Healing Mounts

Ernam

Being an owner of 3 collared mounts, and likely dozens of others, I have become acutely aware of how useless non-invincible artie pets (1250cr) can be, due to the fact that they are so easily killed, and take so damn long to respawn.

Just to throw some numbers out there, the mount with the highest HP takes the following amount of damage/HP to kill.  It should be noted that most mounts have either less, or significantly less HP. (the ranges provided are unartied/artied)

Smite: 14-18% (~10-13 seconds to kill).
Gut/Incantation 16-20% (~15 seconds to kill).
DSL up to approx 20-25% (~8-10 seconds to kill, dodging excluded (not an issue with artie weapons))
[Haven't tested with Jhui or equivalent arties)

There's also the issue of mounts being caught outside your room, in which case they're basically toast, rendering your 250cr pet and 291cr Riding ability essentially gone, with no way to get it back for 18 hours.  (lets rule out the practice of carrying around 50 mules in your inventory, for a slew of reasons).

Also, mounts can essentially be "slow prepped" but damaging them/running, preventing the only counter to mount bashing (10-ish seconds of getting attacked by the mounts owner)
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On the one hand, the primary reason for their low HP and damage mitigation (none?) is for combat balance purposes, however that logic is somewhat moot considering that invincible pet mounts exist (the only "balancing" feature of them is that they cost a fortune).

The following solutions are a few ideas, any of which I think would help close the massive practicality / balance issue between artefact and non-artefact mounts.

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1)  Implement some way of healing mounts, that uses balance.  Perhaps a crafted item that can be fed/applied to a mount that heals it by perhaps 10-15% health, at a 3 second balance cost to use.  This would not out-heal any class' ability to DPS them out, but would create the ability to flee and slowly heal your mount up in order to prevent its otherwise entirely unpreventable death.

2)  Implement a level 2 collar, or separate collar-like artefact that can be attached to mounts, that increases their max health / rate of healing, significantly.

3)  Implement forged and/or artefact mount armor, that can provide fixed % damage mitigation for mounts.  Higher levels for higher mount types.

4)  Implement a (Lupus-related?) denizen that can be used to resummon collared mounts, outside of combat, for a cost.  Wouldn't help in the arena, or during combat, so not the best solution.

5)  Add an ability to Riding that allows users to increase a mount's health, hps, or mitigation for a fixed period of time, or perhaps with a significant endurance or WP drain.

6)  A rune, or other such temporary buff, that can be cast on mounts to temporarily boost their mitigation or max health.


Probably several other ways to address this as well.  Open to thoughts - will submit classlead based on feedback.

(Please note that combat balance was taken into consideration for these ideas, with an emphasis on keeping artie pets 'better' than anything else.  The goal is to create a way to use mounts without having to simply accept the fact that they're going to die in the first 10 seconds of every fight, completely removing your ability to use an entire Skillset and very expensive pet).

Discuss!

Ernam

PLEASE read fully and respond rationally if you're going to submit feedback of a negative/disapproving nature.  Open to mature discussion only please.

Caladbolg

Would suggest that mounts respawn faster than they currently do.

or update the stable system to work like falcon sanctuary but for mounts.

I mean honestly killing mounts does nothing for the person killing it besides
A. Being a Dick
B. Being a Dick
C. Combat situations make killing mounts a much more viable method of dealing with someone than fighting someone who is mounted.

Pretty much I really like my idea of the stable system thing. Like above the only time killing a mount is viable is in a combat situation or just being a dick.

Now with the theory that a stable system works like falcon sanctuary the mount could run back to sanctuary at certain health percentages.  instead of just out right dying. now on the other hand anyway you could think to abuse this can be counted as dropping a mule.

Ernam

Yeah but with your stable system, the only counter to someone attacking your mount right off the bat would be to send it to stable immediately.  All you've accomplished is saving its life, at the expense of not being able to use it.

For combat purposes, you'd be killing it for them, and faster...

Mounts respawning faster also doesn't provide any method for actually slowing/preventing their death, in combat. Now you'd be screwed 10 seconds into a fight every 9 hours, instead of every 18 hours (or whatever), if you catch my drift.

Amarillys

A riding skill called BARDING that functions like a shield tattoo, but for your mount. The rider can move just fine without breaking it, but any movement from the mount (pretty much any skill in riding and changing rooms) causes the shield to pop. Can be popped with raze/hammer/so forth so it can still be killed, but they have to -want- it and not just think, hey, might as well, right?

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

Yeah but with your stable system, the only counter to someone attacking your mount right off the bat would be to send it to stable immediately.  All you've accomplished is saving its life, at the expense of not being able to use it.

For combat purposes, you'd be killing it for them, and faster...

