If you've never heard the phrase, "Kill Your Darlings" is a quote often touted in would-be writer circles that essentially means don't coddle your characters. Maim them, hurt them, allow bad things to happen (including death, although that doesn't apply here really). It means letting permanent, lasting, negative events happen that push your characters to new heights, etc.
Regardless of whether or not you appreciate the advice from a writer's point of view, it's an interesting concept to apply to your Achaean character. So I thought I'd open a discussion and see where it goes. Obviously, 'special snowflake syndrome' should be avoided and it doesn't all have to be motivated by Evil, but there's something to be said about adding some drama to your character's life by letting things happen to them.
1) Would you allow permanent, "negative" things to happen to your character? Orzaansyn recently had her eyes replaced by obsidian. Others, like Flair, have allowed their descriptions to "turn ugly" as part of their roleplay.
2) Perhaps more importantly, do you require OOC consent for someone to do something permanent to your character? Or would you be open to going with the flow of the roleplay? I think, going forward, most people should make a point of acquiring consent before they do something significant, but I know that some people (like me) are open to going with the flow.
3) How willing are you to propose or to do something negative to another character? Just killing a character or roleplaying a rivalry doesn't count here. There was a log on the forums of Stuneree being forced to pull his eye out of his head before he was allowed to return to Mhaldor, for example, which I don't think he was OOCly prepared for.
"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
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Forgot to add, when you look at him as an Atavian I usually put in there somewhere that he looks "unnaturally flawless" skin or hair or something along those lines
2) OOC consent can be exceptionally important. For me personally, Flair made very sure I was okay with what was happening. I didn't really know the extent of what was going to take place, but he warned me in general and we talked OOC a while about roleplaying. It made me much more comfortable, and I gained a good friend through the whole process, not to mention a wealth of richness for my character. Not everyone requires that OOC consent, but for myself personally, I think I would, simply because I am dreadfully attached to certain things about Melodie. I'd never let anyone shave her head, for instance. The only exception here would be if it was someone I knew and trusted very well beforehand, and they knew about my little general quirks and had a feel for what I'd be okay with, and what I wouldn't be.
3) I'd probably actually have a blast with this. I rarely get to exercise the "scary" part of Melodie in a way that doesn't make people whine and bitch for ages. I have helped two of Melodie's daughters put the gem in their forehead (owie), which is a family tradition - but these weren't exactly negative, so not sure that counts. I am a tad squeamish, so I suspect there would be some things I'd have difficulty with, but exploring it in general sounds fun. Baby steps and all of that. So in general, with a few cautions to be thought about, sure!
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
2. I would not require or ask for OOC consent - I would rather get a chance to react fluidly. If someone put in a reasonable amount of thought, then I would rather just roll with it than clutter it or break immersion by asking.
3. I think I would be willing, but I have never really had the opportunity present itself in such a way that doing so would be reasonable or in-character.
2. Nope. I really do prefer reacting in the moment, otherwise, it doesn't feel as... "real". If someone is worried about my reaction, they can ask, I don't mind. I just know that I prefer on-the-spot reaction.
3. Can and have done. Honestly, I kinda miss the... "darker" side of Daslin. Now though... I think I'll have to wait for @Daeir to give a sermon and phase one room away. Snipe him, and snicker as I die. (I'll aim for your eardrum, bub!)
2) No, and I'd prefer -not- knowing beforehand.
3) Very. And I'm not waiting for -your- OOC consent, either.
Some of the absolute best RP scenarios and moments* I've been involved in are when things have gone horribly, terrifically badly. Scenes where it was all on the fly, no prior collaboration took place, and everyone involved walked away from it damaged (physically, mentally, emotionally). It's all part of good character development.
On a related note, I was having a conversation with someone on this very topic the other day, and we both came to the conclusion that we really appreciate finding an individual who can (and does!) pick up and run with an awkward, unpleasant, ugly scenario. It's sort of a rarity, most will try to dodge the bullet or sugarcoat it and the after-effects, both those who seize the fuck-up and not only wield it, but wave it around like a flag, deserve kudos.
