Rites, Harmonics, Vibes - multiple players

Ernam

I fully intend on submitting a classlead on this, provided discussion doesn't unveil a good reason not to, so I'd like to open this idea up for a bit of discussion.

I see very little reason, aside from the game's original coding limitations, why we wouldn't be able to allow multiple players to drop their own rites/harmonics/vibes etc in the same room.

Obviously, a player would only be affected by one player's rites (etc) at a time, so this would not imbalance anything in group combat.  Whose vibes affect you if you're enemied to multiple players vibes, for example, would simply be a matter of who dropped them first.

The primary reason for this suggestion is to alleviate the silliness of multiple magi, bards, and Devotion users facing each other in the arena, and a secondary and also beneficial effect would be that if two magi (for example) are in a raid group, one of them doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice his entire Crystalism skillset simply because another magi is already present.

Discuss!

Ernam

One side suggestion could be to only allow this in the arena, but I see no reason why this couldn't/shoudln't work everywhere.

Daslin

Say Cyrene were to raid(if -ever-) with all of CT,  I think the only "balancing" issue, would be that you and say... Achilles, Tesha, and Aodfionn could -easily- enemy up the 40 people, and rite up your room, and just lolplaugh. That's my two cents!

Atalkez

You can already enemy 40 people if you buy 4 circles.

Caladbolg

Daslin said:

Say Cyrene were to raid(if -ever-) with all of CT,  I think the only "balancing" issue, would be that you and say... Achilles, Tesha, and Aodfionn could -easily- enemy up the 40 people, and rite up your room, and just lolplaugh. That's my two cents!

Imo, you should be able to enemy an entire raid group at the same time, if it's 40 vs 30 or something along those lines your going to have alot more problems out of lag than anything else.

But personally I believe the enemy system is the way it is not to stop you from enemying the entire raid groups or to stop you from choosing your enemies wisely but more along the lines of you not having three-four orginzations enemied entirely all the time.

Also: On that note another problem that came up is retardation, cubes and other destroying effects, if for instance Mithridates, Austere, Jonesey, Cain, random magi xy and z all had vibes down and you throw a cube, and sketch eihwaza ( can't spell) and had retardation down, who's vibes are going first? Would it be 1 vibe for each persons set per tick?

Edit: Also for the record I have been in Paladin vs Priest and Paladin vs Paladin duels, you pretty much have to agree to not use rites, which for instance with paladin takes away most of your use out of devotion, leaving you with just chivalry to fight the other with. Which is pretty lame.

Sena

How would this work with retardation, or cube sigils?

Daslin

Right, right. I'm just talking for plebs like me. Jobless/creditless. :P

Antonius

Atalkez said:

You can already enemy 40 people if you buy 4 circles.

I don't own an artefact that expands my enemy list, so there's three possibilities:
1. It's only just been added.
2. I missed the fact that it existed all this time.
3. It doesn't exist.

1 and 3 are about the only ones I'd consider real possibilities, since I've read through all of the HELP ARTEFACTS files a lot. There's the trait that gives you an extra 5 enemy spots, that's all I'm aware of. There's the circle of friendship or whatever the hell it's called, but that has nothing to do with either the ALLY or ENEMY systems.

Caladbolg said:

Edit: Also for the record I have been in Paladin vs Priest and Paladin vs Paladin duels, you pretty much have to agree to not use rites, which for instance with paladin takes away most of your use out of devotion, leaving you with just chivalry to fight the other with. Which is pretty lame.

Hands, Force, Peace, Inspiration, Hellsight, Dazzle, Damnation, etc. (i.e. all the active abilities that aren't rites) are all still available. Rites are totally passive, they don't make fighting much more interesting. Plus it's good practice for those fights where you're against somebody who flat out refuses to fight you if you lay rites.

---

On the actual suggestion, the major concern is that it completely removes the ability to kill a specific target to remove powerful room-wide abilities. If every Devotion user can in theory maintain a full set of rites then you have to kill them all before you're no longer fighting in them, rather than just that one person.

Sena

Antonius said:

Atalkez said:

You can already enemy 40 people if you buy 4 circles.

I don't own an artefact that expands my enemy list, so there's three possibilities:
1. It's only just been added.
2. I missed the fact that it existed all this time.
3. It doesn't exist.

1 and 3 are about the only ones I'd consider real possibilities, since I've read through all of the HELP ARTEFACTS files a lot. There's the trait that gives you an extra 5 enemy spots, that's all I'm aware of. There's the circle of friendship or whatever the hell it's called, but that has nothing to do with either the ALLY or ENEMY systems.

There was an auction item that increased enemy/ally limits, but nothing generally available besides the trait.

Ernam

There could be exceptions, for instance Retardation could be limited to a single vibe, and obviously the Piety/Warding rule would still apply, and other such things.  I don't think those checks would be difficult to implement.

Ernam

Antonius said:

On the actual suggestion, the major concern is that it completely removes the ability to kill a specific target to remove powerful room-wide abilities. If every Devotion user can in theory maintain a full set of rites then you have to kill them all before you're no longer fighting in them, rather than just that one person.

This effect is intended, as if multiple players are using their class abilities which they invested in learning, invested in casting, and invest in maintaining, then multiple players should have to be killed to remove their impact on the fight.

If I'm fighting two monks, and I want them both to stop hitting me with Tekura and Kai chokes, I have to kill them both.  There is no difference IMO, except for the fact that with my suggestion, rites still can't "stack" resulting in simultaneous impact on the fight, unlike Tekura and Kai chokes.

In general, if Magi A and B invest the significant amount of time it takes to spin a full set of vibes, there is no reason that magi B should not be able to use them at all, simply because magi A already has them in place.  

Sarapis

No chance at all we'd do this.

Ernam

Sarapis said:

No chance at all we'd do this.

Not even in arenas?

Sarapis

Could happen in arenas someday, but it's pretty far down the list.

Antonius

I'd prefer not to see more differences between the arena and actual combat, personally. The more things that work differently between the two the harder it is to actually practice for real combat in the arena.

Ernam

Yeah, but not being able to use Devotion in the arena, because I'm training against citymates is pretty unrealistic.  I think we have the same goal, but different ways of approaching it.

Xith

Yeah would be nice against enemies, but super OP with allies. like 5 Oscillate (amnesia) vibes going, you drop Retardation and everyone in the room just goes dormant.

Ernam

As I mentioned, the vibes shouldn't, and wouldn't stack in any way, and special exceptions can be made for things like retardation.