Current State of Theft

Jarrod

The only way that you could keep the good parts without the bad parts would be a really OOC seeming mechanic.

You apply to the administration for a 'theft license'. When you get one, you get access to old action, with all its OP theft potential. At that point, whenever you steal, you submit a report with who it was and what you took. Admin could then make sure you weren't exclusively targeting new players, and any new players you targeted weren't hit too hard. If you became griefy you lost your theft license and couldn't apply for another for a long time period.

It would have to be extremely regulated. Much simpler and reasonable to have theft the way it is now.

Alaskar

Or some sort of thieves clan (not guild) in which players could enforce such things and police their own.  I hate theft,  but love the idea of player organizations like that. 

Greys

Eh, just never thought the potential for conflict was worth the cost to the game.  Reminds me of the guildhalls.  People constantly try to break into them so people stopped using them.

Still have not seen any suggestions of what the victims could do to get back as sorry killing the thief is not a satisfying interaction.

Nim

An Ankh-Morpork style thieves guild gets all of my approval.

Alaskar

Could always make stolen items drop on death. And perhaps if carrying a stolen item then a higher experience penalty for player related death.  Discourages theat and let's victim get even via mark.  

But theft should -not- be easier.  You could even make it so that there's an increased chance of success by shadowing a player for a number of rooms,  etc. 

I like the idea of theft and people having to be creative and work to succeed.  Honestly,  if there's a minimum age to be a victim,  I'm sure a happy medium could be found.  

Then I could open a theft-insurance business! 

Jarrod

There is no way to regulate stolen items without extreme levels of admin oversight.

Alaskar

I'm no coder. I just imagine the elder scrolls theft mechanics. Meh, just a thought.

Strata

I'm quite tired of hearing "but there will be griefers" in regard to theft. And I know some will say "but you don't know what old theft was like." -- Strata hasn't been around that long, but as a player I do remember.

The current state of theft could be relaxed quite a bit (relaxed as in make theft easier give thieves a better pay-day) and it still wouldn't be even close to old theft.

Let me just say this: If you're a victim of theft and you're incapable of responding to it IC but instead you have to rely on admins and say someone griefed you, there is no place for you in Achaea. You are among the ranks of the bitchasses who would be better off playing minecraft solo.

Screw "zero-sum balancing"., @Daeir. People need to crawl out of their little "but I'll be griefed" cocoons or stop playing the fucking game entirely. It's really simple.

Naverre

The problem with that line of argument is the idea that the small amount of theft that happens in Achaea would far outweigh the enjoyable factors, rendering it unplayable. For a counterargument, take a look at EVE Online. The amount of theft, ganking, scamming, and safari-ing is insane, yet they're not lacking for players. Ask the victims, and they'll say they don't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean the rest of the game isn't worth playing.

I highly doubt that a boost to theft, within reason, would seriously drive away 'all but 10' players.

Stuneree

Daeir said:

Sarapis said that something like 90% of all new players who were stolen from (or some other obscenely high number) logged out and never played again. 

I should explain: it's not existing players that concern me. Theft in any iteration that is "prominent" is devastating to the uninitiated, especially players who are just starting to get into the game. Most thieves will prey on opportune targets - which are normally low level players. Thus, any mechanical boosts to theft adversely impact lower level players the most.

The game dies if we do not get new people in to keep things rolling.

This is exactly it... There should definitely be maybe an age or level limit for theft.

If I started off and immediately got stolen from, the FIRST thing I would think is, "Wow, this game has absolutely no administration or rules". Especially seeing as a lot of people who try games like this out don't understand open-world, they are more used to way larger games but with way more restrictions, like WoW. They probably want to feel SOMEWHAT protected while they're still learning.

Sena

Theft has pretty much always been limited to level 30 and above, stealing from people lower than that is a good way to get shrubbed. The problem is that newbies can (and often do) reach level 30 long before learning about theft and how to defend against it. They're far from experienced by that point.

