Runelore is boring

Aepas

So, I've been seeing a lot of people complain about how runelore is, even though it's a massively powerful group item between totems and raid utility. It has lost a bit of it's spunk with the way some of the hunting runes work now, so I was walking back from work daydreaming about how I would use more runelore in 1v1 combat.

We can currently hold up to 2 runes in a room, plus active ones like thurisaz and hugalaz. I thought that perhaps being able to pre-stage runes would allow for some new tactics that are otherwise negated by having to sketch each rune individually.

The idea goes like this:
you can do half-runes in your room, hiding them from a third person view. This ability to hide runes would cause balance to be a bit longer than normal.

A second quick stroke finishes off both runes at the same time with a much faster balance, causing both runes to go active at the same time.

This would allow a bit more diversity to how runes are currently used in combat, and perhaps allow for a more potent thurisaz stack, hugalaz damage, or activating my trap card if a person tries to leave the room for a jpk or something.

Right now, yes it seems rather limited with my ideas only branching off into damage stacks or the wunjo, but I figure it would be a nifty mechanic that would give some runelore more potency in 1v1 situations.

yes or no?

Addama

I don't think Hugalaz or Thurisaz need more damage, as they are Hugalaz does like 1800 damage over 8-10 seconds (including sketch time), Thurisaz does around 800 every 2 seconds and you can prep-sketch five of those in a row and follow up with Hugalaz + DSLs to absolutely deep-dick your opponent in DPS, and of course you can sketch runes in surrounding rooms and then force your opponent to follow you into said rooms for a quick transfix.

I do like the idea of being able to transfix somebody without moving them, but I'm a Runewarden and can see some extremely practical applications with disembowels and limb prep and such.

Nemutaur

I just want them to allow us to switch runeblade runes on the fly like tunesmithing.

Addama

Nemutaur said:

I just want them to allow us to switch runeblade runes on the fly like tunesmithing.

Did they fix Eihwaz yet?

Aerek

Runelore isn't a bad skill by any means, and has some pretty fantastic situational strengths. People might find it boring for that reason, though: most of it is situational. Totem propping, stacking damage runes, and tumbling onto wunjo/nairat, etc are some very powerful perks, but if you're not in the specific situations or fighting the specific opponents where those are useful, I suppose the skill could feel lackluster to some.

If there is an issue, it's just that there aren't many "active use" runes. They're either set-and-forget passive effects, or the walk-in runes that are trickier to use well. On-demand transfix would be pretty OP, and I agree that thurisaz/hugalaz is pretty crazy already if they don't run as soon as they see the sketches, so I'm not sure the proposed mechanic would solve more problems than it creates. I think an easier solution would just be to introduce more runes that do take effect immediately on sketching, or switch some of the passive/walk-in runes over to active effects. The fact that runes fire the moment we finish them, (the same time we regain balance) is something that Runelore hasn't really taken advantage of. If affliction runes like inguz or loshre were active runes that fired on sketch, we could chain those afflictions with our DSLs, and that could open up some pretty interesting combinations. Other affliction runes or more exotic effects specifically designed as active uses could definitely add another facet to the skill.

Aepas

ah, well I never meant that the final sketch would cause runes like wunjo to instantly grab the target, just that if they left the rune you could essentially finish the two runes with one command, rather than having to sketch one at a time. It essentially just allows you to sketch two runes at once, not change their functionality.

Addama

But would that make Runelore exciting?  Everything would still be contingent upon people entering and leaving rooms.

I think adding functionality to Runeblades and maybe Runic Armour would spice up the skillset a lot.  Like Nemutaur said, being able to swap between empowerments would be a nice start.  I wouldn't mind seeing more empowerments, right now we have two because Eihwaz is broken and Pithakhan just screws up your limb prep. 

Aerek

You might want to check you AB listings. Pithakhan has a completely new and much more useful effect.

Daslin

Wait for knight changes. Weapon runes are being changed.

Kenway

Daslin said:

Wait for knight changes. Weapon runes are being changed.

No, only the stat boosting runes, Lagua Lagul Laguz are. Empowerments will still be the same.

Ernam

@Aepas, while I agree with you, sortof, it seems like a weird time to be proposing knight changes, considering the entire concept of knight combat is currently about to be dramatically altered.

Kenway

@Ernam not if he goes dual cutting!

Ernam

You don't know that yet.

Addama

Aerek said:

You might want to check you AB listings. Pithakhan has a completely new and much more useful effect.