Mounts respawning faster also doesn't provide any method for actually slowing/preventing their death, in combat. Now you'd be screwed 10 seconds into a fight every 9 hours, instead of every 18 hours (or whatever), if you catch my drift.

This is true but the way I look at it, is an artie mount's main ability is immortal status. 

I don't personally think that IRE Is going to allow something of the same level as an artifact mount on a normal mount. Like sip rings, flying rings,Wings, Lyre's, transing skills in general the ability is already there you just have to pay for it.

Would be pretty cool if they just added in a level 2 collar that made the mount immortal. then people (like me) Who wanted to get an artie pet (so it can't be killed) but know I'll just end up going back to blademaster and not wanting to spend that many credits on something I can't trade in.If the level 2 collar was at a lower rate than the artifact pet. would likely spur this into a different direction all together.

For the record, im not disagreeing with you what so ever. Mounts die to fast vs people who kill them the idea with the stable thing was based around your mount stays dead way to much for a 250 credit investment I think that could use a speed up.
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tldr Version: They are not likely going to be willing to buff something that already has a fix with a credit price. so instead suggested a lower priced level 2 collar that gives the immortal effect. )

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Also for the record. I think it would be cooler if the way artifact mounts were changed so that you could for buy artifacts that had the special abilities of some of the artifact abilities which would let you keep upgrading your non artifact mount into an artifact mount.

I'm not sure if people actually use artifact mounts for roleplaying honestly though. I've mostly just seem them used for the amazing abilities they have.

Ernam

The core concept of all of my suggestions was to make non-artie pets viable for combat while still significantly less "good" than artefact pets (which can't be killed, at all, ever).

That's why I didn't suggest anything that actually makes non-artie pets invulnerable, or suggest ways to resummon them in combat, etc.

Arador

I agree fully that the reset time is too long. I would love to see it shortened.

What I would like to see as well is an upgrade path from collared pets to artefact pets. Then I could justify buying a collared pet, as it is a route to a better pet. Now though it is is just a dead end and a waste in the long run. 

Ernam

@Arador - that is a really great idea too!

Austere

Badge of returning!  I think that is the name of the shop of wonders thing to half respawn time.  Either way,  I got one for free and used it on my mount. Stackable too

Ernam

Faster respawn times do not in any way make mounts last longer in combat, or address bashing of mounts in any way.

Even if respawn times were changed from 18 hours to 20 minutes, it wouldn't make them viable for anything other than roleplay.

Arador

Yeah the badge helps but does not lead to a proper solution in the long run. I would not mind my pet dying and resetting later if I see it as an entry level into the pet market. It is cheaper and I get some advantage from it until I can afford upgrade it, until then it still has drawbacks but it is not going to be money down the drain when I want to go for a full pet. 

Ernam

Riding already has a barrier for entry level use, the 1750 lessons / 291 credits required to learn it.

A 291 credit ability with a 250 credit artefact attached to a 135,000gp mount shouldn't die in 10 seconds, with no way to slow or prevent its death, and be completely eliminated for any period longer than something like Kaido Banish provides.

Mounts are not that big of a deal in combat anyways - they have more than ample counters for all classes, which are balanced around the existence of invincible pets, as is.  More mount durability will not be a "buff" to Riding in any way, combat potential-wise, it would simply lessen the (massive) gap between collared pets and artefact pets.

Kresslack

They introduced the Badge of Returning to shorten the return time of collared mounts significantly. I put one on my stallion and it works great. However, I'm not sure if they still offer these.

I would like to see stables in places, not just cities, actually be used. I haven't taken a significant look at the Stables system currently, so I can't say for sure how it works (never really having used it myself). Ideally it would allow people to stable their mounts to ensure they are fed and looked after while their owner is away. 

Maybe this is already the case, and it's simply a matter of inconvenience of having to walk to the actual city stables. The only alternative I have to this would increasing the number of stables available in the world, if necessary. I say if necessary because I know a lot of villages and towns have them; not just cities.

Additionally, a stablehand could be stationed inside the gates of each major city, with the option to allow people to stable their mounts via proxy upon entering the city. Gold could be exchanged at the point of stabling, or instructions can be given to have funds withdrawn directly from the owner's account as needed.

Ernam

Lets just leave out discussion of respawn times / stables, although it's a good idea for a classlead or IDEA.

It doesn't address the issue that the mounts die in a few seconds in combat, at all.

To put things in perspective, I'll point out that I, like almost any intelligent fighter fighting someone using a non-artefact pet, immediately kill mounts at the beginning of fights.  It's the only logical thing to do, since it only takes a few seconds, can't be stopped, and completely eliminates an an entire skillset and several key defensive/offensive strategy options for your opponent.

