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Allow High CRs / Higher CRs than a falcon's owner to sanctuary falcons

AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

I very often come across falcons that their owners forgot to Sanctuary before leaving Realms. Often, the falcon is not collared, and so is in substantial danger of starving or being permanently killed. I try to get a Knight class to send the bird to safety, but there's not always one available who fits the criteria. Currently, another's falcon can only be sanctuaried by a Knight of higher CR than the one that left the falcon, or a Knight who is in the same House and higher HR than the one that left the falcon.

I was hoping to propose that a CR6 of the same city be allowed to sanctuary a falcon that's been left, even if the CR6 is not of a Knightly class. If CR6 is too restrictive, either CR5 or CR6. People of this CR have presumably been in the city enough that they won't abuse this power or use it frivolously. The reasoning is that CR6 / CR5 and CR6 are sufficiently high up that they are assistants in the city leadership and can be trusted with this task. From the perspective of realism, while a person without the understanding of Falconry cannot have or command a falcon, this simply entails knowing one command, which should be of acceptable difficulty.

My friend proposed an alternative where the person attempting to Sanctuary the falcon merely be a higher CR than the Knight that left the falcon. I strongly disagree with this because some experienced Knights (including Sir/Dames) may have just joined the City as CR1s, and this would give a 22 year old CR2 power over their falcon, potentially creating problematic situations. But, I did want to throw it out there.

Thank you for reading my idea.

AntidasAepasAchimrstShirszaeBonkoViciousKazu
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Comments

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Falcons are smart birds.  They should just go home after they haven't been able to sense their owners for awhile. 

    TrillianaKresslackViciousTohran
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014

    @Antidas : 3rd parties already can. Other Knights can already do this, Knights in one's own house and city. A CR6 has often done more for the city than some of the Knights that have this ability.

    Houses are being taken apart and rebuilt, is it really so radical to change this one thing about them too?

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    It's usually very high ranking people who leave their falcons out, frankly.  I'm not sure why that is, but I finally realized sometime back (but embarassingly, not *that* far back) that I could just incorporate "falcon sanctuary" into my QQ alias... so whatever.

  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014

    @Jules : Collared falcons occasionally reset to the owner, and being unaware of the falcon in their inventory, the owner leaves Realms, and the Collared falcon drops on the ground. Reflexes automatically sending a falcon to Sanctuary often won't activate if you're actually holding the falcon. Since the collar costs 250 cr, it is more likely that experienced Knights have this happen than ones just starting out and who are presumably with fewer artefacts. I am guessing this is why you may have seen a number of high CR Knights' falcons having been left. To my understanding, the Houses are generally not as angry with collared falcons being left for this reason. I may be wrong, however.

    The bigger problem is with falcons that haven't been collared, because if that falcon starves or is killed, it's gone for good. That's why I think having the City leadership be able to take care of it would be good, even if the policy of the City then becomes to inform the Knight's omission of protocol to his or her superiors.

  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Mine's collared.  My comment was in response to Antidas, but I guess I need to add "drop falcon" to my alias.  I'm not against this idea at all, although it wouldn't be on my short list of priorities.  Unfortunately, no, houses aren't more forgiving if the falcon is collared though.  It's more about the rule than the intent of the rule.  Personally, whenever I see one, I always worry about how or whether to tell the person without seeming like a petty hall monitor...

    Aalm
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    If you have something precious, protect it. I don't need other people doing that for me.


    Once I fell asleep without forgetting to send my falcon home, and was cussing about it all day at work, and ran home as fast as I could to sanctuary it. Once again I'll counter the argument many people have of "Why should I have to worry about this kind of stuff" while I will say "I'm glad I have an emotional attachment to my character and his pets enough to worry about it at work."


    All in all, it's not hard at all to protect your falcon, so just do it.

    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    ShirszaeKresslackVicious
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Hey, I'm in the "no text pony left behind" camp, and that's just it.  It's people like Aalm and I who fret about the text ponies being left in a hot chariot with the windows rolled up, not the lolpker who names it "deadmule666".  

    Aalm
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    These falcons are annoying when left out and if we kill them in our city we get in trouble. Save the endangered falcon population and help them go home safely today.


    JulesVicious
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I sanctuary falcons left out in Ashtan unless they belong to visitors. I consider kicking those until they return to sanctuary because most should flee before they die.

    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    I sanctuary falcons left out in Ashtan unless they belong to visitors. I consider kicking those until they return to sanctuary because most should flee before they die.