*And this is meant in terms of both writing, AND experience.
1) Without going too in-depth about the scope that this question covers, the answer is yes. Explanation below.
2) Yes. The reaction to this is twofold - if a reaction happens that would make it potentially more unfun than fun for me, the player, to play Jurixe the character, then I wouldn't want it done. Sure, some people can say 'make the best of a bad situation' and ideally you would, but if it's most likely just going to be a pain then I would definitely at least want to know what I'm getting into.
That being said, that doesn't mean that I need to or want to know the entire script in advance - no, certainly not. I'm very much all for organic roleplay. But I would much, much prefer roleplay that allows both parties the chance to determine what their own reaction or outcome would be, particularly if it is a giver/receiver type (see: Cresil and Gaia), as opposed to having the reaction forced on me and then me having to make the best of something that's already happened. I think choice is very important. You shouldn't get to dictate both what happens to your character and that of someone else's - you can suggest, but it's entirely up to them whether to roll with it or not.
3) I'm Mhaldorian, so...is this a trick question? <_< But no, I'd be perfectly willing to, sure, but again I would do it per option 2. There was once where I orchestrated a kidnapping, but it was my first time and I wasn't very sure what I was doing, so I think I kind of screwed that up. The other player just fullhealed and basically got delivered out after a while, so it was kind of a failure, though a good learning experience.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that [everlasting] life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."
Bluef was a pretty dedicated Babelonian way before it was cool to be pro-Oblivion. Her faith and emotional trust in others was devoured when Flair killed her and buried her decaying corpse in the desert during a ritual. But that's also when she first came to know and understand the three worlds as she calls them (Creation, Soul and Spirit Realms) because she was given the chance to walk as a Spirit for several decades (while I was dormant). To this day, when Flair summons her to the desert, she can't resist the call though, even though she still bears numerous psychological scars and has embraced an entirely new path in life that is pretty antithetical to his.
Bluef's worse scars are probably of that nature: Inside her mind or spirit. She had to live through Zalhisteth, the Traveller possessing one of the Walkers on her watch as House Leader and has roleplayed losing her son Montago soon after to the same type of malevolence. As a result, she is a conflicted individual whose aloofness and emotional detachment is constantly conflicted by the heavy burden she feels to protect everyone she really does care about deep down. This is why the healing side of shamanism is particularly important to her.[/Spoiler]
In the few instances that I didn't like what was transpiring or want to roleplay it through, I sought out other IC resolution. For example, a divine had a beef with Bluef for selecting a new Patron for the Spirit Walkers, so she was torturing Bluef with visions and voices to the point that it made doing anything almost impossible. I didn't want Bluef to cowtow to her because I felt House Leaders should have the right to select patrons without those kinds of IC repercussions, so I went to the lovely Valnurana (Bluef's personal divine) who healed her and gave her a special amethyst stone to block the incoming hallucinations.
Alls well that ends well, as they say, except of course that IC relationship between Bluef and the divine was never really repaired. If I had that particular instance to do over again, I would probably do something entirely different but at the time there was just too much going on IC and OOCly in my life to give it the roleplay attention it deserved.
There is one particular person that Bluef had a very close friendship with IC (and who I grew to think of as a friend OOCly). When she chose to stab Bluef in the back and began roleplaying things to get Bluef in all kinds of trouble with divine, cities, etc. it was a shock. I honestly wasn't sure what was happening IC and at the time I didn't want to be RPing any of it. I took a break from Achaea but things just got worse when Bluef returned. To this day, I miss the friendship we had but I could probably never trust the person (or anyone) the same way again IC.
Likewise, I think anyone who has ever divorced IC when it was not mutually agreed upon to do so knows the sting of that IC relationship ending and having to deal with the fallout. Unfortunately I've been on both the giving and receiving end of that kind of negative roleplay. I have not always dealt with it well IC - but once the smoke cleared and the rubble settled I always tried to exact some negative consequence on Bluef herself for the failed relationship. For example, when she and Exain divorced, her sanctuary was destroyed in the Dream, forcing her to have to re-build her manifested place of safety for the Order.
