Knighthood

Florentino

Wrong thread, sorry.

Katzchen

..

Aerek

Fun fact: the Wardens House has never Knighted a non-knight-classed individual. Even during the years that we accepted multiple classes, no one of a non-knight class ever made it to an Accolade, only Runewardens/Paladins did. The folks @Edoren is referencing were originally Runewardens and changed class later. :smiley: Not that necessarily means anything, I just thought it was interesting.

There are some classes that I can't accept as Knights, the extremes of Serpent and Jester being the most obvious, but there are others. I do consider your class to be a major aspect of your character, and some classes are just inherently un-Knightly. If Knighthood goes class-independent, I will always have trouble making sense of that, BUT I've pretty much accepted that the world is changing, and I need to get over it.

@Jurixe‌ In all fairness, a "Knight" standard for each class is less about thinking up titles and tasks, and more about fostering inter-house cooperation. Just inventing some cool title or fun tasks for your House doesn't make it like Knighthood, because no other House cares about your cool title or fun tasks. The key to obtaining what Knighthood has attained is getting other organizations to recognize and emulate your standards.

@Tohran The main reason the Ithmian/Gaian Knights haven't been implicated is that they've never had a consistent presence. When I inherited the CoK, (What an unfortunate acronym!) I wanted to include the Gaian Knights in the conversation, but there literally wasn't one to include. Eleusian Knights have, so far, tended to be big-name Eleusian combatants that become Runewardens for a while, but then change class later. I don't think anyone has really based their RP around being one, as of yet.

Mishgul

Knights are the way they are in Achaea primarily because of guilds and player choices after guilds. The Maldaathi have been severely opposed to non infernal/runewarden/paladin knights since they were made but Knighthood is going to become what we shoehorn into its ideals to make a certain group of players happy. 

The Maldaathi are very likely going to cease to be, and their legacy will probably remain in some form to preserve everything they have done. It seems unfair to put them into a situation where their integrity will be questioned due to the mechanics of Achaea. 

Obviously with a background as fanatical as Mhaldors something will replace them but it will never be the same, and it's easily justifiable to change with the advent of people gaining the ability to learn multiple skills and the whole advancement shmancement thing.

Jules

Even though it's a tiny house, Maldaathi are the biggest loss, as the very interesting idea of honourable evil will probably die with them.

Alrena

@Tohran the Gaian and Ithmian knights are non-existant at the moment. There was very, very mild interest to restart the Ithmian Knights by a few, but there are simply not enough runewardens in Eleusis to make it a big thing. Instead, the Sentinel House has the prestige title of Guardian of Nature, which does not follow the knight ethos, but could become similar in terms of prestige. It's also more likely that that will happen than Eleusis starting up a knight program (again?).

Jhaeli

@Aerek Not true! I joined at the start of Houses as a Priest, was Knighted, then later changed to Runewarden. I was one of the few exceptions though. 

Tohran

Alrena said:

@Tohran the Gaian and Ithmian knights are non-existant at the moment. There was very, very mild interest to restart the Ithmian Knights by a few, but there are simply not enough runewardens in Eleusis to make it a big thing. Instead, the Sentinel House has the prestige title of Guardian of Nature, which does not follow the knight ethos, but could become similar in terms of prestige. It's also more likely that that will happen than Eleusis starting up a knight program (again?).

Remind me to take a screenshot of Sentinels HW. There are more Runewardens than anything else whenever I'm online, granted, most of them ARE newbies. They won't be newbies forever and I'd really like to see Forestal Knight RP gain some depth. Druid, Sentinel, and Sylvan classed RP works really well in Eleusis, while the others are just sort of there to supply venoms, forgings, and cute dolls of your significant other. 

I had hoped with @Gaia‌ returning that She would push a little to get them started back up. The Ithmian Knights were founded to give forestal knights an organization since Gaia was, well, dead.  (HINT HINT @Gaia‌  HINT HINT!)  Perhaps I'll have Tohran start mentioning it here and there.

Aerek

Jhaeli said:

@Aerek Not true! I joined at the start of Houses as a Priest, was Knighted, then later changed to Runewarden. I was one of the few exceptions though. 

Full disclosure, I had a few drinks last night, went completely fucking braindead, and forgot I was a Priest when I was Knighted. Double-checking the records, I also can't remember if Naomh was Druid or Runewarden at the time of her Accolade, so we've had 3 at most.

