Dormant Gods with Active Orders: where's our help line?

Antreus

Imperian I hear has a system for organization requests which seems to work rather well, but I don't see any such equivalent in this IRE game.

A lot of things - simple in nature - cannot occur because a Patron isn't around, which puts pressure on the active Order whenever they want to do something exemplary on behalf of the Order, pursuant of heir modus operandi. There isn't a system in place that deftly employs credits, gold, or essence that makes these sorts of requests possible or permitted in presently deployed systems like crafting. 

We cannot use themes associated with our Patron in our crafted designs: they are rejected. Nor do we have a means to prove our connection with the Order we are making them, in order to make it permissible to draft them in the first place. There is no mechanism to apply for stationary or ply the Order's heraldric arms on signets, even if the Order commissioned them for this purpose and are used by high rank members.

Some Divine Orders have specific rites, rituals, or procedures that require certain items upon induction: these cannot be granted nor requested if the Patron is dormant, but are necessary for them to partake in the Order instead of just taking up space.

I understand the arguments against organization seals and a limit on order specific items, but I think there are plenty of arguments for them and ways to circumvent any abuse - namely, having to be of a certain rank to use such instruments, and creating a fee for their construction as well as providing a gold sink outside of player's pockets.

I think Orders should be taken seriously in this regard: who patrons the dormant Order? Does the House with a Patron do better than the one who does not, despite equal membership and influence?

Orders in my personal experience are one of the last player retention organizations that characters cling to before they peace out. They can be a very defining part of a character and when all else fails, are the thing that keeps them engaged in the game. Why not take them a bit more seriously for what they can contribute to the RP experience of Achaea?

Kresslack

A lot of Orders, and organizations in general if they are prominent enough, usually have a denizen through which such requests are filtered through. For instance, to make requests to Sartan, one usually goes through Scyline (don't quote me on the spelling). Babel has someone in the Conclave of Ashtan, so on and so forth. Usually if you deliver them a letter with your request via the messenger in Delos, it'll get attention. Part of the theological principles of divinity is that prayers and offerings need be made; a deity is only as strong as the number of followers it has. Make enough offerings and enough requests, and you're bound to get someone's attention.

I think they realized dormant divine were becoming and issue and used the Bal'met event to sort of cull the Garden which seemed to be growing rather overcrowded with dormant divine.

On the other hand, you could use it as an opportunity for a bit of spinoff roleplay. Your god isn't answering your prayers, and for all intensive purposes seems to have left the Order in mortal hands. Use Flair as an example on how to make the most of an unfortunate situation such as this.

Antreus

Let me get a bit more information from you @Kresslack‌ as I have never heard of the Messenger in Delos. I have heard of speaking to denizens loyal to a particular god that are under Their care, which I often sometimes do to no effect.

Where is the messenger, never heard of giving letters to denizens.

I am not so sure you can kill death, but Twilight sure has tried.

Kresslack

Should be on the bridge just outside of Delos. Hand them a letter, and they'll ask who to deliver it to. They'll get it to them...for a fee.

Kerria

nvm user error

Antreus

Kresslack said:

On the other hand, you could use it as an opportunity for a bit of spinoff roleplay. Your god isn't answering your prayers, and for all intensive purposes seems to have left the Order in mortal hands. Use Flair as an example on how to make the most of an unfortunate situation such as this.

Hi Kresslack,

I took this to heart in some way, because it reminded me of the old days when I did just that. I lead the Disciples of Death for some 35 years, but in that time, while I reached the minds of many Achaeas I failed to understand how things operate or how to get the Gardens attention.

Thoth was Awakened, not by the Disciples that fervently sought him out with focused attention and meditation on his Realm, but by those who wanted the power and prestige of his realm. True story. It actually took me a long time to realize this, that I had been had. You hear that power corrupts, and perfect power absolutely or something like that. I only now know what that really means: a lot of people I have see in Achaea who gain power and prestige - their characters become possessed - like they aren't roleplaying anymore. All I knew was that somehow I felt betrayed, but I didn't know if it was my naivety as a player or the people who betrayed Antreus' good faith, humility, and devoutness.

While it works for some and they are successful, sometimes it fails miserably, despite one's best efforts.

But, hindsight is hindsight. I'm trying to find my inner Antreus again, applying everything I've learned, and relive that wonderlust, anything is possible point in my character's life that I think he deserves. But, I also believe the world of Achaea has changed, and I am trying to mete my idealism with the reality of the situation my character finds himself in, while also uses these forums as an outlet to garner the attention that I think these game issues deserve.

What was fringe is no longer apart of the rug, and what was on the edge of the carpet is now its fringed tassels, easily swept under the rug and forgotten. That's why I'm broaching this topic as if it wasn't meant to live.

