Dex

Razha

Just a quick question but how does dex factor in weapon speed? Also, what are the diminishing returns like and is there a hard cap?

Sena

It has no effect on weapon speed, unless you're a serpent in which case it affects dstab, garrote, and flay. If you're not a serpent, dexterity is only used for dodging, nothing else.

For dstab, it's -0.1s balance per point of dex over 13, capped at -0.7s (artefact dirks also reduce balance by 0.2s per level, and count towards that cap, and level 3 dirks increase the cap to 0.8s).

For garrote, it seems to be a 6% or 7% (garrotes slower than a certain speed get 7%, otherwise 6%) balance reduction per point above 12, but I'm not 100% certain of how it works, and don't know if there's a cap. There don't seem to be diminishing returns, but it's hard to tell since you can't get exact balance numbers.

Flay is only slightly influenced by dexterity, other than that I don't know the details.

Bukariin

Are you positive Dex doesn't also influence balance on things like Fashioning?

Razha

That's what I'm wondering, dex for anyone who isn't a serpent.

Sena

Aside from the various serpent stuff (garrote, backstab, flay, phase, dstab, pickpocket), and possibly daegger hunt for apostates (the ab file mentions dexterity influencing speed, but Sabiru said once that it actually doesn't and the ab file is outdated), I'm 99.9% certain that dexterity is only used for dodging. It definitely doesn't affect fashion or weapon attacks.

Bluef

No, it doesn't impact fashioning at all (or cursing) or anything shaman-related. I just switched from full DEX to a CON/INT character make up and it made no difference. Perhaps the future re-work will mean a switch to something like this (and I'd expect they'd offer a free reincarnation/trait reset if it did) but right now DEX is only for dodging or as @Sena describes above. 

Ernam

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Was mentioned before with classes like Blademaster (Aka classes that don't really use any stat) to have dex bonuses.

Ernam

Would be interesting to see how it'd impact the game if dex impacted balance time, even if only marginally.  Of course it'd be an upgrade to some people, but only if they sacrificed their main stat.  Would actually require people to "balance" their stats instead of min-maxing their classes mainstat.

Not actually suggesting that, but it sure would be interesting to see how it worked out.

Razha

How does it effect blademasters?

Sena

Razha said:

How does it effect blademasters?

It was mentioned as a possible change in the future, it currently doesn't do anything special for blademasters.

Caladbolg

Ernam said:

Would be interesting to see how it'd impact the game if dex impacted balance time, even if only marginally.  Of course it'd be an upgrade to some people, but only if they sacrificed their main stat.  Would actually require people to "balance" their stats instead of min-maxing their classes mainstat.

Not actually suggesting that, but it sure would be interesting to see how it worked out.

Wouldn't really pan out imo since with the current races it's pretty easy with the +3 artifacts to min/max that. sacrificing a little damage for more speed isn't typically ever a bad thing unless it comes to finisher combos.

Ernam

I agree, it's just hard to think of a way to make Dex relevant without actually making it so that using Dex actually improves people's combat.

Razha

No effect on bashing at all?

Ernam

None.  (except, as was mentioned, for Garrote)

Sena

Unless you can find a denizen with dodgeable attacks (which apparently exist, though I don't know where).

Jovolo

She means dodgeable player-side. I've never seen it personally.

Bluef

Ernam said:

I agree, it's just hard to think of a way to make Dex relevant without actually making it so that using Dex actually improves people's combat.

Max Dex worked really well for Bluef for a very long time - not because it impacted her shaman abilities but because it made her hard as hell for some classes to hit. That definitely improved my chances of surviving combat against some people somewhat (Kaie literally couldn't test things on me because I'd dodge or parry every thing he threw). I'm actually a bit worried now that I don't have that and need instead to tank things with only 300 more health added overall, but bashing-wise the change to Con/Int was definitely better for Bluef.

Ernam

Nobody is saying Dex is pointless.  Just saying that it's by far less valuable than any other stat.  Other than serpents, this is the reason why literally everyone in the game min-maxes away from it (in favor of other, better stats).  Sure, having Dex is good, however having literally anything else is better.  Is this necessarily a problem?  Not really - but I think it'd make the "stat" game a lot more interesting if people actually had to weigh pros and cons of stats, instead of just automatically min-maxing their classes mainstat and calling it a day.  Heck, even Int is better than Dex, for non-Int classes, purely because additional mana and higher max willpower is in general far more valuable than dodging, particularly since you can only (significantly) dodge about a third of the classes PVP abilities.

Razha said:

Just a quick question but how does dex factor in weapon speed? Also, what are the diminishing returns like and is there a hard cap?