Trilliana

Pretty sure Naomh was Druid because she didn't change class until after Trilliana got Knighted. Ariettie was Sentinel as far as I know.

Invictus

Aerek, this is why you don't drink without me.

Arador

Bit late into this discussion but it is something very dear to me.

When autoclass came around, I will unashamedly say that I was one of the "Only classes with Chivalry can be Knights" group. Most of us were, as the idea of any other class with that title was unfamiliar and did not fit the mental picture of the game at that time. Hence a stranglehold was kept on the Knight Classes by the Houses involved. Some were a bit more lenient, yes but in general we were not ready to divorce the idea of class from the idea of Knighthood. I always think that maybe that was something @Sarapis might have wanted with autoclass (The idea that your class should not force you to make your character act a certain way and that any class should be able to go to any House and live by the House ideals, not the class ideals) but we as the players were not ready for that change in mindset and so we ended up putting in a ton of limitations between all the Houses.

Now here we are today, multiclass incoming and I can say that over the years my mind has changed. Class, while having an influence on your character, should not be the dominating force behind your character's principles. Sure you can incorporate it into your personality but the big questions: "Am I Evil, Good or Neutral?" "Am I a scoundrel or honourable", those should NOT be determined by your class. When you do it like that, then the moment you decide you would like to switch to another class, you have to change House as well and depending on where you changed to or from, that could mean you would have to change your entire character and their conduct. This always bothered me.

Knighthood should be about your actions and principles, not your class. Yes, I understand we are basing the idea of Knighthood off the Fantasy Genre Idea to some extent but as Sarapis mentioned, that does not mean we have to follow it to the damn tee. You can keep the most important ideals (acting honourably, not teaming people, speaking with respect, maintaining your composure and temper, putting others or your cause before your own life, being a warrior/protector and requiring at least decent combat ability) in place without ever touching on the subject of Class. No matter what class you play, you can follow those tenets.

I also firmly oppose watering down Knighthood into a lifetime service award aka Elton John, but that does not mean there is no room for change while still maintaining the wonderful concept of Knighthood within Achaea. I have through my years met Runewardens who fought like bastards and Jesters/Serpents that fought and acted with just as much honour as any Knight.

Is it a comfortable change? No, not really. We have had it this way for ages but that does not mean it is what is best. If we choose to maintain this vice-like grip on Knighthood, all that will happen is that it will die out or become meaningless. So what would I suggest?

You do not need a specific House in a city to be able to train Knights. We can have city based clans for those people who would like to follow the path to Knighthood. Their tasks, standards and requirements can remain pretty much the same as the Knight Houses have in place now. These can in turn be overseen by a cross city body, the Council of Knighthood, who's job it is not to get involved in every detail of a specific character's training but to act as an oversight committee to ensure that what each city clan puts in place is deemed of a high enough standard for the person to carry the title of Sir/Dame when they have passed them.

I look through our current Knighthood requirements and remembering all those we have had over the years and with the exception of 1 line (Be able to demonstrate a Vivisect or DSB), NOTHING about them points specifically at any one class. (I am not counting "Reach Engage in Chivalry"-type requirements as those are merely guidelines about what order to learn stuff in)

So we need to get over this Classist (*drumroll*) view and either work to make Knighthood relevant and awesome in the age of Multiclass or we can sit and scream at people to get off our lawns while the world passes us by.

Vicious

So most of this I'm reading is that knightclasses have to be a certain personality type to obtain a Sir/Lady title? <That's bogus.

Knighthood should be a goal set standard in service not personality based on whether a person can be "liked" but rather combat prowess, reasoning skills, raid tactics, and service to their city.

Knighthood is a large rp thing sure, but watering it down and giving it to someone as a retirement political title is lame

Note: when I started infernal, I was lost on vivisect and dsb, I practiced my ass off learning these skills and the ideas from people along the way.

It's a long hard road, for classes that imo are geared more towards dueling than group, but it's feasible and being a knight is kick ass. The whole "other peoples opinions to becoming knight" is dumb if you've done everything required and have shown initiative to progress in your house/city.

P.S. - knighting non knight classes is stupid and an insult to those who have taken the path of a knightclass.

Trey

Vicious said:

So most of this I'm reading is that knightclasses have to be a certain personality type to obtain a Sir/Lady title? <That's bogus.

