Young Serpents

Isaiah

I would like to discuss how serpent combat isn't even feasible without an Arte dirk. Dstab speed is far too slow for the speed of server side curing. I not sure how we would adjust this without making Arte dirks worthless. Even when you add in hypnosis which would require a much larger chain for someone with a dirk. This from what I have seen is a big turnoff / frustration piece for newer serpents and I feel it is rediculous that I have to say that they need a level 2 dirk 'even while specced Dex'. If anyone has any advice for a new serpent or has some correction point for what I just said please chime in.

Santar

Dstab speed is just fine. You don't need an artie dirk to fight well as a serpent.

Zii

Bear in mind: Fighting well =/= Victory

Santar

Zii said:

Bear in mind: Fighting well =/= Victory

Ok, I guess what I said wasn't clear enough.

You do not need an artie dirk to kill people that have optimal curing as a Serpent.

Isaiah

Santar said:

Zii said:

Bear in mind: Fighting well =/= Victory

Ok, I guess what I said wasn't clear enough.

You do not need an artie dirk to kill people that have optimal curing as a Serpent.

Grab a normal dirk and fight server side curing then tell me its viable. You cant stack fast enough to stick scytherus. I'll provide a log momentarily.

Santar

Just got on the test server with someone and found someone that was using standard server-side curing.

I set myself up to be dex spec with an unartied dirk. I made 2 macros, and 1 alias, and locked the person on the very first try with a simple dstab combo. I didn't even load my offense into the test-server client.

There's no reason at all to be blaming the class for your inability to lock someone. Unartied Serp is fine. Not as good as artied obviously, but it's completely acceptable.

Strata

Technically/mechanically it's all possible and therefore you're incorrect. Will you be able to lock someone who is using server-side curing in an actual fight without an artie dirk? No. Not unless they are a noob as in 100% bona-fide non-combatant noob.

If you do get an artefact dirk, expect pretty much the same situation when fighting any class that has additional active curing and/or passive curing in combination with server-side curing. It's still technically/mechanically possible to lock them.

Best aff class right now I think is bard. Afflicting impatience pretty much whenever you need is a huge advantage over hypnosis, which is much slower and needs to be more carefully timed (at which point your opponent is going to shield or fly or leave the room)

Santar

Actually, upon further inspection, the dstab speed at which I fight at -all the time- on my main character with my thoth's fang is the exact same speed as if you are dex specced. They're both about 2 seconds. I fight at top-tier level and consistently lock anyone who I fight with that speed. Same as unartied + dex specced speed.

Strata said:

Technically/mechanically it's all possible and therefore you're incorrect. Will you be able to lock someone who is using server-side curing in an actual fight without an artie dirk? No. Not unless they are a noob as in 100% bona-fide non-combatant noob.

If you do get an artefact dirk, expect pretty much the same situation when fighting any class that has additional active curing and/or passive curing in combination with server-side curing. It's still technically/mechanically possible to lock them.

Best aff class right now I think is bard. Afflicting impatience pretty much whenever you need is a huge advantage over hypnosis, which is much slower and needs to be more carefully timed (at which point your opponent is going to shield or fly or leave the room)

This is very wrong, as stated before. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to fight competitively with an unartied dirk with dex spec.

This is the same speed of stab artied people were using before the dstab dex buffs.

Santar

Strictly technically speaking, being just dex-specced is even better than having a Thoth, and not being dex-specced, since you also get increases in your other speeds like flays. 

The true fact of the matter is that affliction combat is complicated and most people fail to grasp it. It is not the fault of any mechanical piece of the class.

Strata

Santar said:

Actually, upon further inspection, the dstab speed at which I fight at -all the time- on my main character with my thoth's fang is the exact same speed as if you are dex specced. They're both about 2 seconds. I fight at top-tier level and consistently lock anyone who I fight with that speed. Same as unartied + dex specced speed.

Strata said:

Technically/mechanically it's all possible and therefore you're incorrect. Will you be able to lock someone who is using server-side curing in an actual fight without an artie dirk? No. Not unless they are a noob as in 100% bona-fide non-combatant noob.

This is very wrong, as stated before. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to fight competitively with an unartied dirk with dex spec.

This is the same speed of stab artied people were using before the dstab dex buffs.