Where I draw the line for this sort of thing is anything to do with PK or enemyings. Bluef is enemied to two cities for charges that pretty much are fabricated. She was labeled as a thief in one instances and accused of doing a rite against a city in another. If I'd had Bluef do either of these things, I'd be okay with the enemying, but the fact that I wasn't remotely interested in becoming an enemy made the foisted negative roleplay really unwelcome. In such instances, I do think consent should be acquired in some way.
[/Spoiler]
If someone leaves the Curia, we roleplay a special rite of Unweaving that's not particularly pleasant for the person involved because it means we're cutting them from our midst spiritually as well as physically (https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/5ec7ad05).
When Bluef's Heir decided to do some personal things in the Fortress that just shouldn't have been done, she did a similar rite to roleplay out why she and the spirits no longer thought she was fit for the role of House Leader, but she kept it clean without intending to slut shame the person involved or anything of the like. Still it was rough and not the happiest time IC for anyone involved, Bluef included (http://pastebin.com/hqsxmtS5).
I think the hardest kind of negative roleplay to foist on any character is a war and yeah, Bluef was a part of a group that did that too. Bluef even castrated her adopted son in a wicked impromptu ritual like 200 years ago. To @Molimo's credit, he's lived with the disfigurement ever since.
I've always justified these negative actions in my mind using the basic rule that for every action there is a reaction. These reactions may not have been popular, pleasant or or welcome at the time but the instances were few and hopefully the good things Bluef did as a parent, house leader, friend, and Curia member outweighed the bad.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
(Heh, I didn't see Jhaeli's later post before writing this. Same deal!)
This explanation also offers an easy out to people who don't want to include alterations in their desc or RP. Things like RP branding or wounding (not uncommon in Mhaldor) don't need consent IMHO unless it's important to you that the subject plays along... and the people doing branding and wounding need to be mindful of the other's enjoyment.
More involved rituals involving torture, sacrifice, active participation of the "victim", anything even remotely sexual, and so on should have OOC consent (or have been freely suggested by the victim IC).
1) Yes, I'm up for that. Have had this happen. It was enjoyable. Failure and pain are a lot of fun to roleplay when somebody else is actively working with you to make it interesting.
2) see above
3) Torture is fun! But again, see above.
I tend to buck the OOC angle of it because I feel like it kills something -in the moment-. Not necessarily breaking immersion, but more along the lines of depriving the character of the opportunity to react without foresight or preparation, and also depriving the player the fun of potentially discovering or creating new elements/layers of the character.
It does bear mention that I've also been rather fortunate with those I've interacted with on any sort of deep and/or meaningful level, where I've had enough inherent knowledge to trust that nothing really stupid is going to transpire, so this undoubtedly colors my perspective on it.
2. Yes and No. Sometimes things happen in game that you don't expect to happen and you have to play along and learn to deal with your own bullsh*t that you created. Agree with @Bluef here. There are novellas that could be written for many of us.
3. Agree with @Ulrike here. Torture is fun.
Since @Flair is the persona du jour, remember when Lady Selene kissed his boo-boo's away and he was handsome for a hot minute?
Don't bother asking, I'll roll with it (and expect the same)
Fuck yes. Nell's a psychological wreck and pretty damn broken as a whole, and I would love the opportunity to actually explore that more often.
On sort of a side note, I always wondered what would happen if Tillie were to become permanently injured in some way, seeing as she's a dancer. She abandoned her life as a Blademaster to become a Bard, so the experience would be doubly negative. As was also mentioned, though, I feel it would be a bit too special snowflake-y, and wouldn't do it primarily because a)I don't like asking people to do things to my character, I'd rather let it just happen, and b) I would hate to annoy my housemates with it. Though..it would probably just mean switching her art path, but still. -shrug-
2) Perhaps more importantly, do you require OOC consent for someone to do something permanent to your character? For most things, I absolutely love seeing what spontaneously occurs - and permanently remains - from a roleplaying encounter. That's what makes them so much fun. Of course, I've mentioned in the one thread about making roleplay more consistent and such that there are benefits to discussing some ideas beforehand: mainly, as @Jurixe mentioned, things that are extremely life-altering and significant...but rarely do I find myself refusing to play something out. I love to see where others ideas go, and how they will affect my own roleplaying experiences.