Strata

Sena said:

Theft has pretty much always been limited to level 30 and above, stealing from people lower than that is a good way to get shrubbed. The problem is that newbies can (and often do) reach level 30 long before learning about theft and how to defend against it. They're far from experienced by that point.

Simple solution. The level 30 limit is systematically imposed. I don't think it's even possible to steal from someone level 30 or below.

They could increase the theft payouts and then raise that level to 60. Then change the APPRAISE to say something like "You casually glance at Newissuer and realize she has very few things of value." instead of an item list. Shimmering orbs have no effect on anyone level 60 or below. This would tell any thief that they're not at least level 60 and will mechanically be unable to pickpocket them.

If you haven't learned anti-theft and established your character enough to be able to react to being stolen from like an adult instead of crying grief, issuing, and quitting - then maybe it's time to stop power-leveling people for more raid defence fodder/group bashing scapegoats and look at where the real problem is. Someone must be telling these new folks the wrong things.

It would be nice if the older crowd said things like "If you get stolen from, let us know and we'll go kill the thief." or "This is how you hire an assassin to kill them." or "Maybe you should try to negotiate with them and then kill them." to novices instead of "HELP ISSUE. Use this whenever someone wrongs you, you lose, or you're not having fun."

Alaskar

So when a dragon robs a lvl 50 or 60 character,  how should said victim respond?  They can't kill them.  It's doubtful they'll ever be in a political position that will affect the thief.  That leaves hiring.  They just lost 6k gold,  now they need to spend 5k for a chance of having the contract successfully completed. Now they're out 11K and the thief got a slap on the wrist. No thanks. 

Jules

Indeed, emphasis on "chance".  Here's an idea.  Have separate theft infamy and have thieves show up on "Thiefwho" or "Infamywho"    And when a contract is completed on them the killer gets to loot a specified item or items from the thief's corpse/forcibly remove them from any secure stash location.  Then maybe we can talk.  I kid, but people want actual recourse with a reasonable chance of success in these situations.

Jarrod

There is no plausible way to implement 'item return' to theft victims in any scenario that doesn't screw over someone who isn't the thief, if the thief is worth anything. If item theft was prevalent and I steal something valuable, I sell it fast for a quick profit. Hypothetically, I get killed. I don't have the item, and you can't accurately assign a gold value to things via the system as a return. Even if you somehow could, what if I kept no gold on me and donated it all to an organization, or kept it on me in supplies? What would the killer get to return? The item from the person I sold it to? One of my artefacts that, on top of making it exceptionally hard to kill me if I don't want to die, will reset to me?

There's no scenario where an automated theft system doesn't 100% work for the thief and not work for the victim. The 'good' parts of theft have always been the interactions from those who work to create them, not in the fact that you just lost a lot of value. I would much rather admin be working on other content than monitoring thieves stealing stuff.

Datrius

I think Datrius had a pretty awesome first experience when it came to his theft, actually. Someone stole the letter of a project he'd been working on for the Archdragon. He informed the house and in moments the Thief was up to the wazoo in Ashurans. Then @Kross (Right, Kross?), got him pinned down and intimidated the letter out of him.

Daslin

I miss the hell outta old theft.

Geishard

The hiring argument has never actually been a good argument, in my opinion. I was here during Tenebrus' heyday and I can remember huge groups of people trying to kill him and him for the most part not even caring, because he'd either escape (which was the majority of the time, from what I could tell), or he'd die and still have the items he stole.

Strata

As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

Jarrod

Theft RP is a two way street, and it's not purely on the victim to pursue more than property loss from the interaction.

One of the Cyrenian shops I stole from, I contacted the guy afterwards and asked if he wanted to buy his stuff back, arranged a meet in a neutral location (inside Hashan), and sold him his stuff back (he brought some backup toughs to the meeting). He actually thanked me afterwards, which was odd, but I think the after interaction made it less of a terrible loss for him. For my part, selling all his stuff individually might have been a little more gold, but getting rid of it all in one shot was great.