Antreus

@Kresslack‌

Message #1005 Sent by Meletus

11/12/2:40 Greetings! In regard to issue 70698, unfortunately, we do not

interfere in the affairs of dormant Divine. Sorry!

Kerria

Seems really sad that they don't at least allow a liaison or something of the sort. At least make it worth while to keep a order active.

Bluef

It's an age-old problem in Achaea, really. But with good allies and some creativity you can still get a lot accomplished on behalf of your organization, @Antreus. As someone already pointed out, @Flair is a great example of this. But I also know for a fact that other divine were assisting him with his ventures from time to time when Babel wasn't awake so perhaps cultivating some kind of working relationship with Rp@achaea.com or Events@achaea.com is in order.

I know it is extremely frustrating, and like you I wish there was some consideration given to the players who have made investments of time (and money) to factionalize themselves with a particular Order, even if the divine is dormant, but sadly I don't think it is high on the Garden's priority list at the moment. I suppose the bright side is that we still have divine to RP about, unlike those who had their Orders suddenly destroyed during the Bal'met event.

Aerek

Too many dormant orders, too much lore/history/precedent in those orders that Admins would have to be aware of and respect, impossible to know the former God's last will and testament, and too much risk of politics and power plays by players once they realize their god has gone dormant. While I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of dormant orders' RP and operation, Admins would be stepping into a veritable minefield every time they so much as heard a request from a dormant order.

Players might complain when their order's dead and nothing can be done about it, but they'd straight up revolt if an Admin came in and made the "wrong" move.

Kresslack

Antreus said:

@Kresslack‌

Message #1005 Sent by Meletus

11/12/2:40 Greetings! In regard to issue 70698, unfortunately, we do not

interfere in the affairs of dormant Divine. Sorry!

That's from an administration angle. Based on what I've seen of Achaea, if a divine is needed around, they find one way or another to make it happen. That doesn't mean there won't be dry spells, however.

Antreus

Aerek said:

Too many dormant orders, too much lore/history/precedent in those orders that Admins would have to be aware of and respect, impossible to know the former God's last will and testament, and too much risk of politics and power plays by players once they realize their god has gone dormant. While I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of dormant orders' RP and operation, Admins would be stepping into a veritable minefield every time they so much as heard a request from a dormant order.

Players might complain when their order's dead and nothing can be done about it, but they'd straight up revolt if an Admin came in and made the "wrong" move.

I still think there's room for compromise.

Antreus

Is there an unspoken format with how to use Rp@achaea.com or events@achaae.com? It's not exactly the IDEA <insert> request.

Bluef

Events@achaea.com Guidelines

This is an automatic response to an email you recently sent to events@achaea.com or rp@achaea.com.

If you sent a request for help with an rp event in Achaea, it will be evaluated based on the following rules, if there is sufficient time. You may be contacted if your event concept is approved and there is someone willing to assist with it. If your concept is not approved, or there is no one with available time to spend on assisting you with carrying it out, there will be no response. If your original request does not comply with the below rules, you may send ONE second draft; any other drafts will not be read.

1. Nothing that contradicts your roleplaying history, or is completely inconsistent with what your character might naturally do. If you're a monk who spends all your time in the arena sparring and worships Aegis, why should we help you construct some elaborate magic ritual to contact Deucalion?

2. The concept must be completely and clearly written out, beginning to end, unless the nature of the scenario is that you want it left open-ended for a good reason. Include a script if appropriate. Double check spelling and grammar.

2. Nothing for an organisation that you're not in. If you're a Dawnstrider, I'm sure you think that having an event where all the Mhaldor guards get sucked into some black hole would be cool, but don't request it.

3. Nothing for an organisation with a currently active patron. You should talk to your patron instead for help.

4. Nothing that is supposed to gain you or others any tangible benefit, like gold or items, or some advantage in the event, like important clues. You can request small, temporary items for the duration of the scenario, if appropriate and kept to a minimum.

5. Must involve more than one person, the more the merrier. The others do not necessarily need to be clued in about the pre-arrangement. We will not spend time constructing a scenario just for one person. (We actually do get asked to do this!)

6. Must spotlight you as little as possible. No drama queens! If your requested scenario is simply an attention-getting device for you to feel special, we won't be very interested.

7. Must be doable in under an hour at the very max. The less time the better, please! We have a LOT keeping us busy!

8. Must require as little of the admins as possible.

9. Must be tasteful and mature.

10. Generally must not involve anything on a large scale, or the intervention or appearance of a God, unless there's a very very good reason.

Valaria

my favorite event so far as of recent is the Bloody Bride.

Melodie

Aww. That's like the nicest compliment ever.