    SHOULD flee being the word of the day there, we almost killed someone's falcon trying to get it to do that in Eleusis. It was down to like 10% and we were like....really?

  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Kyrra said:
    I sanctuary falcons left out in Ashtan unless they belong to visitors. I consider kicking those until they return to sanctuary because most should flee before they die.

    SHOULD flee being the word of the day there, we almost killed someone's falcon trying to get it to do that in Eleusis. It was down to like 10% and we were like....really?

    Flee range is between 10% and 30%. I've mine set to 30 just in case.

    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    clt yes

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    AchimrstNim
  • AalmAalm Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2014
    Cahin said:

    I wouldn't mind falcons just auto sanctuarying when their owner isn't connected to Achaea.  I'm all for consequence, but I'm more of a fan of consequence that follows willful action.  People are forgetful.  I'll admit that I have killed a few falcons and while I'm certain meaningful roleplay can come from it, it is generally fruitless.  I'll probably never play a knight character, so it is a nonissue for myself.  

    People have mentioned this is easy to handle with scripts.  With the current direction of the game, I could see hardcoding this as a good thing, imho the current direction being alleviation of the actions, responsibilities, and requirements of the player so they are able to more focus on the actions, responsibilities, and requirements of the character.

    @Cahin : Thank you. I would be fine with this, and Jules mentioned this as well. I just think the City handling it via leaders doing something would create more RP around the thing. But if it's a hassle and people think the falcons going auto-Sanctuary is good, I personally think that's fine too.

  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,649 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Wouldn't really be any more RP than getting reprimanded by different leaders, really. Also it doesn't make sense to me that any random CR6 should be able to know how to sanctuary a falcon if they don't have any training in Chivalry - I picture some Lord or Lady trying a bunch of different random whistles and sounding really odd while the falcon just stares blankly at it. A lot like how Serpents make fun of people who pretend like they know how to rattle without being a Serpent.

    "You called my mother a what?!"

    I am ambivalent about the whole falcons being left out issue, but I tend to generally be sympathetic to the possibility of dcing or falling asleep (given that I do both quite frequently). I find that @Cahin's solution would perhaps be the most elegant to appease both sides - no reason a falcon wouldn't get bored and go home if its owner wasn't there, and that way the offender avoids 'roleplay' that more often than not is just really an excuse for people to power trip (generalising, but still).

    If you like my stories, you can find them here:
    Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2 

    SynbiosJhaeli
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kyrra said:
    Achimrst said:
    Kyrra said:
    I sanctuary falcons left out in Ashtan unless they belong to visitors. I consider kicking those until they return to sanctuary because most should flee before they die.

    SHOULD flee being the word of the day there, we almost killed someone's falcon trying to get it to do that in Eleusis. It was down to like 10% and we were like....really?

    Flee range is between 10% and 30%. I've mine set to 30 just in case.

    You need to teach Eleusian Runewardens how to set their flee than.

  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Making falcons sanctuary automatically would be great... it's irritating to enforce falconry laws in a house, and I've seen so many more left out recently, it's just getting silly.



                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



    AchimrstKresslackJhaeli
  • BonkoBonko Member Posts: 692 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Katzchen said:

    Making falcons sanctuary automatically would be great... it's irritating to enforce falconry laws in a house, and I've seen so many more left out recently, it's just getting silly.

    As a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed killing your falcon when you left it out and were still HL of the Maldaathi. ;)


    AchimrstJulesKresslack
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bonko said:
    Katzchen said:

    Making falcons sanctuary automatically would be great... it's irritating to enforce falconry laws in a house, and I've seen so many more left out recently, it's just getting silly.

    As a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed killing your falcon when you left it out and were still HL of the Maldaathi. ;)

    Yes Bonko, yes.


    Bonko
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bonko said:
    Katzchen said:

    Making falcons sanctuary automatically would be great... it's irritating to enforce falconry laws in a house, and I've seen so many more left out recently, it's just getting silly.

    As a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed killing your falcon when you left it out and were still HL of the Maldaathi. ;)

    You're welcome for the entertainment then.



                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



    Bonko
  • TarazaTaraza Member Posts: 206 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    With the upcoming changing House conditions this may more viable. If you're in a House such as the Maldaathi with not many higher ranked House members around that can perform the action then yes it makes it more difficult (although shouldn't leave your falcon out. Sadly I still need to make that reflex!) 

    The biggest advice I have for knights who have falcons is to make a reflex on the line of qq and trigger it to use "Falcon sanctuary" that way your safe from normal exits. Although if you soulrip or something may want to give whoever a head's up that happened and it was beyond your control. 