Nim

Strata said:

As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

No, they just decide Achaea is an awful game and go play something else instead, and IRE loses a potential customer.

Furthermore, your argument suggests that theft had an actual place in Achaea, as if Achaea were somehow hardcore.

It also suggests that the admins nerfed it due to complaints or whining. They, according to what's been said, nerfed it after researching the matter and getting actual statistics.

I wouldn't even respond to this, but it's getting to the point where every other thing you post is whining about other people supposedly crying hard enough to ruin the game. It's like, look in a mirror.

Cahin

Strata said:

As long as people wrongfully have the mindset that theft of any kind is a form of griefing instead of another opportunity for role-play, victims of theft will continue to bypass all forms of in-character resolution and instantly react OOCly. Yes, it sucks to have 6k gold stolen from you - especially when hiring would cost you nearly that much more. Therefore, lower level people who are victims of theft essentially have no way to get justice - and that's because instead of getting creative or having proper anti-theft measures in the first place, they decide to jump on the OOC-theft-is-griefing bandwagon to either affect more nerfs or get theft removed from the game entirely. Once theft is gone, those same people will become proponents of getting other forms of "wrongs" removed from the game - like PK. Those people are not role-playing whatsoever, they're just outright pissed off people who are playing the wrong game.

If theft is just an outlet for roleplay, why does it need to be buffed? It is already possible to roleplay a thief.  Why does a roleplay mechanic need to be more profitable?

Sure, you can't steal things of high value easily anymore, but why should you feel entitled to be able to do that in the first place?  I feel like people often use the guise of roleplay when arguing about theft returning to its previous form.  I agree that theft isn't griefing. Griefing is done to attempt to damage another players experience. I have a hard time believing theft is done for any other reason than personal gain. At least to the extent in which the entire playerbase could be trusted with it. Perhaps that's the pessimist in me.

I'm all for more flavor RP for the game, but I'm equally for balanced conflict in which the risk is of the same magnitude as the reward.

Datrius

I'm kinda enjoying this thing the last few days where if I steal something personal/vital to them, I make contact in a way that allows me to remain anonymous and then  we continue to negotiate through either someone acting as a fence or a series of dead drops and secret deliveries. It's actually pretty fun.

Stuneree

Alaskar said:

So when a dragon robs a lvl 50 or 60 character,  how should said victim respond?  They can't kill them.  It's doubtful they'll ever be in a political position that will affect the thief.  That leaves hiring.  They just lost 6k gold,  now they need to spend 5k for a chance of having the contract successfully completed. Now they're out 11K and the thief got a slap on the wrist. No thanks. 

Dying in Achaea is a slap on the wrist? I consider it more of a bathroom break.

Eloru

It's kind of messed up that the people (newbies and returning old players) who are most likely to quit over theft are the ones easiest to steal from due to lack of anti-theft triggers. Theft from a more established person is obviously more lucrative if you can get around their anti-theft, and they'll likely keep playing even if they lose 200k, while a newbie might quit over 2k gold. Maybe you could put more emphasis on picking the richer targets by increasing the chances of successful theft the more items a person is holding, while decreasing them if they are holding very little, since fewer items would be easier to keep an eye on. Or if they had less than 10k gold the max you could pickpocket at a time would be 10-20% of the total rather than 5k. And if they have like a million gold in their packs, some should fall out while you rifle through their pockets.  

Jovolo

Wasn't one of the main reasons theft was changed due to how innately one-sided the conflict is, and how the onus is entirely on the serpent to actually utilise any roleplay potential and/or negotiate a return of the item? A momentary lapse due to perhaps being logged in without anti-theft, disconnected, or just a simple mistake could leave someone down hundreds of thousands of gold, or without their one-of-a-kind personal items of very high sentimental value, etcetera. It was at all opt-in either, with everyone being fair game to any serpent at any time as soon as they hit level thirty. This created a host of problems with many people just quitting the game altogether.

So, what changed?

Theft is in a lucrative and reasonable position for both parties right now. 