Thank you. ^_^

Deucalion

This is not an official answer from the administration (edit: see Sarapis' endorsement below). The short version of why we tend to not do this is because an arbitrary god is not going to know the details about another arbitrary god, and therefore not be able to adequately create an RP situation that is not going to cause canon issues. Suppose you're in Prospero's order and he's dormant but you want to do an event that has to do with his temple or your order item or something. I know nothing about what kinds of things Prospero would or wouldn't allow, nor would I really be willing to take your word on it. Further, it's not my place to create new canon for a god that I haven't committed to. 

The RP (RP@achaea.com) and the Events (events@achaea.com) email are possible avenues to pursue for minor things. "I want to customize my artefact to have prospero's seal on it and I'm in his order and I want to pour molten gold over it and then have the seal appear" is more general RP that just happens to include Prospero's name, but even that might be declined. 

We want our players to be in active orders with active gods and active ordermates when possible. And, to be honest, we all have enough stuff we're trying to get done for our own orgs without trying to do things for other orgs that we potentially know nothing about. 

Antreus

@Deucalion‌ thanks for the sobering response.

Sarapis

I endorse Deuc's statement. He's correct.

Deucalion

Antreus said:

@Deucalion‌ thanks for the sobering response.

Sure thing. As a mortal, I was in a dormant order for quite a long time, and I understand the frustration. My best advice is to do your own RP as much as you can, and decide if it matters more for your character to stay true to their god, or for you the player to be happy. In my opinion, the latter is more important. 

Most gods that know they are leaving will "release you from your vows" so you don't have any IC guilt over leaving for another order, and with the exception of maybe Sartan or the Targossas gods (just by the nature of their alignments and teachings), I think it would be entirely reasonable to just make up RP saying that the god told you you were released and free to join a different order. And then even with Targossas, it would be reasonable to go to the other bloodsworn god. 

We appreciate when you stay true to your characters' vows and story, but we also want you to do what makes you happy as a player. 

Mannimar

I know this isn't about orders, but some gods may help you if you approach them ICly with a reasonable request. I know Scarlatti and Phaestus were great about that for me one time. Helped me create a special cloak. Of course you should know a bit about the gods and their roles if you're going to approach them that way.

Mazzington

It's particular frustrating in the Order of Artemis, where not only is She dormant but so is our appointed leader, @Penwize‌. It ties our hands in a lot of ways, especially since we have no way of appointing a new leader, and since I somehow never got assigned some privileges despite being a full member. 

Herenicus

Mazzington said:

It's particular frustrating in the Order of Artemis, where not only is She dormant but so is our appointed leader, @Penwize‌. It ties our hands in a lot of ways, especially since we have no way of appointing a new leader, and since I somehow never got assigned some privileges despite being a full member. 

Mhaldor went through a fun interregnum when @Sartan and @Khoraji, then Tyrannus, were simultaneously dormant. Without a means of replacing leadership, we had rogue Sartai flirting with a democratic revolt. Exciting times!

Achimrst

Am I the only one who had this experience in a house?

Shirszae

Achimrst said:

Am I the only one who had this experience in a house?

Definitely not.

Antreus

Mazzington said:

It's particular frustrating in the Order of Artemis, where not only is She dormant but so is our appointed leader, @Penwize‌. It ties our hands in a lot of ways, especially since we have no way of appointing a new leader, and since I somehow never got assigned some privileges despite being a full member. 

This is a huge wrench in the gears for Orders, and practically no solution. It's the same way that you lose Family clans that aren't set to democratic.

Valnurana

I just wanted to jump in here with a simple example of something an order with an inactive patron could accomplish that requires some divine assistance, but still conforms to the "doesn't involve an appearance of a god" rule in the above guidelines and is not going to cause problems like Deucalion mentioned.

Say Babel's order wants to commemorate the 500th anniversary of his presence in the modern age; they've planned a ceremony (all of which can be done by players) but would like some area-wide or game-wide emotes to supplement things. Something like this would be doable: "The skies over Sapience dim, and a chorus of chanting voices rises in reverence to Lord Babel." Something like this would not: "A chorus of chanting voices rises in reverence to the God of Chaos, and the visage of Lord Babel briefly appears in the firmament, looking down with approval upon His devoted."

So while you are very limited to what can be done, and you may have to tone things down significantly from your original idea, with some creativity and compromise it is still possible to arrange something flashy even if you don't have an active order patron.

Antreus

Thanks @Valnurana - you've really helped the Dreamer in me. This is one such example that grants wings!

Kakotas

I mean coming from a Highly inactive order divine wise... Even when @Pentharian‌ was gone for long periods of time the hand had access to things. Usually we kept them stored away so when he knew he was leaving for a while we would plan ahead and grab some extra ones or we would store them with an NPC.

Zii

This brings back memories of Apollyon's order, and Kelandra being the ONLY person able to raise for a time.

Good times.

Kakotas

Pentharians it was down to Osis for almost 50 years during a shrine war with Aegis. Then we went through a phase where I was the only one able to raise. Pretty much stayed stable at 1-4 able to raise at any given point.