So I just tested Pithakhan.  Much more useful, yes, but a 10% drain that only procs as often as Nairat doesn't really pose a tremendous threat unless you're tag-teaming with a Priest.

Amarillys

I give up. Can someone tell me what proc stands for? I think I figured out what it means, but I can't figure out what it stands for >_<

Addama

Amarillys said:

I give up. Can someone tell me what proc stands for? I think I figured out what it means, but I can't figure out what it stands for >_<

Procure.

Eld

Amarillys said:

I give up. Can someone tell me what proc stands for? I think I figured out what it means, but I can't figure out what it stands for >_<

It's a term referring to a random effect, that occurs with some probability, occurring. In this case, the effect of the runeblade empowerment is something extra (mana drain, freezing, extra damage) that has a chance to happen whenever the weapon hits; saying the effect procced on a particular hit just means that the extra effect fired on that hit.

The origin of the term is disputed, but is usually said to be an abbreviation either for procedure (as in, the program has a particular procedure that runs whenever thing X happens, which might result in thing Y also happening) or for "programmed random occurrence" (that one seems likely to be a backronym, but like I said, disputed). 

Addama

It's for procured effect. 

Eld

Addama said:

It's for procured effect. 

I have never seen that version, and can only Google up a single instance of it (versus >10k each for "special procedure" or "programmed random occurrence"). Seems unlikely.

Atalkez

Mana/focus locks, wat.

Change to Pith was legit.

Aepas

Ernam said:

@Aepas, while I agree with you, sortof, it seems like a weird time to be proposing knight changes, considering the entire concept of knight combat is currently about to be dramatically altered.

I'm really not trying to make any knight changes. Runelore happens to appear in other classes. I was just trying to think if there was another way to go about actually using the ability of SKETCH RUNE that could lead to different rune types and combinations in the future. I'd even be fine if such a thing was shaman only, since they could still use a bit in the ways of diversity.

In theory, almost all offensive runes have to be activated two at a time, with one always being wunjo. I just thought that having a way to sketch the two runes at once, or reveal them together would allow for some more diverse tactics. (Though this would still require some more changes into how runelore actually works.)

Not really looking into knight tweaks at the moment. After the testing period I'd say knights are going to be in a pretty fun place as it is.

Aerek

Addama said:

Aerek said:

You might want to check you AB listings. Pithakhan has a completely new and much more useful effect.

So I just tested Pithakhan.  Much more useful, yes, but a 10% drain that only procs as often as Nairat doesn't really pose a tremendous threat unless you're tag-teaming with a Priest.

It's not a direct threat, no, but you have to think about the related effects. If you do any kind of damage, they're sipping health constantly, which means their only mana regen comes from moss/potash. (They're probably negating their own moon with active abilities) Mana damage of that measure, especially since Pith can double-proc for 20%, means that Monks quickly lose the ability to Transmute, Alchemists and Priests don't have mana for their offense, any class is in danger of losing their mana-draining abilities if they hit 0, and focus/mana locks are a possibility.

You won't kill them with mana damage, but it can open up some possibilities, and even if you go for the usual kills it can damage mana-users' ability to effectively fight you, which of course helps you.

Addama

Aerek said:

Addama said:

Aerek said:

You might want to check you AB listings. Pithakhan has a completely new and much more useful effect.

So I just tested Pithakhan.  Much more useful, yes, but a 10% drain that only procs as often as Nairat doesn't really pose a tremendous threat unless you're tag-teaming with a Priest.

It's not a direct threat, no, but you have to think about the related effects. If you do any kind of damage, they're sipping health constantly, which means their only mana regen comes from moss/potash. (They're probably negating their own moon with active abilities) Mana damage of that measure, especially since Pith can double-proc for 20%, means that Monks quickly lose the ability to Transmute, Alchemists and Priests don't have mana for their offense, any class is in danger of losing their mana-draining abilities if they hit 0, and focus/mana locks are a possibility.

You won't kill them with mana damage, but it can open up some possibilities, and even if you go for the usual kills it can damage mana-users' ability to effectively fight you, which of course helps you.

Bolded the part where I disagree.

Yes, this has some obvious implications against Monks - they fare badly without an ample pool of mana to soak up damage - but this is a niche application.  Against anything else, it takes a long time for Pith to proc enough to matter.  If you're looking to slaughter the enemy with slow, hard hits, you're better off with Hugalaz to expedite that, and if you're seeking limb prep, Nairat is still superior. 