Sure. You can easily lock people with a 2.5s dstab if they're on svo where you can abuse the way it cures scytherus and you can use some of the many illusions that work really well. With server-side curing you lose that edge - and while it's still mechanically possible to lock someone, good luck fighting in "top tier". I don't think you fully read what I said - "Will you be able to lock someone who is using server-side curing in an actual fight without an artie dirk? No. Not unless they are a noob as in 100% bona-fide non-combatant noob."

Santar

You're wrong, but I'm not going to engage in a circular argument. There's nothing wrong with Serpent's affliction ability.

Strata

Isaiah said:

I would like to discuss how serpent combat isn't even feasible without an Arte dirk. 

Santar said:

You're wrong, but I'm not going to engage in a circular argument. There's nothing wrong with Serpent's affliction ability.

I never said there was anything wrong with serpent's affliction ability. I said it was technically/mechanically possible to lock without arties. You should be able to deduce from that statement that I am trying to correct Isaiah when he said "serpent combat isn't even feasible without an Arte dirk" to "Yes it is - just not as feasible at the top tier."

Santar said:

Just got on the test server with someone and found someone that was using standard server-side curing.

I set myself up to be dex spec with an unartied dirk. I made 2 macros, and 1 alias, and locked the person on the very first try with a simple dstab combo. I didn't even load my offense into the test-server client.

There's no reason at all to be blaming the class for your inability to lock someone. Unartied Serp is fine. Not as good as artied obviously, but it's completely acceptable.

Go fight some of the "top-tier" guys using WunderSys with a regular dirk and let me know how that works out for ya. A test server crash dummy with default server-side priorities sounds to me like a "100% bona-fide non-comm noob" that is, of course, an easy lock.

Isaiah

Santar said:

Just got on the test server with someone and found someone that was using standard server-side curing.

I set myself up to be dex spec with an unartied dirk. I made 2 macros, and 1 alias, and locked the person on the very first try with a simple dstab combo. I didn't even load my offense into the test-server client.

There's no reason at all to be blaming the class for your inability to lock someone. Unartied Serp is fine. Not as good as artied obviously, but it's completely acceptable.

 As I figured Santar shows up thinking he knows everything... HAHA

Santar

Ok, don't get all ugly just because you messaged me IG for RL months as well as sent me repeated messages on the forums begging me to help you learn Serpent combat and I told you I didn't have the time or inclination to do so.

You made a thread purporting the idea that unartied Serpent isn't viable, and you're wrong. You know little/nothing of Serpent combat, clearly, yet you made a forum thread to whine that the class is broken.

Jovolo

Level 0, 16 Dex doublestab is around 2.1 seconds, right? What's wrong with that? That's the same as old buckawns spine doublestab. The only thing that's changed really are the: 16s darkshade kill, speed up of hypnosis, consistency increase of hypnosis affliction times, voyria blocking passive healing, antigen/immunity balance, pipe balance, gecko stripping sileris, flaying rebound/shield with a venom, expert diagnoser to verify an affliction every five seconds, reduction in lifevision's potency, bite being sped up... I might be forgetting something.

Illusion loss against server side doesn't outweigh that. Santar is pretty spot on ...

Strata

Jovolo said:

Level 0, 16 Dex doublestab is around 2.1 seconds, right? What's wrong with that? That's the same as old buckawns spine doublestab. The only thing that's changed really are the: 16s darkshade kill, speed up of hypnosis, consistency increase of hypnosis affliction times, voyria blocking passive healing, antigen/immunity balance, pipe balance, gecko stripping sileris, flaying rebound/shield with a venom, expert diagnoser to verify an affliction every five seconds, reduction in lifevision's potency, bite being sped up... I might be forgetting something.

Illusion loss against server side doesn't outweigh that. Santar is pretty spot on ...

Serpent is really in a great spot right now. I still think there are classes that need to have their curing functionality "turned down" a little bit in regard to their utilization of server-side curing, however. This is only my opinion based on what I've experienced through regular fighting and I am fully aware that the mechanics prove me wrong. Mechanics are only one aspect though.

Jovolo

Strata.

I agree with you.

*Implosions*

Terra

Hit me up IG if you need help (Xinna).

If you dstab at 2-2.1 secs, you can definitely lock.