PK Experience Gain v Loss

Athelas

I feel like an ass at the moment, having just realized that Jhui might be getting a mail for every one of those tags.

Jhui, If that is the case, please accept my apology. I really did not mean for you to get spammed.

Jhui

Nah only 1 forum notification too, no worries

Nim

Strata said:

Please, more @political @discussion trying to convince IRE to implement mechanical changes toward our near-future utopia of cupcakes and unicorns. The only thing left will be Cyrene and a stupid goth kid from Hashan.

Yes but Hashan will almost be defeated, so it's worth it I mean what secret war, there's no secret war!

Strata

Nim said:

Strata said:

Please, more @political @discussion trying to convince IRE to implement mechanical changes toward our near-future utopia of cupcakes and unicorns. The only thing left will be Cyrene and a stupid goth kid from Hashan.

Yes but Hashan will almost be defeated, so it's worth it I mean what secret war, there's no secret war!

I'm all fine and dandy with living in a Cyrenian cupcake unicorn utopia. Hashan can exist too if only to write more scrolls about how they plan to do SOMETHING with their supposed existence. They make good toilet paper.

Nim

Strata said:

Nim said:

Strata said:

Please, more @political @discussion trying to convince IRE to implement mechanical changes toward our near-future utopia of cupcakes and unicorns. The only thing left will be Cyrene and a stupid goth kid from Hashan.

Yes but Hashan will almost be defeated, so it's worth it I mean what secret war, there's no secret war!

I'm all fine and dandy with living in a Cyrenian cupcake unicorn utopia. Hashan can exist too if only to write more scrolls about how they plan to do SOMETHING with their supposed existence. They make good toilet paper.

Rainbow tea parties have no room for darkness. None.

Ourania

Cut the city bashing crap and get back to the topic at hand.

Aepas

I think the KDR is an interesting way to boost someones XP gain or loss, but not so much the artifacts. Hell, look at me. I'm pretty artied and terrible at fighting. Winning over a midbie is good in my books, I'd be sad if my arties lessened my XP gain, especially since some forged weapons are better than arty weapons.

Siduri

Anyway, someone who's making apt use of his artefacts most likely has this reflected in his KDR anyway.
Just thinking out loud.

Aepas

Siduri said:

Anyway, someone who's making apt use of his artefacts most likely has this reflected in his KDR anyway.
Just thinking out loud.

This is likely true, which is another good reason that arties shouldn't directly relate to xp loss in this formula.

Athelas

Jhui said:

Nah only 1 forum notification too, no worries

Ok, not feeling like an ass anymore. Thanks.

Jacen

Santar said:

Shouldn't punish people for doing well at something.

This change is pretty much the exact opposite of what should be done. This game's punishment for death is already basically irrelevant. Xp loss isn't even really a thing as is, and more changes towards leniency would just compound that problem.

Wouldn't you rather have some other system to show your dominance as a PKer? A system that distinguishes you as a PKer? There was a lot of hate in the other threat about how people shouldn't care about xp, but now you wanna hold fast to your own xp.

 I get it, I totally do, and I totally agree that winners should be rewarded. Why don't we split PK experience from other experience ( I think this is what Imperian did ) so that we can deal with xp loss from each situation separately, and we can have a RANKINGS that shows your PK xp ranking?

Atalkez

I'm currently in what I call the dead zone of bashing. Each death is 7-12% loss depending on burst/last death. It takes me 3 hours or so of hunting to make up for that one death. Sure I could stop PvP, and quit Mark but that's why I play the game, so stopping those to hunt just isn't fun to me.

I personally don't mind XP loss (see: still sub80) but I can see how it will be daunting for some people. It would be cool to see a PK rankings type setup.  I don't think it is far off base to separate the experience pools, and the idea of killing artiepiles for crazy XP is awesome. If 1 kill can make up for 5 deaths I'd wager we would see a lot more people willing to throw themselves into the fray.

Eld

Athelas said:

All of this is based on the assumption that people issue due to them loosing XP.

I have issued exactly twice in all the time I've ever played Achaea. Both those times were because the offender chose to do PK for the sake of gaining XP, rather than having RP reason for killing.

All these discussions about issues would have so much higher signal-to-noise if people stopped trying to make sweeping generalisations based on their personal issue histories. That said, I agree that the idea in the OP is unlikely to have much of an effect on rates of PK-related issues, but that seems to be pretty tangential to the main point (making PvP more appealing by reducing the extent to which it's likely to set you back in the mostly unrelated PvE side of the game).