Kresslack

If you're relying on a skillset outside those of your class to determine the outcome of a fight, losing a mount two minutes in might not be the biggest thing needing evaluation. Nobody needs a mount in a fight, although they do offer quite a few perks. Some classes have access to those skills regardless (leap, waterwalk, dash, block, gust). If the context is strictly combat related, I don't see a need to change how quickly mounts respawn, especially if Badges of Returning are still offered (not sure if they are, haven't checked yet). In my opinion, mounts are more an aesthetic element than they are a tool.

Ernam

Actually, mounts are required to counter several tactics, and they are a vital part of hindrance, and provide trample to a few classes that need them, as well as very helpful dodging/damage reduction, while providing Flying and Mountjump to many classes with no other form of mobility (outside of Greaves).

Also, not sure where you're getting "two minutes" - I provided hard numbers that I personally tested that show mounts die to 5-7 standard bashing attacks, as fast as 8-15 seconds depending on class and arties.

If mounts are meant to be aesthetic and not combat tools, then they shouldn't be able to be invincible*, which forces them into the realm of combat balance.  As far as combat balance is concerned, all pets should be assumed to be invincible.  The only difference between artie and non-artie is price.

* I'm not suggesting removing invincibility - I think invincible pets are currently well balanced as they are.  I'm simply arguing that 1250cr mounts shouldn't be the only mounts worth owning.

Kresslack

I said two minutes as just a generalization, because not everyone literally kills a mount the very first thing when a fight happens. I personally don't even bother with trying to kill them; I work around them because they're always there and most people tend to have more than one.

The fact that some are invincible, whether via Collar or Pet Package, is exactly -why- they're aesthetic. Again, just my opinion. People like to ride around on things that look nice.

I would say if you're serious in using it as a combat tool, invest in a pet package (and you can add amnesia and it will never die). If you just want something that looks great to ride around on, invest in a Collar.

Arador

Kresslack said:

If you're relying on a skill sei t outside those of your class to determine the outcome of a fight, losing a mount two minutes in might not be the biggest thing needing evaluation. Nobody needs a mount in a fight, although they do offer quite a few perks. Some classes have access to those skills regardless (leap, waterwalk, dash, block, gust). If the context is strictly combat related, I don't see a need to change how quickly mounts respawn, especially if Badges of Returning are still offered (not sure if they are, haven't checked yet). In my opinion, mounts are more an aesthetic element than they are a tool.

Better wipe off those tattoos too then. You do not technically need them but they do help a lot. 

Kresslack

Arador said:

Kresslack said:

If you're relying on a skill sei t outside those of your class to determine the outcome of a fight, losing a mount two minutes in might not be the biggest thing needing evaluation. Nobody needs a mount in a fight, although they do offer quite a few perks. Some classes have access to those skills regardless (leap, waterwalk, dash, block, gust). If the context is strictly combat related, I don't see a need to change how quickly mounts respawn, especially if Badges of Returning are still offered (not sure if they are, haven't checked yet). In my opinion, mounts are more an aesthetic element than they are a tool.

Better wipe off those tattoos too then. You do not technically need them but they do help a lot. 

Trying to make orange juice out of apples is a futile effort.

Ernam

The Riding skillset has exactly two "aesthetic" abilities (jousting and lasso), and 14 combat abilities.  Pets can also easily be kept alive without 250cr artefacts designed purely to respawn pets that die in combat.

Riding mounts can be interesting for RP, but so can wielding longswords.  That doesn't make them irrelevant to combat balance.

A 550cr investment into Riding shouldn't be "aesthetic" without another 1250cr upgrade to make it invincible.  It's justifiable to make invincible pets better, but shouldn't be exclusive as the only thing worth using.

Kresslack

I never said they were irrelevant as a combat mechanic, simply that I see them more as an aesthetic element than a combat one. Out of 28 skills in Riding, only about 8 are actually directly relative to anything to do with combat (Calming, Defence, Intimidate, Ram, Mountjump, Blocking, Mountkick, Trample), 9 if you include Flying. The rest? Purely convenience factor for having an investment in that skillset, allowing you to do more while mounted and ride more impressive looking mounts. So, because of that, and my opinion on mounts in general, I think the most practical solution is just bring back the Badge of Returning, which halves the respawn time.

Ernam

Return time isn't a "solution".  It has nothing to do with keeping mounts from dying.  Like I said earlier, feel free to pursue that idea via an IDEA or classlead, but it has nothing to do with this discussion.

Kresslack

Being an owner of 3 collared mounts, and likely dozens of others, I have become acutely aware of how useless non-invincible artie pets (1250cr) can be, due to the fact that they are so easily killed, and take so damn long to respawn.

There's also the issue of mounts being caught outside your room, in which case they're basically toast, rendering your 250cr pet and 291cr Riding ability essentially gone, with no way to get it back for 18 hours. 

