House Icon brainstorming

Accipiter

With the House Renaissance upcoming the current Icon powers become very lackluster. With houses accepting all classes the current stat bonuses  (besides Con) become pretty underwhelming if you aren't a class that uses that stat, the same going for the damage-type boost or the resource generation.

So, lets get some ideas running on new powers that every class can use. And while we are at it, lets look at the current 'you can only attack icons at a random time each month' thing that is going on too.

How can Icons be a fundamental part of House identity, how can they be attacked/protected in the same way shrines or city rooms are and what kind of benefits would you like to see stem from them?

Katzchen

I'd like to see an icon system that means everyone can actually have icons... at least part of the time. Not where it takes an hour's concerted effort from Ashtan/Targossas/Mhaldor, and boom they're gone, you're out 2 million gold, and you can't put it back up for ten years time.

Jules

I hope people have come around on that.  People have leaned towards an "all or nothing, tough luck if you're not the Ashura" attitude when this was discussed in the past.

Katzchen

Jules said:

I hope people have come around on that.  People have leaned towards an "all or nothing, tough luck if you're not the Ashura" attitude when this was discussed in the past.

I'm never a fan of anything in a game that gives more power and draw to those who are already the strongest. It seems counter-intuitive.

Tecton

Katzchen said:

I'd like to see an icon system that means everyone can actually have icons... at least part of the time. Not where it takes an hour's concerted effort from Ashtan/Targossas/Mhaldor, and boom they're gone, you're out 2 million gold, and you can't put it back up for ten years time.

Yeah, that's the desire with the change. Not that people have them up all the time, but more the loss of the icon isn't so prohibitive. Perhaps rather than being destroyed, it would just go dormant for an achaean year or something.

Jacen

Its a hard balance to make though, because if everyone can have an Icon all the time, then its just a pure buff and its not interesting anymore. 

One thing I particularly like about Icons now is the fact that you can only attack them in phase. It can be irritating and certainly gives the attackers a big disadvantage, but when both sides know that a battle is coming and you get a concentrated effort on both sides to fight in that battle outside their timezones... well, it becomes a fight of epic proportions, and its a fight that people remember.  

I don't think any group combat situation stands out more in  my mind than dipping in and out of LoS at the SL Icon, trying to unseat Mhaldor, trying to rush the Icon with a 2k pound shard and trying to numb through the attacks. 

Accipiter

Instead of destroying the Icon entirely, you could put it into a reconstructive phase then (similar to city rooms after they have been exploded). Maybe have a baseline 'Your Icon gives you this' at all times when it is active (perhaps a choice each member can make on either a point in a stat or the boost in damage type applicable to them), and have shrine/font like powers that can be activated by house leaders at a strength cost that give offensive or defensive buffs to give it a bit of strategy to the system.

Tesha

I like the concept of icons - a community thing everyone works for. I don't like the fact that it's a reward for winning that helps you win more. I think that icons should be similar to cities in that they can be attacked and severely weakened, but not completely destroyed. 

This would hopefully lead to more fights inside of Nishnatoba, because more people would have icons. More people would go to maintain them, and you could fight more easily. It would be difficult to call for help, because of no earrings, delivering, etc. so it seems more likely that there would be small group fighting. 

Even allout raids in Nishnatoba would be possible - not quite on the scale of 40 v 30 where it just becomes silly - but raids similar in scale to normal raids now, except with the goal of lowering the target icon a bit and smudging some totems. Could even prevent people from raising shrines in Nishnatoba to allow for a method of attacking that leaves totems as the only defense, no guards/shrines to hide behind. 

Area design could become less about how do we prevent 40 people from killing everything in sight and more about creating an area you think you can use in a normal raid setting. There are so many different possibilities - little nooks and crannies, unpartable water to block beckon, permanent firewalls, moving stonewall, a straight of rooms that prevents following, pits with no escape, a room with tripwires throughout it so moving through it takes 30% of your life, different rooms with room-wide balance/equilibrium penalties or bonuses, a straight of rooms that strips/prevents mass, a series of mirrors that makes line of sight impossible, doors that take 3 people to open, rooms that triple herb balance... the possibilities are endless and fascinating to think about. 