Rip

  Theft is fine the way it is. 

  - I have been enjoying thievery in it's lighter form, it's not over the top and then it's not so lame that you can't get something interesting at times. (Keys, letters, journals, INFAMY!)

  I have made many new friends and enemies as a result from stealing, some people have even thanked me for robbing them.  (The role play is fine and I get exactly what I want from it, more reasons to RP and PK.)

  What some of you are referring too, during the Dark/Golden Age of Achaea is..."Stripping",  meaning, we would take EVERYTHING from you.

   Stripping people so they never play Achaea again is completely wrong, those were dark times, I remember and miss them.

  Now, I believe what made this so enjoyable for the thief was the vast amount of ways you could actually rob someone.  Which years later has been narrowed down to only a few commands.  Hence, no more stripping people of all their possessions.

  Most classes these days can force an action, so most classes could for all purposes be used as a thief.  

  Which is why we now have "Pickpocketing" as a skill so everyone can't forcible rob everyone (Strip them) any longer.

  There are a few ways to get bloody in Achaea, and stealing 3 worthless shards is a great way to go about it.  Robbing someone's hard earned 10k...please.  Stealing that journal you worked 50 years on...now that is a good time.

  Stealing = Some form of RP (hopefully) = Some form of PK (hopefully)

  *I believe what is the biggest problem is the sheer failure rate of pickpocketing a specific item (It's never worked for me).  I would be happy at 33% with all things considered.

  Once you actually start stealing in the New Age of Handle With Care (Those aren't gamers, they're customers), you will find it is actually quite fun and you will find people more then willing to have some form of interaction.

Strata

Rip said:

. . . Handle With Care (Those aren't gamers, they're customers), . . .

@Nim all I'm saying here is the "Current state of theft", as this thread is aptly titled, is not bad at all and I think the rules could be relaxed some more. Stealing isn't what causes people to quit playing. They leave because the rest of us neglect those people and they learn from a few of the more outspoken toxic individuals that all injustices done to them IG can be solved with a tap of the issue button. Or they simply rage so hard they quit and never come back.

Don't believe me? Build up a serpent and go around blatently pickpocketing (don't hide) people both big and small. Guarantee over 1/2 of the tells you get will be OOC/go f*k your mother/you're ruining this game/etc.

Greys

So... Strata you are saying that you know its something that pisses off the majority of the player base as players? Doesn't that already tell you how most people then feel about theft and want it?  My experiences with thieves were that they were assholes: one time had 4 of them together and when they got a key off me were spamming ROFL as fast as they could; the other stole a journal from a friend who just came back and demanded 120 credits for it.  I so agree with the point made earlier that if it s a roleplaying tool then the amount of gold that you make and damage you can inflict on the player should be limited as it is now.

Strata

Greys said:

So... Strata you are saying that you know its something that pisses off the majority of the player base as players? Doesn't that already tell you how most people then feel about theft and want it?  My experiences with thieves were that they were assholes: one time had 4 of them together and when they got a key off me were spamming ROFL as fast as they could; the other stole a journal from a friend who just came back and demanded 120 credits for it.  I so agree with the point made earlier that if it s a roleplaying tool then the amount of gold that you make and damage you can inflict on the player should be limited as it is now.

I'm not saying bring back old theft. I'm saying the payouts can be increased some and it still would never be close to old theft. There's also anti-theft... which anyone above level 30 should have but doesn't always. No excuse for @Greys since he is an established figure in the realms. No excuse for his friend either who "just came back".

This is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that I think the level should be increased from 30 to 60 so it gives more time for people to establish themselves, get more stuff worth stealing, and also learn and practice anti-theft. But it's a lose-lose situation when 90% of the player-base are alts and/or just getting powerleveled without actually getting to become immersed - then they're just thrown out to the wolves where they quit playing first time they get PK'd or stolen from. That's not the thieves' fault, it's the "mentors" and "elder players" who are just being lazy and dismissing everything with "Meh. Just issue them."