Knighthood should be a goal set standard in service not personality based on whether a person can be "liked" but rather combat prowess, reasoning skills, raid tactics, and service to their city.

Knighthood is a large rp thing sure, but watering it down and giving it to someone as a retirement political title is lame

Note: when I started infernal, I was lost on vivisect and dsb, I practiced my ass off learning these skills and the ideas from people along the way.

It's a long hard road, for classes that imo are geared more towards dueling than group, but it's feasible and being a knight is kick ass. The whole "other peoples opinions to becoming knight" is dumb if you've done everything required and have shown initiative to progress in your house/city.

P.S. - knighting non knight classes is stupid and an insult to those who have taken the path of a knightclass.

I don't think anyone here is surprised that you disagree with the bolded.

Jules

Think of it this way.  Why does any other class need the honorifics associated with knights in the first place?  Why do "Sir" and "Lady" hold such sway over players' imaginations such that they'd even want to extend it to those other classes (while hoping against all hope to somehow maintain the power of those titles).

Nim

Because it's just about the only house title that has any real recognition outside the house that came up with it. Some titles are well devised that they generally tell you what the person does, but a lot are mysterious, and some houses seem to allow (or even encourage) nonstandard titles for full members.

It's still iffy because Sir/Dame are simple enough to grab without being a knight (and Lady is outright ambiguous), but people at least know knighthood exists. How many people here can tell me which order the full member Mojushai ranks go in, that haven't been a mojushai, nevermind what they are? (Kinsei, Daisei, and Insei, in no particular order)

I thought dreadborns were apostates for the longest time, and unnamed (or whatever it was) must be serpents. A shoremaster must be related to ships, right? Does hashan even have titles? Etc.

Silas

I think the priesthood titles from the priest/appstate guilds held similar sway, just with a lot less fanfare. You just need to work on building the reputation of your class archetype title/program, and people will recognise that.

Non-knight classed knights will always be an abomination.

Trey

Silas said:

I think the priesthood titles from the priest/appstate guilds held similar sway, just with a lot less fanfare. You just need to work on building the reputation of your class archetype title/program, and people will recognise that.

Non-knight classed knights will always be an abomination.

I lean more toward your side of the fence than the 'any class can be a knight if they act right', but I'm willing to reach a middle ground where the general consensus should be that skill at arms is the primary class function. I realize that's only five classes out of the lot, but it would allow for more if any fitting the bill later on. I do disagree that a knight should be a heavy armour user, though. Just look at the Crusades: most of those guys rocked chainmail, not fullplate, and if they're not one of the most prevalent traditional images of 'knight', then I don't know what is.

Nim

@Silas: So then do you think the idea of knighthood should just be deleted once multiclass is in? Or should knights be class-restricted?

It's fine to say they're an abomination now, but this seeming abomination may soon be an unavoidable part of knighthood short of just scrapping the idea.

Arador

Yep, it is al fine and well to say "Well I would like it this way and keep it this way" but what then off multi class? Should Knights be prohibited from taking a second non Knight class? Or limited to only weapon wielding ones? That is as shitty a deal as I've ever seen and will most likely lead to Knighthood dying out. We are opening up this entire toy box and then saying "because this is the way I know and like things to be, you can not play with any of this if you want to be a Knight".

I would be a lot more concerned about preserving the QUALITIES OF CHARACTER that define a Knight than with crying about a mental familiarity formed around a class historically associated with that name.

Jhaeli

There are ways of preserving the already established "Way of Life" that Knighthood encompasses without latching into the knight classes as a requirement. These standards could continue to encourage things like force of arms, chivalry and honour, open combat, etc., without the hard limitations.

As much as we might want to keep it knight classes only, as Arador says, Knighthood must evolve or die. Multiclass will force our hand whether we like it or not.

ETA: Depending on how multiclass is implemented, Kazu's point of requiring the individual to maintain at least ONE knight class is likely as close as we would get to keeping class restrictions. It would come with its own set of complications though - for example, do they need to use the class regularly? Do they have to be tri-trans'd to be recognized? Etc.

Kazu

Arador said:

Yep, it is al fine and well to say "Well I would like it this way and keep it this way" but what then off multi class? Should Knights be prohibited from taking a second non Knight class? Or limited to only weapon wielding ones? That is as shitty a deal as I've ever seen and will most likely lead to Knighthood dying out. We are opening up this entire toy box and then saying "because this is the way I know and like things to be, you can not play with any of this if you want to be a Knight".