Consider, for example, that a double Pith proc drains 20% mana which is negated by a single mana sip (though I'll concede that puts them behind by a single health sip, though if they're also eating potash/moss the distinction is rather trivial), but a double Nairat proc freezes the asshole solid.  It's a wrecking shot to momentum.  A single Nairat proc on a limb break with epseth/epteth forces them to apply one restoration and four salves, another wrecking shot. 

Particularly against other Knights, Pith really loses any purpose whatsoever, whereas Nairat can be useful against anything.

Jovolo

It's basically Demons that always procs mana. Don't forget the delph/aconite for 350 mana drain on every dsl too, and a lot of classes actively drain mana as part of their defence and/or offence. It's a great middle ground option for people who don't have 245's+, in which case any advantage from Nairat can be rendered useless by good curing.

Focus locks also really don't have a whole lot to do with draining mana. It's an entirely different premise despite appearing similar on paper (affliction-wise). 

Addama

Eld said:

Addama said:

It's for procured effect. 

I have never seen that version, and can only Google up a single instance of it (versus >10k each for "special procedure" or "programmed random occurrence"). Seems unlikely.

Setting aside the numerous logical faults one must embrace in order to conclude that counting Google hits validates anything, I've seen, heard, and used the phrase "procured effect" in games before Achaea.  I'm not saying that "special procedure" doesn't also accurately describe the same thing as "procured effect" - you can call it what you want to so long as you don't lose the actual meaning - just that, in my years of dice-rolling, I've always said "proc" meaning "procured effect" not "programmed random occurrence" (which would be rather weird in the context of a tabletop game).

Ernam

Jovolo said:

It's basically Demons that always procs mana. Don't forget the delph/aconite for 350 mana drain on every dsl too, and a lot of classes actively drain mana as part of their defence and/or offence. It's a great middle ground option for people who don't have 245's+, in which case any advantage from Nairat can be rendered useless by good curing.

Focus locks also really don't have a whole lot to do with draining mana. It's an entirely different premise despite appearing similar on paper (affliction-wise). 

This.

Asmodron

Eld

More derailing, spoilered for those who don't care.
[spoiler]

Addama said:

Eld said:

Addama said:

It's for procured effect. 

I have never seen that version, and can only Google up a single instance of it (versus >10k each for "special procedure" or "programmed random occurrence"). Seems unlikely.

Setting aside the numerous logical faults one must embrace in order to conclude that counting Google hits validates anything, I've seen, heard, and used the phrase "procured effect" in games before Achaea.  I'm not saying that "special procedure" doesn't also accurately describe the same thing as "procured effect" - you can call it what you want to so long as you don't lose the actual meaning - just that, in my years of dice-rolling, I've always said "proc" meaning "procured effect" not "programmed random occurrence" (which would be rather weird in the context of a tabletop game).

If you have a better way of gauging the relative frequency of use of specific terms on the internet than looking them up on your favorite search engine and comparing the number of hits, I'd be interested to hear it. I'm not claiming that no one uses the word with your meaning, just that it appears to be much less common than procedure or process, and on that count it seems unlikely that that was in fact the origin of the term. Programmed random occurrence also seems rather unlikely, as it's probably a backronym.

Of course, this is all addressed at usage in the context of online games because, as far as I know, that's where the term originated. I've never encountered it in the context of tabletop games, but if there were evidence of it being used there before the advent of MUDs, that would also be interesting (and a strong argument against the "procedure" etymology).

In any case, that's probably plenty of derailing for one thread.
[/spoiler]

Darklyre

Random idea for spicing up Runelore:

Runestones! Blank stones that can be inscribed with certain runes, then thrown at somebody either in the same room or adjacent rooms. It'd let you bring the rune to them instead of waiting for them to walk into it, but since throwing takes balance you can't immediately follow up with a lunge or something.

Addama

Darklyre said:

Random idea for spicing up Runelore:

Runestones! Blank stones that can be inscribed with certain runes, then thrown at somebody either in the same room or adjacent rooms. It'd let you bring the rune to them instead of waiting for them to walk into it, but since throwing takes balance you can't immediately follow up with a lunge or something.

Since most offensive runes require the target be unblind, you'd either need to be able to throw two at once or somehow forgo the unblind requirement.

Synbios

Darklyre said:

Random idea for spicing up Runelore:

Runestones! Blank stones that can be inscribed with certain runes, then thrown at somebody either in the same room or adjacent rooms. It'd let you bring the rune to them instead of waiting for them to walk into it, but since throwing takes balance you can't immediately follow up with a lunge or something.

You mean like Lusternia's Runes?