin

Okay, now that that's settled. @Tecton bb, knight changes, pls?
I will cuddle you so damn hard while you form the terra.

Antreus

Sena said:

Tecton said:

I wouldn't go rushing to buy weapons to replace your primary class bashing skill if your class does not normally use them. 

Learning weaponry, buying artefacts, or respeccing for only that purpose would be a bad idea (because I'm assuming weaponry PvE damage will be nerfed with the knight/forging changes, if not sooner), but if you already have trans weaponry and respeccing will be useful for other things (an alchemist will want nimble for PvP, for example, and con-spec over int-spec will still be viable even if you have to sacrifice damage for it) or you don't even need to respec (for classes that already use balance/strength for bashing), why not? In that case, it can give huge benefits for only the cost of a weapon, so there's not a huge loss even if the benefits only last for a few days.

Or is this a hint that the changes are coming in the next few hours?

Learning weaponry for me was mostly due to being a Sylvan. I originally trained weaponry because the class at the time lacked a finisher and we were able to envenom our thornrend. I would also find out through this process that polearms don't decapitate! That aside, if I'm already going CON spec for more staying power, and I am taking nimble for its applications in two skill sets (although, I speculate on what the alchemists 3rd skill will be that could potentially use equilibrium, yikes).

I don't believe this is out on a limb too much. Unless of course alchemists end up utilizing more equilibrium after Transmutation gets cleaved from their core. Hopefully the new skill set is a bit of a hybrid so you don't lose out on too much by being balance/con focused!

I am with @Tecton‌ in regards to going out and buying an artefact weapon, but I also like the fact that Weaponry is seeing widespread use as a PvE tool. Would love to see this become more in vogue and improved upon as we see the changes to Knights come to the fore with the implied changes of weapons across the board.

@Sena did give good examples and insight on how you don't need an artefact rapier to pull off this PvE stratagem, but that a flail within a 125/ ?/ 178 spread still has respectable DPS with only 12 STR before Jera.

When you think about it in this way, my take away 'tis that this be a most sensible of the two options when hunting, while still having good offensive in PvP by supplementing with Weaponry. The cost in credits to improve an equilibrium/intelligence based attack are quite high without any added defensive throughput for doing so. It is definitely a long term investment that pays off only after you become a dragon (it seems), but diminishes your PvP effectiveness a bit until then (in theory).

I'm an amateur so that's my take-away, thanks everyone.

P.S. Based on what @Tecton‌ did say I am a bit leering now. I thought Weaponry was a General skill so why would its damage be lessened with the advent of the new weapon and Chivalry changes? Why won't it continue being static as is? I am a weapon-based class now that I have a weaponry is the argument I am trying to make, whether or not it can be employed in PvP effectively. Or is this entirely dependent on whether or not your class is given a weapon proficiency?

Addama

Yeah, I remember reading that Rapiers weren't going to be of use for Knights after the changes.

Antreus

I know this is paper thin, but imagine being an Apostate, then becoming an infernal and your decay damage is better than your Chivalry and Weaponry being low due to spec and traits?

In my case, I have skill to use weapons as a relic of past character choices which is at the same level of alchemy,  and I trait and spec to increase balance recovery and constitution. I am just worried as I hope the changes to Knight weapon specializations don't dampen the effectiveness for those that prefer balance based attacks for PvE over equilibrium ones due to their PvP offense being based on balance.

There's some cross-over and usability because the affliction-based classes I played previously before Alchemist (Shaman) utilized balance too. 

Assuming all these things static: You're transed in all your core skills, you haven't changed class recently after embracing, you don't have transed weaponry, and you have no reincarnations or talent resets - picking up weaponry doesn't make sense.

But for those that find themselves in the middle and do have transed weaponry it just becomes a defining point of their character, as vestigial as it is, should still help them progress in the game PvE-wise. I just don't see why Weaponry is a general skill if they don't wish it to be at least a baseline, equivalent, or substitution due to past character choices. It should seek to fill in the gapes and compromising situations that befall their choices or embolden them based on trait and spec choices in response to their classes kill strategies and overall character stratagem.

Antreus

I am definitely seeing a general preference for players who have average strength to choose weapons with speed/to-hit > damage/hit > hit/damage, scaling based upon their proficiency and skill in Weaponry.

@Sena suggested earlier in response to my question about flail vs rapier. I am basing this on the impression that the flail is similar to a shortsword and that shortswords are typically considered a newbie, all-purpose weapon, because it implies you either have low Chivalry or low Weaponry.

The baseline stats listed on artefacts offensive don't paint flails in a very good light at all.  I think these stats are a bit lower than they ought to be, just based on what I've seen from flail forges, but they might as well be accurate. They more speed and damage than a shortsword, and as such, a good weapon proficiency 1her for those who have the talent/spec/weaponry skills to utilize it, despite weapons not being apart of their core class skills.

Caladbolg

Antreus said:

I know this is paper thin, but imagine being an Apostate, then becoming an infernal and your decay damage is better than your Chivalry and Weaponry being low due to spec and traits?

In my case, I have skill to use weapons as a relic of past character choices which is at the same level of alchemy,  and I trait and spec to increase balance recovery and constitution. I am just worried as I hope the changes to Knight weapon specializations don't dampen the effectiveness for those that prefer balance based attacks for PvE over equilibrium ones due to their PvP offense being based on balance.

There's some cross-over and usability because the affliction-based classes I played previously before Alchemist (Shaman) utilized balance too. 

Assuming all these things static: You're transed in all your core skills, you haven't changed class recently after embracing, you don't have transed weaponry, and you have no reincarnations or talent resets - picking up weaponry doesn't make sense.

But for those that find themselves in the middle and do have transed weaponry it just becomes a defining point of their character, as vestigial as it is, should still help them progress in the game PvE-wise. I just don't see why Weaponry is a general skill if they don't wish it to be at least a baseline, equivalent, or substitution due to past character choices. It should seek to fill in the gapes and compromising situations that befall their choices or embolden them based on trait and spec choices in response to their classes kill strategies and overall character stratagem.

Does everyone remember the days of Grook Decay double tower shield bashing? I do!