I would be a lot more concerned about preserving the QUALITIES OF CHARACTER that define a Knight than with crying about a mental familiarity formed around a class historically associated with that name.

No one said that they'd be unable to take a second non-knight class. In fact, knights were well known for having other traits such as poetry or music in ancient times. Many were often part of some priesthood as well. I see no reason that a knight couldn't pick up a second class as long as they were originally a knight and continue to maintain at least one knight class.

Invictus

I wouldn't have a problem with a Knight having another class. As Kazu noted,  Knights had many other hobbies that they were pretty decent at in the old days, I wouldn't see a problem with an aspiring knight taking up another class if they complete all their requirements and tasks as a Knight class and still remain 'knightly' in other forms.

Synbios

Silas said:

Non-knight classed knights will always be an abomination.

Finally, someone gets me.

Arador

Oh and yes those titles from the Apostate and Priest Guilds indeed carry great meaning and respect, if slightly lesser known and I would not say that those who earned them post auto class, playing as other classes watered then down. They put in exactly the same effort as the Priests and Apostates that earned then and established the weight of those titles in the first place.

Mithridates

i wanna be a knight

Silas

After multiclass, I'd say knights should still be primarily knight-classed. If you spend most of your time as a jester or a serpent, you should get the Caerid treatment.

ETA: I don't see blademaster or bard as being knightly classes. They play to their own archetypes already, and neither really fit in with the typical idea of knighthood. Not overly arsed about the heavy armour, though, so I'd be willing to concede that, just as I'd be happy for knights to wield blunt weapons.

Jurixe

While I am a proponent of knighthood as you suggest, I would suggest that the whole point of this (or at least the impression I'm getting from Sarapis) is to move away from the 'typical' idea of knighthood beyond the very fundamental idea that knights must be 'chivalrous'.

I would also assume that all knight programs of every city would have to receive final approval from the Council of Knighthood in order to ensure that a base standard is maintained, which would allow for the continued intercity respect between the different knights which is so unique to knight roleplay. With that in mind, it seems like it will be quite the task to get everyone (or if that is too optimistic, a majority) to agree on the sort of limitations that would define knighthood worldwide, especially in terms of class limitations. I would hate to see there be a breakdown in that consensus and every city going off and making their own programmes, but I suspect that might be a very probable reality.

Arador

Disclaimer: 

• This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

The Tale of Johnny and Jimmy

Johnny is a Runewarden and instead of doing the walk of life, he is interested in doing the dance of death. (It is all downhill from that lame joke, I promise).

Johnny labours at his requirements, shows great honour and strength of character and so he eventually becomes Knighted. Sir Johnny writes home to his dear mum, who is very proud and tells all the ladies at the local shops.

Then Multiclass comes along and Johnny figures he would try his hand at being a serpent. After all, the dusty overlords of the Knighthood Council begrudgingly permit "hobbies". Johnny does not have to change his title whenever he is in Serpent mode, that would be stupid. He is still Sir Johnny and he still acts and fights with honour as he always has. After all, the dusty Overlords love musing about their own class superiority and having to write letters of apology when Sir Johnny backstab-ganks people that say "Sir Johnny was merely enjoying his hobby and can not be held accountable in that form" would interrupt their discussions on how noble it is to be able to hold a rapier in each hand.

Sir Johnny likes Serpent and he is good with the class. In fact he stays in it all the time. He is still a good Knight. He still acts like one every step of the way, even though he has not switched back to Runewarden in 60 years. No one even remembers which one of the Knight classes he used to be. He needs to check AB himself, just to be sure. But no one would disagree that he is a Knight because he fights with honour, carries himself with chivalry and dignity.

In fact, he is such a good Knight he inspires little Jimmy, a young Serpent. Jimmy plasters Sir Johnny posters (Please, @Tecton‌can this be a thing?) all over his room walls and spends his days watching the Knight, learning, admiring. Sir Johnny decides not to get a restraining order since Jimmy's sister is kinda cute and gets dragged along sometimes.