Then it becomes less about taking something away from your opponents and more about being able to say, "We played by your rules and still won." Of course, the defending team can still always say "we didn't have our fighters!" or "timezone abuse!!!" or "soulspears OP", but I think this would be far more interesting than the current setup and offer a lot more fighting - even if it is on a smaller scale.

Ernam

I'd like to see icons boost the mainstat of each class, instead of having to be set to a single stat type.  For houses with various classes (soon to be all houses), this makes Con the only valid choice, which I think is silly.

Perhaps just make one of the icon powers give players an extra stat of their choosing, or something a little more flexible.

Nim

Another problem with icons in the new system is only maybe one house per city will have combat as a major goal now, and hardcore PvErs may likely be in a separate house altogether. It may be better if they became city constructs, with independent houses having the option of joining forces.

The bonuses could then be per-house. The wardens might want +X% damage while in Cyrene, while the kindred might want +X% against denizens, and the bards might want +X% to illusions, and the mojushai would want +X% enlightenment bonuses.

Then Ashtan's new chaos knights could get +X% damage in enemy cities, occultic sages could get +X% chance of Babel coming back, and shadowsnakes could get +X% to stealing all your gear.

Only problem I see is that all of Mhaldor's houses would go for the same +X% that Sartan loves you and won't go dormant again.

Nemutaur

Great thing about Tesha's idea is that if raiding in Nish becomes the norm its a treacherous plane that's not really easy for a newbie to stumble into. So first what happens in Nish stays in Nish, free pk and all no cause. That and we don't shank anyone who doesn't want to skirmish.

Accipiter

I'm very interested in the idea of nishnatobia battles, but the question is: what could the icons offer that would encourage attack?

The off plane aspect itself if problematic: you have no idea that the Icon is under attack until it is, meaning an offensive force could easily become entrenched in the current system. Any permanent boosts (like we have now) doesn't encourage attack because they are relatively minor. If instead the icons represented a threat that didn't involve Icons, mave that could do it? Say you could draw power from an Icon to fill a spark tank faster for instance. It has no bearing on Icon defence itself, but if you remove the icon it can stop you from being raided as effectively. Granted that under the new system you would have to remove 3 icons to be safe, but it is just a general idea from someone who doesn't PK much.

The question is "what benefit would you fight for, and what benefit would you fight to deny the other side", if that could be answered, then there is a good chance that increased Icon raids would happen. If you can't, then the system may as well stay as it is, giving a passive buff to half the cities, and nothing to the other half whose icons are destroyed the moment they are raised.

Cooper

If icon battles become a common thing the area between icons needs to be redone so it's not stupidly complicated.

Ladrun

@Accipiter ...what could the icons offer that would encourage attack?

If all icons are activated the gains from said icons could be less say +1 to a primary stat. Mhaldor destroys Cyrene's icon('s) then Mhaldor's citizens would feel stronger benefits from their Icon +2 to a primary stat and +1 to a static like constitution. A benefit like that would definitely keep the isle busy with conflict. Of course there would still have to be a cool down before you could rebuild your icon and once an icon is built it could have divine grace for a short period so that the citizens could feel it's benefits, blood in the water kind of thing. Once they get a taste they would want more (drop the others) and to keep theirs (don't let anyone destroy ours) 

Jules

Tecton said:

Katzchen said:

I'd like to see an icon system that means everyone can actually have icons... at least part of the time. Not where it takes an hour's concerted effort from Ashtan/Targossas/Mhaldor, and boom they're gone, you're out 2 million gold, and you can't put it back up for ten years time.

Yeah, that's the desire with the change. Not that people have them up all the time, but more the loss of the icon isn't so prohibitive. Perhaps rather than being destroyed, it would just go dormant for an achaean year or something.

Dormancy of some kind would be best.  To raise one, the HL has to deal with the politics of pro vs no not only within his house, but the city as well, so once one is destroyed, it can be almost impossible to get momentum going again.  It's one of those cases where it's a blessing not to have a choice.  That said, there's a really good reason people are hesitant to reestablish the icons, and that's a desire to avoid being a regular "PK harvest". I am pro-icon, pro Nish (I *love* the concept of free PK areas tied into organizational conflict), but this is a real concern for people who aren't really fighters.