3) How willing are you to propose or to do something negative to another character? Tillie can get angry- but very rarely does it come out. I would be totally willing to have her lash out, or create another negative experience for another character....but, currently,she has no real 'hatred' towards anyone for any one reason. It takes a lot to rile her up, as she is normally a curious and calm sort.
I would like to make such an instance as natural as humanely possible for both sides...but, as above, if it were to be something very life-altering, I would be sure to communicate at least a bit OOCly before carrying it out.
1. Yes.
2. It's always more fun when RP is natural and spur of the moment, but there are times when I think an OOC discussion is warranted beforehand. If it's going to cause some sort of permanent damage (physically or mentally) to another player, it's usually time for an OOC talk. It also depends. I mean if it's @Halos or @Silas or someone I've RPd with many times and trust, then I'll likely just go with it. I know Halos isn't going to walk up to me and say "Poof! I've cured you of the Chaos" and expect me to have Flair do a 180 and start fighting for the Light.
If I'm initiating something it can go one of two ways. Sometimes I'll just find a random new player from Light or Nature or Evil or whatever and just start talking with them about the wonders of Chaos. It can be a lot of fun and when the players are true newbs it's a good way to introduce them to RP in Achaea.
If it's something bigger that's going to have longer lasting consequences then I'll send a quick message. My number one goal in anything like that is that everyone ends up having fun (which is one of the reasons I think people still like to RP with me after all these years) and forcing life-changing RP on someone's character isn't fun for them. So, I'll send a brief message and ask if they're up for something. I'll try to give the barest amount of information I can about it, but I don't want them to end up in the middle of something they regret either. Then again if it's with @Taraus I'll just do it and she'll roll with it
3. Willing.
2) Don't ask for me, even if I'll often ask what people are comfortable typing out over glossing over with a single emote.
3) I'd love to revel in Kei's horribly scarred psyche, and give as well as receive.
My stance is that people should always be willing to try new things, and in serious conflict roleplay both parties should be prepared to lose something. If you're not willing to put something on the line, I just don't see the point. If I want a game where nothing really changes, I can go play Animal Crossing or something.
If I were playing a Mhaldorian or an occultist or something, though, you can bet they'd acquire that sort of thing. Likewise, if I were playing a comic relief jester, they'd probably bounce back from things even Mhaldorians would shudder at, likely with a mad grin on their face.
2. Depends on the situation and the scenario.
I mean you can jab a blade in Nim's eye if you want, in hopes of blinding her in one eye forever, but she'd just go "I'm already blind" while spending a small portion of her will to clot the blood, while a magical tattoo regenerates the damaged tissue.
So I guess I don't need some sort of warning (as long as it doesn't approach mudsex or guro levels of weird I guess), just as long as you don't mind that I'll still be the one deciding how I respond to it, and also that you may be foiled.
3. Nim tries her best to practice benevolence, so this one's kinda hard. If she tried to do something permanent to someone, she'd aim at making it positive in some way.
I'd honestly feel awkward about it in Achaea since Achaea has all these anti-permanent features in place that make it weird trying to do something to someone permanently. It's like the reverse of turning a Call of Cthulhu game into a slice-of-life roleplay with tea and character growth in small, mundane ways.
If I ever became a God or Immortal or something though, doing permanent things to people would totally be high on my agenda, since I think that's a really magical part of roleplaying in general.
2) It depends. There are people I'd trust enough (either trusting them personally or just trusting that they're good roleplayers) to force changes on my characters without any warning. Outside of those people, I'd generally prefer IC warning rather than asking OOC for consent. Before doing something huge and permanent, try to hint at what you intend to do, and ideally leave a way out in case it's something I'm just not comfortable with. Certain things pretty much have to be arranged OOC though, for practical reasons.