Dragon does pose something of a problem for the idea of separating PvP and PvE xp entirely, though; it's a pretty significant bonus in both areas, and tying it entirely to one or the other doesn't seem to make sense. Could do something like have it be a reward for reaching either bashing level 99 or pk level 99, though.

Aepas said:

Siduri said:

Anyway, someone who's making apt use of his artefacts most likely has this reflected in his KDR anyway.
Just thinking out loud.

This is likely true, which is another good reason that arties shouldn't directly relate to xp loss in this formula.

If it were just based on escrow, there would also be the problem of pk-irrelevant artefacts, and artefacts that don't get calculated in escrow for whatever reason (for example, blademaster bands only get included in escrow when they're not attached to a sword, which is rather rare in practice). Plenty of other reasons for them not to be directly factored in, anyway.

Bluef

Athelas said:

I feel like an ass at the moment, having just realized that Jhui might be getting a mail for every one of those tags.

Jhui, If that is the case, please accept my apology. I really did not mean for you to get spammed.

Don't feel bad. @Stuneree‌ can make him a new Word Cloud of his forum mentions from just that one post!  

Austere

@eld Blademaster bands not being counted sounds like a bug.  Tried submitting one yet? 

Sobriquet

I think part of it is the "boring grind" of having to go through and reclaim the XP you've lost, but only if the XP means something. I've noticed that on Sobby, dying doesn't bother me at all because I'm not going to lose Dragon anytime soon, and there is nothing else to need XP for.

On my Naga, I hunted for an hour to get 10% at level 77, only to lose near 30% from a Jhui raid and got so pissed off I rage quit and went to bed. Why? not because I died or was in a raid, but because my goal of reaching level 80 had taken a knock and I know I now have to go through my non-automated Genji bashing tedium to get it all back.

Sod all this about XP calculations, just make it so the "No Food and Drink Required" stage is a lot lower than 80. Say, 60 or something. 

Bukariin

Yeah, I'm at the stage on my alt where I blow through a whole bar of endurance and then spend 20-30 minutes sleeping for 25% of a level.  I don't want to PVP outside arenas because the faster I get to 80 the faster I get a third major trait, and then maybe I'll get the health sipping trait and be able to blaze up expees fast enough to die daily and not care.

I feel like this point should come a lot earlier, like exp loss should peak at level 60.

Suladan

Eld said:

Tecton said:

Eld said:

The general idea is fine, but probably hard to get the balance right. I feel like a lot of the complaints about xp loss from PK could be mitigated be just adjusting how xp loss scales with level. There's a range of levels in roughly the mid-late 70s to early 80s where the xp loss from one death seems to be disproportionate to the amount of work required to regain it. Get up into the 90s and you're getting to where it's annoying but not as big a deal, and by dragon, one death is pretty insignificant. It doesn't seem like it should be too hard to adjust the curve so that the time required to make up the xp loss from a death by level-appropriate bashing is roughly constant, which seems like it'd help a fair amount.

Of course, there's always the possibility that making that adjustment and balancing it to keep level inflation (for lack of a better term) in check, you'd just end up a much broader range of people complaining about xp loss, but it seems like investigating the simpler solution first would be worthwhile.

This is already the case, we just have an upper cap on how much experience you can lose, which is why a dragon will feel a death less, since that upper cap is a smaller percentage of their overall pool.

I'm aware that there's a curve and a cap. What I meant to suggest there was to adjust the parameters (the xp loss/level or the cap or both) so that a level 80 doesn't feel a death so much more than a dragon. My impression is that the amount of time it takes a dragon to make up one death's worth of xp loss is much less than what it would take someone at level 80. Am I wrong on that?

It feels like more at level 80 because the percentage to your next level changes like 6%. At Dragon it goes down a fraction of a percent, so it feels like practically nothing. 

On the flip side, you could hunt for an hour at 80 and move 10+% to next level. At Dragon you hunt for an hour and you get 1%. Also, people who made it to Dragon have been grooved into not expecting xp to change much when they hunt, so they see a 5% gain after hunting for a day and they're happy. If somebody at 80 spent a whole day hunting and moved 5% they'd be seriously exasperated. 

However you look at it, making up the xp for a death has pretty uniformly taken me about 20 min of hunting no matter what level I was.