Alaskar

As far as benefits, it's kind of difficult to provide tangible benefits without further empowering already dominant houses. In the interest of promoting the underdogs, I thought it'd be neat if whatever house benefits given through the icon were affected by how many house members are currently logged in? The bonus could be distributed based on a percentage of current members (although finding a way for dormant members to not be counted may be a problem). 

Also, icon effects could be excluded from working in Nishnatoba, that way when a large house shows up they're not further empowered though their icon, it may help level the playing field in that regard.

As for potential damage bonuses, they could always come with negative side effects too. Small things, like .2% slower EQ, or .1% increased damage from denizens, etc. There are a number of ways they could be balanced around not making certain houses OP.

Tesha's ideas on creating various rooms and such that alter the style of conflict are really interesting too. 

As for down time, maybe a repair type thing? If it's destroyed, it takes a significant effort from the house members to restore it? I don't know, just ideas and my opinion. 

Wei

Alaskar said:

Also, icon effects could be excluded from working in Nishnatoba, that way when a large house shows up they're not further empowered though their icon, it may help level the playing field in that regard.

This is a good idea.

Iocun

One problem about icons has always been that the "tangible rewards" were only a truly good IC goal to go for, if your house places a strong emphasis on personal power. In a house that has things like "helping others" on its flags, it's much harder to justify endangering lives to protect a stat boost.

I'd always have loved it, if houses could get some icon incentive that's tailored to their ideology, even if it's purely "flavour" (e.g. having an icon with the power to protect a village from avalanches for a benevolent house etc.)

Never been too fond of mechanics that are based on the assumption that personal power should be the main goal of every Achaean.

Ernam

@Iocun I wouldn't rule out the possibility of having that type of functionality for icons that /also/ provide the standard stat bonus. That way, everyone has a good reason to be involved.

It would be really really cool if there was a village that was, in your example, covered by an avalanche once an Achaean year or so, unless some form of player-driven intervention prevented it (could be a quest, or just tied to an icon being up and charged).

A happy, peaceful village full of little kids and chickens one day... A decimated snow wasteland the next, full of frozen villagers and sad widows the next.

I can see Cyrene and Mhaldor going at it over such a thing.

Accipiter

The rewards have to be tangible though or else there is no point having the icon. They could be things like 'allied villages are immortal', but if there is no gameplay changing effect then no one would ever care about them.

Making a group of similar but distinct pools for each faction to choose from, light based for Targ, Evil for Mhaldor, showers of gold for the merchants, ect. So instead of increased damage from blunt attacks, each attack has a chance of a second hit for 5% of the damage with the faction specific line showing up. Or a small chance of an affliction, or a new ability outside of class that has a sweet kill message, does some damage with a longish balance. Things that would promote a stronger flavour connection to your faction, no matter the class you are playing.

You can't help but feel evil playing an apostate, or chaotic when playing an occultist, if every class could get some small measure of that through the icon of their house it would be nice. The flavour aspect would also increase the reason to destroy the icons, because you would be getting rid of actual influences of X on the world.

Aepas

I always thought Icons would be interesting if they gave their stat boosts for a short amount of time, when activated.

For instance, you have your house icon at 100% for a few days. Your house leader declares it to be hunting day! for the glory of (insert thing). As such, the Icon begins to massively deplete its stores until it falls back into dormancy, granting all members of the house a minor damage reduction, health increase, crit increase, str increase, or whatever until it falls back to sleep. (I'd only have it last up to six hours) Until it gets back up to 100%, you can't use it again.

I think it would be fun to coordinate with all the houses and have a huge raid, instantly throwing up your little power boosts in the middle of a raid, but not being able to use it for a long time after that. Oh no, Mhaldor has all of it's icons to max! Here they come with all monks with +1 int, and all knights with +1str! the horror!

So, my basic idea would be, from 100% it takes six hours to deplete. It can be used at any percentage, but that of course makes it last less. After using it must return to phase before you can strengthen it, which takes 5 achaean months. You may not attack other icons. Do not collect 200$.

Sena

Instead of (or in addition to) the stat boosts, I'd like icons (or some new thing) to generate some sort of resource for the house, with the ability to attack another house's icon in order to make it produce less, or siphon off some of it's production to your own house.