3) I'd generally be pretty hesitant to cause something permanently negative like that myself, largely because I'd be worried that everyone else will just find it stupid and ignore it. I don't have much confidence in my roleplaying or my ability to pull it off well.
I didn't even think about mandated class changes. Good point, @Sena. When you start instigating those kinds of negative situations (and by instigating I mean the person doesn't see this coming, isn't genuinely deserving of it, or has been actively trying to resolve the issues standing in their way), I think you really do need to take the person's ability to go along with things into account. Not everyone can afford to class change on a whim.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
2)yes and no. If the permanent follows a sensible storyline than sure. Like, for instance, a scar or brand. No if it's a sexual toned or otherwise life altering. Removal of wings would be permissible (if she was atavian), but say, something like he's going to tear my legs off so I have to walk on my hands or perm injuring the body in such a way no further children can be had will be a "no I want to think this over" kind of thing.
3) again, yes and no. Will I be okay with it? How will this affect Kerria, will -she- be okay with it. Kerria is training for battle, but overall is a total sweetheart. This would likely go against her unless she was put into the proper situation.
I note that Kerria started out designed with a very specific scar. The scar was questioned by older characters and I was told it was not proper or informed that mending/epidermal would of fixed it so there's no reason for it.
eventually I changed it to a tattoo, and even then it was "you know your pack/cloak/blouse/armour/x would cover that thing up" I ended up giving up on it all together, even though it could very well lead to interesting rp.
Having other tell you that your flaw can and should be fixed because they think so is a huge damper on rp.
He walks Achaea with an almost terminal fear of Sirens, as he has had several very bad situations involving sirens. No, get your head out of the gutter, not that kind of situation. He is intelligent enough to know that it's not a trait of the race, but rather a string of bad luck. Getting his heart ripped out and handed back to him by a Siren, is almost a central theme in his existence though, and yes, that is complete coincidental RP. As a result, he politely avoids Sirens for the most part. His house leader being a Siren, made for interesting internal conflict.
Psychologically he is a bit broken, witnessing the death of each of your family members in separate incidents, will have that effect on one. He also has a bit of difficulty distinguishing between being a human and being a tree, as he perceives himself as being both.
All the above boils down to: Bad shit happening to your character, does not have to be visible and/or advertised.
I once had the pleasure of playing in a D&D game, where one of the characters became an eunuch through no choice of his own. It was the kind of thing that would never really effect the character in anything but an RP way, it also caused a sub-plot to the whole story, where the character saved gold and treasure to pay for the services at a remote temple, where they specialized in the re-growth of appendages.
It's often the invisible things, that lead to the most interesting RP.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
Interested in joining a Discord about Achaean RP? Want to comment on RP topics or have RP questions? Check the Achaean RP Resource out here: https://discord.gg/Vbb9Zfs
2) It depends on the person. Usually, I do not, but if I'm not pleased with what the person has to propose, I simply ignore it, would it be consciously or not. Most of the time, I am the initiator of my own torments. It could be an explicit (IC) planning with people, or simply my own ideas just to initiate things with people I want to interract with. At times it is not that brilliant.
3) Just like answer 2, it depends on the person it would be, but equally, I try to do things that would allow the person to skip it if they dislike.
Recently, I tried to OOC plan something and unfortunately the two people I wished to do it with disliked the idea. It was the first time I was trying to do things this way and it made me realize it was really a bad idea. I should rather have ICly placed them before it and let them play the fact they dislike it.
I'm not a fan of imbalanced, maimed, and otherwise utterly fucked-up characters walking around in Achaea that are somehow extraordinarily functional despite their on-off craziness. To give an example, and I don't mean to say that this -is- the case: someone mentioned a character whose eyes have been replaced with some inorganic material. It's a magic world, fine, great, that's wonderful, I get that. Still, the trauma of losing the eyes you've used all your life up until that point, not to mention the actual discomfort I'm sure any amputee or surgical patient out there feels about using body parts that are not -yours- can't -possibly- mean you're okay up until the moment you remember you're not.