Maybe you shouldn't have opened up with those points, then. Your suggestion(s) seem to resolve on making mounts harder to kill so you don't have to wait for them to respawn and use. I just don't see the need for that sort of change towards moving non-invincible mounts and invincible mounts more towards a medium. That's -why- you pay for the  advantage of invincible aspect.

You're basically wanting the same sort of thing for a non-invincible mount, without having to pay for the perk. I get what you're saying about cutting down on the number of mounts someone carries around, but that's their option opposed to simply getting an invincible mount. It's a conscious choice on their part to lead around fifty donkeys, and it's certainly a viable option for someone to just blow right through them as you drop them, since it obviously takes so little time to kill them.

My point is simply this: Knight classes get one one ability in their skillset of Chivalry that has anything to do with mounts, at the end of the skillset: Swiftmount. You get a similar ability a little half way into Riding: Vault. That effectively communicates that while using the Riding skillset certainly does have combat capabilities, a fight shouldn't revolve around whether or not someone has a mount. 

That was one of the most frustrating things when Blademaster first came out, was fighting mounted opponents, and the reason why they added the Feet ability in Striking.

I suppose you can consider that my full contribution to this discussion.

Ernam

I'll reiterate, that since invincible mounts exist, mounts should be assumed to be invincible regarding combat balance.  If knight or BM or anything else has a problem with mounts, those are class problems, not problems with the existence of mounts.  As you mentioned, they've already added an ability that almost entirely eliminates mounts for blademasters, as well as buffed various attack accuracies to help in this.  I'm also pushing for a dodge cap, in completely different classlead.

With that in mind, please consider:

The only difference between artefact pets is this:

Non-invincible     Invincible  (both including Riding)
    useless               useful
     550cr                1541cr

artefact pets should be better, but non-artefact pets shouldn't be useless.

Kenway

Stable thing is good. But since we're putting that aside for the moment I guess...

Make mount armour a forgable that you can give to a mount at a certain level of Riding similar to Chivalry's WARHAWK and make it so armoured mounts can have BARDING to act as a damage shield breakable by movement, raze, mountkick, mountleap, trample, startle, intimidate, etcetera. 

I was going to customize my mount to be wearing barding anyways.(horse armour for those too lazy to google and/or not complete nerds ha psych you're currently on a forum for an all text fantasy game loser)

Hasar

Mules

Ernam

Thanks for not reading anything.  Disregarded.

In addition, if the strategy of "bring 50 mules to every fight you go to" is somehow valid, I don't see how, at all, just having a single mount that doesn't die in 10 seconds wouldn't be.

It's nonsensical to suggest that mounts need to die so fast for some reason, but buying bulk mules is perfectly acceptable.

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

Lets just leave out discussion of respawn times / stables, although it's a good idea for a classlead or IDEA.

It doesn't address the issue that the mounts die in a few seconds in combat, at all.

To put things in perspective, I'll point out that I, like almost any intelligent fighter fighting someone using a non-artefact pet, immediately kill mounts at the beginning of fights.  It's the only logical thing to do, since it only takes a few seconds, can't be stopped, and completely eliminates an an entire skillset and several key defensive/offensive strategy options for your opponent.

if I lose my mount im like well shit now I have to be more careful because Proficy killed it.

The respawn aspect comes from well fuck now I have to wait till tomorrow to be able to use mountjump to get past walls instead of tumbling.

And Mount jump is extremely useful in not only your current duel (icewalls/stonewalls) but also in the next twenty hours that you could use a mount jump.

And sure being able to leap past these things is there for 700 credits. but if your going to spend 700 credits for leap might as well get the mount.

Ernam

Buying greaves instead of artie pet is pretty dumb for most classes.  I have them because I needed Leap for monk, which can't fight mounted.  Essentially everything but monk, serpent, and BM should get artie pet instead, as you suggested.

Mountjump shouldn't cost 1500cr though.  It's in Riding, and it's unfair to require a 1250cr mount to use it for more than 10 seconds.

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

Buying greaves instead of artie pet is pretty dumb for most classes.  I have them because I needed Leap for monk, which can't fight mounted.  Essentially everything but monk, serpent, and BM should get artie pet instead, as you suggested.

Mountjump shouldn't cost 1500cr though.  It's in Riding, and it's unfair to require a 1250cr mount to use it for more than 10 seconds.

Serpents with artie pets are actually more viable imo, don't need leap if you have evade really. and serpents can fully function with a mount besides evade.

So mounting pretty much just gives you extra dodge/mount jump with the loss of evade. which can counter the classes who are killing the mounts to start with fairly well.

Bm comes with leap in the class skills, and Monk.. Horkval is always a strong option for leap making the leaping artifact less worth while than the artie mount in a huge turnout imo.

Only real difference is you can trade in the leaping but you can't the mount.