I haven't thought this out very thoroughly, and I'm not sure what the resource would be used for. Preferably things everyone wants, and things that are either consumable (so they have to be purchased repeatedly) or things with constant upkeep costs, and I think direct combat bonuses should be avoided (although I like Aepas's temporary combat bonus suggestion). Whatever the resources are for, it shouldn't be possible to get everything you might want at once, so there's always a reason to want more resources and thus attack other houses (for example, say there were 10 house improvements that every house would want, and by default (with just your own icon at 100%) you could only afford to keep 2).

Actually, I think it might be better if the resources generated by the houses are primarily spent on things that provide benefits for the city as a whole, instead of just that house. That makes the houses more vital to the city and can potentially give them a sort of influence/power they can leverage, and prevents conflicts between a city's houses (for example, everyone joins House A because it has the best bonuses, or House B feels slighted because House C gets more support from the rest of the city for icon raids, etc.).

Edit: Resources could also be produced through some other method in addition to the icons, something that house members could do to contribute to the house (preferably including something that doesn't involve bashing or combat). Edit2: Actually, just go ahead and make this additional method involve sailing, kill two birds with one stone.

Ernam

I really like the idea in the third paragraph there, @Sena, but the House does need to also have some specific ownership and responsibility (consequences) too.  Otherwise you just have 3 city icons.

Wei

I think the idea of the upcoming Renaissance is that houses will be more focused on the city than on themselves as a separate entity. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Trevize

Ernam said:

I really like the idea in the third paragraph there, @Sena, but the House does need to also have some specific ownership and responsibility (consequences) too.  Otherwise you just have 3 city icons.

Just going to throw this out there - what about reversing it? City icons that Houses benefit from? Require city and House membership to get the benefit (since they seem to be moving towards consolidating the two) and give a reason for the whole city to defend/keep up rather than just the one House.

Caladbolg

Jacen said:

One thing I particularly like about Icons now is the fact that you can only attack them in phase. It can be irritating and certainly gives the attackers a big disadvantage, but when both sides know that a battle is coming and you get a concentrated effort on both sides to fight in that battle outside their timezones... well, it becomes a fight of epic proportions, and its a fight that people remember.  

I don't think any group combat situation stands out more in  my mind than dipping in and out of LoS at the SL Icon, trying to unseat Mhaldor, trying to rush the Icon with a 2k pound shard and trying to numb through the attacks. 

I remember killing the icons of Mhaldor and Ashtan, there was like 40 of us standing there with dragons rushing in trying to get world shatterings before they instantly fell over. Wasn't really a fight of epic proportions anymore than 650 ctf when Ashtan had a group of 30 people standing on one flag.

But I think the worst part about all of this. Since I left Hashan and Joined shallam (was like 16 maybe 18?) I've never had a boost from an Icon, Putting them up is pretty pointless because they'll instantly be knocked back down.

I do like Tecton's/Katzchen idea though because honestly. +1 con or whatever is a pretty nice bonus to being in a house. (Still wish I wasn't in one though) 

Onto the other hand of stat matters, While I think some of your ideas are good

Ernam said:

I'd like to see icons boost the mainstat of each class, instead of having to be set to a single stat type.  For houses with various classes (soon to be all houses), this makes Con the only valid choice, which I think is silly.

Perhaps just make one of the icon powers give players an extra stat of their choosing, or something a little more flexible.

Instead of this, how about a new skill (maybe survival) that allows you to change what stat your icon currently gives. In my personal opinion this would be a good change as it would allow you to choose between what you want as your reward for being in a house.

On the other hand it also gives a combat advantage to people in a house over people not in a house . and Although I love you guys I really do @Aurora @Deucalion ....

I hate being in a house -_-

So Basically what im trying to say is +1 stats seem good, Blunt and slashing bonuses might need to be relooked at if everyone can get them, Allow the person to pick what they get from the icon.

(Could even do like +Npc Damage +Crit +Exp) Put a limit on it of say, once every achaean month and then create an artifact that lets you change it once an hour.

Side note: (I have no idea how powerful any of the current icon stuff is as if you read above I haven't been in a house that had an icon since Caladbolg was like 20-30ish)

Edit:After I spent like 20 minutes writing this out I realized Ernam had pretty much the same idea I did so I tried to make my post look less retarded when im quoting someone saying exactly what im saying.