I understand, very much, about character quirks, and the way Achaea works (I'm even an advocate of the 'scene' style of roleplay, where the things that happen in-between, like raids and bashing and such are much more relaxed, and you can shoot the shit and be goofy and have it 'count' less, such that what -really- matters is the time you spend -actually- roleplaying, for the record), but, nevertheless, I feel a little turned off by what, 9/10 times, feels like a plea for attention.
The problem I have is that it feels a bit like the 'hot chick' descriptions out there- it's a shallow way of attracting attention. At best, disfigurations and such, in my experience, are by and large just a shock factor to try and make a character seem 'memorable'- and outside of their irascible psychopathy, or their replaced body parts, or whatever, they're bland as an unseasoned noodle. In short, I'm fine with Anedhel getting maimed or disfigured or anysuch, but it'd better be a damn good story, and it'd better make sense.
As for the second and third question, the answer, again, is 'depends'- I'm fine with you doing things to Anedhel if I've worked with you before and I know what your play style is like, and that you don't do things just for the sake of doing them. If not, I'm a lot more comfortable OOCing (I actually don't find it 'immersion breaking' to OOC about a scene with someone, it helps me get a feel for what (s)he, as a player, is trying to accomplish, and that, usually, can only lead to good things) before proceeding, specially if it's some scenario where, inevitably, the odds are stacked completely against my character, such that bad things are going to happen to him with no possibility of escape (another big problem I have with the maimed character stories).
The third question merits basically the same answer, except reviewed from the other side; I'm not interested in writing the text equivalent of Saw #, or Hostel #. While graphic descriptions and terrible scenarios can add a wonderful quality to a scene, more often than not, it becomes a word-porn situation, rather than a character exploration, from what I've witnessed, and, again, I'm not really interested in that. I sure as hell wouldn't do something terrible to someone without clearing it with 'em first- and, to be honest, while I might follow, to help someone's story along (and I'd be flattered they'd trust me with something that impactful), I'd find it hard to lead. I'd probably never say to someone 'Yo, I thought it'd be really cool if my character captures yours and pulls out his/her/its thumbnails with thumbscrews, cuz reasons.' That just seems bizarre to me.
Tl;dr: Depends. A lot of the time, it feels like cheap thrills, and I'm not a fan of that. I probably have to know you way well before I consider something like that, but it's not out of the question- and, if done right, I think it could be a memorable event, as the person behind a character -and- as an amateur writer, but what I've witnessed in person hints that I wouldn't get that satisfaction out of the scenarios I've witnessed/heard of.
ETA: To the wonderful people who play maimed characters who are interesting and absorbing- I applaud you completely, and I don't hold anything against you; whatever examples I used that might resonate with a particular character are absolutely not meant as an attack on anyone- I'm not hear to smear anyone's character or anything. Just generic hypotheticals!
I'm very open with this, but I'm more inclined to allow it to happen if it's with a character whom I have history with. For example: Ruth has been emotionally scarred before, which makes her more reticent than she already is naturally, especially in situations where she has to display any form of emotion to her family members.
2) Perhaps more importantly, do you require OOC consent for someone to do something permanent to your character?
I prefer RP that leads naturally into something spontaneous, whether it'll end up as permanent, "positive or negative" thing to my character. Therefore, while I don't usually require OOC consent for someone who wishes to affect such kind of change to Ruth, I would (as written above) be more inclined to go along with it if it's with a character I already have a history with or has interacted to an extent with (or if they're Gods, even). I don't usually mind.
3) How willing are you to propose or to do something negative to another character?
I'm very willing, actually, but if I'm asked to do something negative to another character, I don't usually like to be given a plan and a fixed method to get there. That, and it has to be something that is in-line with Ruth's personality.
Elsewise, I'm guilty of seeking the thrill of enforcing negative choices/outcomes on another character. I did that once to @Zarla but unfortunately, she has a bad habit of disappearing on me!