I just noticed your question about dim. returns.  This is from Sena, ages ago: (it works the same as strength and int)

13: 6.54%
14: 12.20%
15: 17.57%
16: 22.77%
17: 27.83%
18: 32.80%
19: 37.68%
20: 42.49%
21: 47.24%
22: 51.94%
23: 56.59%
24: 61.20%
25: 65.77%

Sena

The diminishing returns are only on damage (and thus only strength/int), dodging/health/endurance/mana/willpower from stats don't have diminishing returns.

Razha

Uh, just curious but then what is the percents for dex/con? Also, am I reading that chart right 12=0% base damage, 13=+6.54%, etc.

Bukariin

I believe CON adds a flat amount of hitpoints per level. 

Sena

Yes, base stats are 12, so at 12 strength your damage won't have any bonus or penalty, above 12 you get increased damage, and below 12 you get reduced damage.

The formula for health is (3*Con+4)*Level+300, reduced by 20 per level above level 100. Endurance is (15*Con+20)*Level+400. Mana and willpower are the same as health and endurance, just with int instead of con.

Dexterity is more complicated. I can't really give a formula for it, because I don't know all the details. But each point of dexterity adds a flat amount of "avoidance points" (5000 unless it's been changed, but that information is useless without an actual formula), which are used in combination with the attacker's accuracy to calculate your chance to dodge.

Florentino

Making another stat relevant would further increase the disparity between people who can afford /want to pay to get +3 stat artefacts and those who can't/won't. Part of why monks are really good is they scale really well with artefacts because both the STR and INT trees of artefacts help them out greatly, and obviously the CON/tanking tree helps everyone.

Jarrel

Higher dexterity gives minor damage mitigation if I remember right combined with trans avoidance but it's been years since I tested.

Jovolo

It doesn't directly mitigate, just additionally increases chance to dodge and so makes it more likely to avoid the damage. Trans avoidance itself is something like a 12.5% mitigation of physical damage.

Ernam

Ernam said:

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Just as a recap, since (almost) everyone disagreed with this.

It's completely true.

I'm not saying that Dex is "worthless", I'm saying that it's the worst stat worth having, unless you're a serpent.  That much is undeniable.

Bluef

Ernam said:

Ernam said:

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Just as a recap, since (almost) everyone disagreed with this.

It's completely true.

I'm not saying that Dex is "worthless", I'm saying that it's the worst stat worth having, unless you're a serpent.  That much is undeniable.

I think that is a class-dependent opinion. What would more Strength give me as a shaman. Nothing. More dex would give me an increased chance to avoid getting hit, which shaman need. 

Austere

Bluef said:

Ernam said:

Ernam said:

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Just as a recap, since (almost) everyone disagreed with this.

It's completely true.

I'm not saying that Dex is "worthless", I'm saying that it's the worst stat worth having, unless you're a serpent.  That much is undeniable.

I think that is a class-dependent opinion. What would more Strength give me as a shaman. Nothing. More dex would give me an increased chance to avoid getting hit, which shaman need. 

Interesting you brought this up,  I read somewhere on the old forums that strength increased Vodun throttle.  Personally,   I always assumed it was intelligence.  Any idea if this is still true?  @Sena‌ ?

Achimrst

Austere said:

Bluef said:

Ernam said:

Ernam said:

All in all, dex is a pretty useless stat, compared to everything else.  It slightly increases dodging, which against many classes, doesn't actually mean anything at all.  I'd certainly like to see some way of making Dex relevant to non-serpent some day.  What's the point of having a stat that virtually everyone in the game minimizes in favor of strength or int (or even con).

Just as a recap, since (almost) everyone disagreed with this.

It's completely true.

I'm not saying that Dex is "worthless", I'm saying that it's the worst stat worth having, unless you're a serpent.  That much is undeniable.

I think that is a class-dependent opinion. What would more Strength give me as a shaman. Nothing. More dex would give me an increased chance to avoid getting hit, which shaman need. 

Interesting you brought this up,  I read somewhere on the old forums that strength increased Vodun throttle.  Personally,   I always assumed it was intelligence.  Any idea if this is still true?  @Sena‌ ?

I actually tested this with Andraste recently and intelligence did increase it. Not sure about strength though.

Sena

Achimrst said:

Austere said:

Interesting you brought this up,  I read somewhere on the old forums that strength increased Vodun throttle.  Personally,   I always assumed it was intelligence.  Any idea if this is still true?  @Sena‌ ?

I actually tested this with Andraste recently and intelligence did increase it. Not sure about strength though.

When I was a shaman (in 2009), it was increased by strength and not increased by intelligence. That could have been a bug though, and I know that throttle's damage formula was reworked a while after I changed class.