    But yeah, city wide knights that are higher would be easier for those houses who have a much lower population would be easier to have the ability to sanctuary the falcon. 

    Good ideas @Aalm ;

    image



  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,737 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Unless it has been changed (and I don't believe it has), falcons don't flee if the owner isn't logged in, which is a large part of the reason why leaving them out is such an issue. You can't kick one to make it go to Sanctuary. Falcon flee percentages also aren't limited to between 10 and 30%; it's possible there's a lower limit imposed but if there's also an upper limit it's higher than 30% (considering mine is set to 40%).

    Also, not once in the entire time I've been playing Achaea (as a Paladin the entire time) have I experienced an issue with falcon sanctuary not working while you're holding the falcon. There used to be an issue where if the falcon desperately needed to hunt the command would fail, but that was fixed probably over a year ago now when I bugged it. If you can actually prove that claim and reliably reproduce it, file a bug because that's what it is.
    Arador
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You forgot to enter one command before you left the realms.. PREPARE TO SUFFER CONSEQUENCES.

    What a dumb paradigm. Are you people seriously arguing for people to suffer combat and IC implications for casually forgetting to enter ONE command before exiting the realms? Falcons not auto-sanctuarying after a certain period of offline time is fairly stupid, and falcons sitting there and taking a beating while their owner is absent until they are almost dead is also equally as stupid OOCly and ICly.

    It's like people don't think before they post anymore.
    KresslackArador
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2014

    To me, it's no different to leaving mounts or pets out. There's always going to be people that get off on killing loyals. If they actually matter to people, they'd look after them.

    You can also probably talk to artefacts/customisations about requesting that the reset go to Sanctuary instead of your inventory.

    Edit: My falcon's old school, is collared, and doesn't reset so I don't have those issues myself.

    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    Kresslack
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    I demand that Kresslack and Vicious come back and also disagree with their citymates who are supporting the idea of falcons being smart enough to find their own way home :P 

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2014

    I see I've been summoned. I agree with Kyrra; you have a pet/mount/loyal, and as such you're responsible for it. You. Not your housemates, not your citymates, not your friends, not Bob from DHS. You are the sole person responsible for the safety of such entities and ensuring they are properly taken care of. If you buy a mount but don't collar it, and forget to feed it, it dies. We're not about to make all mounts not require food because people keep forgetting to feed them, so why should we make falcons returning to sanctuary an automated process because people refuse to be responsible with them?

    I understand that mistakes happen, and it's happened to me in the past. You know what I did afterwards? I learned from it. I learned to reflex my qq message to send my falcon to sanctuary when leaving the realms, and a lot of the times I would actually ensure I did it manually before that reflex even fired. 

    It's on the same level of mounts and even ships. If you leave them out and unattended, you leave them vulnerable to the harshness of the world and to the attacks of certain people. If I disconnect or qq from my ship out at sea, I can reasonably assume that eventually it's going to be sunken. The crew isn't going to say, "Whelp, looks like Cap' passed out drunk again, better bring her back in for the evening boys." No. They'll sit there, and if the ship should sink, it will be my fault (even if it isn't due to dc, which has happened during storms where I really thought the ship would be sunk before I could get back in). 

    Since I was a novice Infernal falcons have always been the responsibility of the owner. In the Maldaathi we were even told that our particular falcons were a gift from Sartan, and to abuse that gift would be to see it removed. If you leave your falcon out, even because you simply forgot, and it dies, accept that you made a mistake and try to prevent making the same mistake in the future (i.e. make a two second trigger to send to sanctuary when you qq).


    TL;DR: If falcons get auto-sanctuary after being left unattended by an owner who hasn't been in the realms for x amount of time, I want ship autodocking that does the same when I log out and forget to bring her back in.



    EilonaKyrraArador
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    Wait wait, though.  There's always a question of how much or whether "realism" should apply, but falcons are live creatures, which is a bit different from a boat.  Mounts are somewhat problematic because they don't have a sanctuary in the first place (it's possible that could be changed, but as it stands, they don't), but falcons have a sanctuary, and presumably know how to find it.  In fact, they're the only ones who can... Eh.  I like ogling people's loyals anyway, so in one sense, I'm not actually all that keen to have all loyals neatly tucked away somewhere.  

  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Stables.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    Kresslack
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean

    True, I got one so I could hide my hoarding habits ;)  For people that have them, it would be kind of neat if our loyals fled to them if someone attacks them when we're not around, but anything I ever leave out is collared anyway.

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