Suladan

Also, don't think issues are primarily xp based. They're most likely written by insecure people who have no friends so can't go whine to anybody but the admin because the admin has no choice but to listen (they think).

In all examples I've seen/heard of issues, the person didn't really try to RP it or handle in game. Something (usually) fucked up happened to them and rather than deal with it they immediately decide mommy or daddy should come and handle it all for them.

Eld

Suladan said:

Also, don't think issues are primarily xp based. They're most likely written by insecure people who have no friends so can't go whine to anybody but the admin because the admin has no choice but to listen (they think).

In all examples I've seen/heard of issues, the person didn't really try to RP it or handle in game. Something (usually) fucked up happened to them and rather than deal with it they immediately decide mommy or daddy should come and handle it all for them.

People are also much more likely to share details of issues that they feel are unwarranted, which will tend to skew your view of the "average" issue toward the unjustified/"frivolous" end of things. One of many reasons that the rule against discussing issues is a good idea.

Shibumi

Just a question from a midbie. What about stopping the XP loss at 80 lvl when doing PVP?

a) As a newbie you have to bash until 80 to get rid of the food and drinking thing. So you are committed to grinding as hell.

b) After that, you are seriously committed to the game, and from an IRE perspective you would probably stick around and buy artefacts and such. At this point you might be interested to start PvP, but you fear to get back to previous level, while your aim at this juncture would be to bash to Dragon and learn combat, without dramatic consequences.

One problem with the current system is that when you reach 80 lvl either you bash to dragon either you do PVP, I think. But if you bash to Dragon only, you are not contributing much to a fast and live interaction of the game, which is by far the fun part of the game.

I don't know, just a thought I had. Please do not hit hard on me!


P.S. Clearly, I am 80 lvl....

 

Accipiter

Bashing goes so much faster at level 100 than it does at level 80 though. At 80 you have 16% crit rate according to help artefacts offensive, at level 100 I was hitting close on 40% (albiet with +6% from the pendant). So even if they lose exactly the same amount of xp, the time it takes a higher level person to regain the xp is less than the time it takes a lower level person. This will be true no matter where you put the cap though, unless it is at 102 where you stop getting crit increases.

Eld

Accipiter said:

Bashing goes so much faster at level 100 than it does at level 80 though. At 80 you have 16% crit rate according to help artefacts offensive, at level 100 I was hitting close on 40% (albiet with +6% from the pendant). So even if they lose exactly the same amount of xp, the time it takes a higher level person to regain the xp is less than the time it takes a lower level person. This will be true no matter where you put the cap though, unless it is at 102 where you stop getting crit increases.

Level 100 should have 40.5% base with no bonuses - if you're only barely hitting 40 with a lvl 3 pendant, something's wrong.

Bluef

Eld said:

Accipiter said:

Bashing goes so much faster at level 100 than it does at level 80 though. At 80 you have 16% crit rate according to help artefacts offensive, at level 100 I was hitting close on 40% (albiet with +6% from the pendant). So even if they lose exactly the same amount of xp, the time it takes a higher level person to regain the xp is less than the time it takes a lower level person. This will be true no matter where you put the cap though, unless it is at 102 where you stop getting crit increases.

Level 100 should have 40.5% base with no bonuses - if you're only barely hitting 40 with a lvl 3 pendant, something's wrong.

Can you explain this a bit more @Eld? For example, I have a 42.5% crit rate. I'm level 101. I have a level-2 pendant. Does this mean that the level-2 pendant is only only adding 2.5% and if so..why the hell did I pay all those credits for it?  

Achimrst

Bluef said:

Eld said:

Accipiter said:

Bashing goes so much faster at level 100 than it does at level 80 though. At 80 you have 16% crit rate according to help artefacts offensive, at level 100 I was hitting close on 40% (albiet with +6% from the pendant). So even if they lose exactly the same amount of xp, the time it takes a higher level person to regain the xp is less than the time it takes a lower level person. This will be true no matter where you put the cap though, unless it is at 102 where you stop getting crit increases.

Level 100 should have 40.5% base with no bonuses - if you're only barely hitting 40 with a lvl 3 pendant, something's wrong.

Can you explain this a bit more @Eld? For example, I have a 42.5% crit rate. I'm level 101. I have a level-2 pendant. Does this mean that the level-2 pendant is only only adding 2.5% and if so..why the hell do I did I pay all those credits for it?  