Jimmy realises he has found his path in life. He wants to be a Knight. He works tirelessly at combat, his mother sells her last goat to send him to finishing school so they can tell him to raise his pinky when drinking tea. He serves his city and fellow citizens, acting with respect, honour and selflessness in every waking moment of his life. As "Knightlyness" goes, Sir Johnny is a good, little Jimmy is better.

Finally little Jimmy decides he wants to put his skills and character to the test and he packs a sensible travel lunch and makes his way to the Council building.....

Stepping into the hallowed halls he kneels, then after waiting 5 minutes and realising they do not notice him, he clears his throat to garner the attention of two Council members arguing over Laguz vs Frenzy. "Hail, esteemed Council. I, Jimmy would respectfully ask your permission to pit myself against the trials of Knighthood.", he intones. Sir Invoketus looks over and straightens himself. "And which class are you? Runewarden, Paladin or Infuriating?", he asks, throwing a sidelong glance at Sir Troy, their argument still seething under the surface. "None, Sir. I am a Serpent", Jimmy answers, his head still bowed low as he hears Sir Troy choking on his biscuit. "A WHAT? No Serpent can ever be a Knight! Begone from these halls and do not waste the time of The Council!", Sir Invoketus bellows.

"But....but..I am sure I could meet every requirement and complete any task as put before me. I have worked my entire life to ensure I uphold the tenets of Knighthood and it has been my dream ever since I met Sir Johnny, who as you would know is also a Serpent.", he pleads. "Nonsense! That is merely a hobby we have allowed him to indulge in from time to time. He is truly a.....Pa.....Um...". Sir Troy, hesitates a moment, looking to Sir Invoketus desperately but only getting a blank, slighty panicked look in return. He leans over and elbows the sleeping Sir Silos, the old Knight muttering something about hot, steamy steel as he is startled into wakefulness.

"I say, Sir Silos, could you remember what class old Johnny is?". Sir Silos straightens up in his chair, blinking a few times. "Sir Johnny? Excellent chap! Very Knightly. Loudest battlecry I have ever heard!" he states nodding his head repeatedly. "Yes, but what class is he, again?", Sir Troy repeats. "Oh he is a...a...". Rubbing sleep out of his eyes with one hand the old Knight opens a tome sending swirls of dust darting to the edges of the table like startled cockroaches, paging back to pages still written in Shallamese. "Ahah! Here it is, Sir Johnny is a Runewarden, of course.", he exclaims, slamming the tome shut in triumph and sending all three Knights into a coughing fit with the dust.

"There you go, young Jimmy. Sir Johnny is truly a Runewarden and as such he is permitted to be Knighted.", Sir Invoketus says to the young serpent. "But he has not been in that form in the last 60 years! He is a Serpent every day of his life! You could not even remember what knight class he is!", the boy pleads. "Sorry young lad, those are the rules that have been handed down from generation to generation ever since the world was completely different to how it is now. Those without Chivalry can not be said to have "True Chivalry"(tm).", Sir Silos offers as explanation.

The boy slumps down. No amount of logic could stand up to that amount of tradition. "Look is there nothing I could do?", he asks. 'Well, you are well spoken of and highly regarded for your honour, bravery and combat skill. You have fought selflessly for your city and your ideals so you have that part pretty much down. Don't you have three and a half thousand lessons laying about perhaps? Then you could just learn those combat abilities that will make no difference to your character at all but that would allow us to tick this here "Is a Knight Class" check box and we can call you a Knight if you pass the trials in that profession.", Sir Troy offers.

"No. No I do not." Jimmy says, sadly, before getting up and walking home to tear down all his Knighthood posters and deciding that no Council that archaic can tell him who he truly is. The three Knights got into a heated argument over parry bypass venom combinations but manage to settle their differences over a hearty chat about how amazing (and sometimes, cute) falcons are.

And Sir Johnny? Oh he continued to be a good Knight, never going back to his Runewarden form again. His hobby might have become his profession but that did not mean he was no longer a Knight in the eyes of the Council as long as he used the loophole of keeping a second class he would never use. The story goes that a few years later he forgot himself for a moment and changed from Runewarden to Monk in order to serve his city better and got a very mean note in the mail from the Council. He threw it in the trash and kept his title. No one cared about the Council any more anyway.

Trey

Arador said:

MEGASNIP

@Arador, man, I like you, but the position you're taking on this is about as retarded as Sarapis' argument involving 'your character isn't hearing English'.