Waste of credits, should have gotten something useful in combat

Sena

Bluef said:

For example, I have a 42.5% crit rate. I'm level 101. I have a level-2 pendant. Does this mean that the level-2 pendant is only only adding 2.5% and if so..why the hell did I pay all those credits for it?

How many attacks is that crit rate taken from? If it's only 1000 attacks for example, it wouldn't be surprising if you got 425 crits instead of the expected 445. Even over 10k attacks it could just be bad luck, though it's less likely then. It's also pretty common for crit counter scripts to count bashing attacks used against adventurers, falcons, mounts, etc., even though those things are immune to criticals, so that might be bringing your calculated crit rate down slightly.

Eld

Bluef said:

Eld said:

Accipiter said:

Bashing goes so much faster at level 100 than it does at level 80 though. At 80 you have 16% crit rate according to help artefacts offensive, at level 100 I was hitting close on 40% (albiet with +6% from the pendant). So even if they lose exactly the same amount of xp, the time it takes a higher level person to regain the xp is less than the time it takes a lower level person. This will be true no matter where you put the cap though, unless it is at 102 where you stop getting crit increases.

Level 100 should have 40.5% base with no bonuses - if you're only barely hitting 40 with a lvl 3 pendant, something's wrong.

Can you explain this a bit more @Eld? For example, I have a 42.5% crit rate. I'm level 101. I have a level-2 pendant. Does this mean that the level-2 pendant is only only adding 2.5% and if so..why the hell did I pay all those credits for it?  

Base crit rate is ((level-25)/100)^3, capped at level 99. So from 99 up, the base is 40.5. With a level two pendant and no other bonuses, you should be getting 44.5, but as @Sena points out, it's pretty common to measure a somewhat lower rate because of uncrittable stuff, and even without that, you need to count for quite a while to get the precision down to the level of being able to confidently say anything about differences smaller than 1% or so. The reason I was making a stronger statement about Accipiter's case is that the discrepancy was significantly larger, to where I doubt it could be accounted for simply by uncrittables and bad luck.

Eld

Bleh, edit window ran out before I hit save.

It's worth noting that in addition to adventurers, mounts, and falcons, there are some miscellaneous denizens that are immune to crits, including all honours mobs, gohlbrorns in LHG, watch spiders in Istarion, and the septacean in the Gulf of Nilakantha, so if you hunt any of those a lot, it might be a noticeable effect. 

All that said, if your rate is based off of more than 10k hits or so, I think being off by 2% would be pretty surprising - not out of the question for a string of bad luck, but probably worth an ISSUE ME or BUG to check if the pendant's bugged. It has been known to happen for artefact upgrades to go wonky and have the appearance change appropriately but the effect stay the same; that happened to me when I upgraded my band to level 3, and I think Achilles said it happened to him with a bow.

Bluef

Sena said:

Bluef said:

For example, I have a 42.5% crit rate. I'm level 101. I have a level-2 pendant. Does this mean that the level-2 pendant is only only adding 2.5% and if so..why the hell did I pay all those credits for it?

How many attacks is that crit rate taken from? If it's only 1000 attacks for example, it wouldn't be surprising if you got 425 crits instead of the expected 445. Even over 10k attacks it could just be bad luck, though it's less likely then. It's also pretty common for crit counter scripts to count bashing attacks used against adventurers, falcons, mounts, etc., even though those things are immune to criticals, so that might be bringing your calculated crit rate down slightly.

It's cumulative of every crit I've gotten since I became dragon pretty much. I've reset the counter a few times in the last RL year (maybe twice or three times at the most). It has always ended back up at 42.5% anyway. I don't think I really kill things that wouldn't give crits regularly enough for it to matter (like once every very blue moon, which is like once every six RL months I'd guess). I guess I'll re-set one more time, double check it after a solid couple weeks of hunting or so and then issue myself to see if my artefact is bugged somehow. Thanks for this info. Good stuff, @Eld‌. 

Eld

Honestly, if it's based on a decent chunk of 2 dragon levels and you don't do a lot of attacking of crit-immune stuff, I'd just go ahead and ask to have it checked. My impression is that checking whether an artefact is functioning as the proper level doesn't take too much time/effort, and if it somehow is, you can go ahead and start collecting more data in the meantime. If it is bugged, no call to spend any longer than necessary with a weaker pendant than you paid for.