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Automation - be careful

ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

Anytus yoinked me to a room to help me fix a non-related bug (my prismatic ring doesn't work) earlier, and noticed that my "do-repeat" function on SVO continued to try using my bashing attack on a skeleton several times.

This isn't a character assassination or anything, but I was is immediately accused of auto-bashing and very narrowly avoided 30 days of shrubbing (first ever record of this occurring on any of my characters in 13 years).

I clearly and openly stated that I was in no way automating anything, by my (and what I think the normal) definition of automation.  I was simply using my 'dor <combo> skeleton' function in SVO to repeat hitting it until it died.  If I walk away from my keyboard, at most, one denizen will die.

According to Anytus, this is in fact automation and is punishable by 30 days shrubbing on first offense, and permanent ban if it ever comes up again.

I asked him if he minded if I post this, and he said it was ok.  I just wanted to warn people about this, because as far as I know, using 'dor' in SVO, or the equivalent, to bash, is used by about 90% of the playerbase, on a regular basis.

This isn't a debate or anything, the admin stance on this was just made pretty clear.  I will say, however, that I don't agree with it, I don't like it, and I don't think anybody in the game cares if anybody else is using 'dor kill <denizen>' to bash.

So, I hope I'm helping a person or two by throwing this out there.  If the game staff noticing you using 'dor' or any other simple balance repeater, you could get shrubbed/banned.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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      BlujixapugJules

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      • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean


        So now I'm SDF'd, and I will almost certainly never bash again.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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            HasarTrey
          1. AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 428 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
            A long time ago, shortly after fishing was introduced, I asked about automation. The reply from Clementius/Maya led admin was that if you could leave the keyboard and it would keep doing something indefinitely then it wasn't allowed. The upshot was that as long as you manually cast, you could automate the rest of fishing.

            Using dor, you will repeat the action from now until doomsday if you happened to have a heart attack and die alone in your apartment, there is no escape from the loop and so it is against the rules according to the old definition I got. Put a break in the loop somewhere so you have to interact with it (and no, it keeping firing but not hitting anything and you having to manually move doesn't count) and you should be fine. Having it stop doring if you get the message 'You can't see anything here by that name' should do that trick.
            SylvanceTrilliana
          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited May 2014
            my 'dor' thing stops on a lot of things, including that, as well as killing the NPC.  It doesn't stop on the 'You can't do that here" message in the saferoom that Anytus pulled me into though.

            If you relate manually casting to manually initiating each NPC (they take about 8 seconds to kill for me, on average), then that's exactly what I do did, and I'm pretty sure it's what most of the people who play Achaea do.  It stops when I kill something, then I move on and find something else to kill.  That's not automation in my book, and never has been.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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              1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited May 2014
                @Sarapis, @Tecton, can we specify in the automation rules to allow this?  It's pretty damn silly that a simple balance repeater is being called automation.  I don't think anybody in the game cares if anybody else uses this function, so it shouldn't be against the rules.   These rules are there to protect the playerbase from cheaters, but I don't think anybody would consider using 'dor' (do-repeat on balance) cheating.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                    Sylvance
                  1. DraekarDraekar Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    edited May 2014

                    Most people I know, including myself use  a do-repeat function for everything from hunting to forging to whatever.

                    Most all of the public systems and hunting scripts on the forums use this as well.

                    Not really sure why you got punished for this but I think a clear ruling on the matter would be helpful as probably three quarters of the playerbase  or more are guilty of this.

                    MelodieErnamSylvanceUtianima
                  2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    Administrator Anytus says, "You realise that your client automatically repeating a bashing attack is automation?"



                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                        Strata
                      1. AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 428 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                        @jovolo Disagreed cause I am an elder dragon who bashed up all but like 20 talisman pieces, I don't use dor cause it makes thing super duper boring instead of just super boring.

                        WessuxPrythe
                      2. HirstHirst Member Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

                        I have yet to use do-repeat when bashing. Hope they shrub people that do.  Too many auto-bashers around.

                        SylvanceStrataDarktalonZincor
                      3. MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,012 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        This is actually really concerning, considering how severe the punishment is, not just for bashers, but for people who do tons of trade skills (forging, harvesting, extraction, some people even do it for tailoring and cooking and so on). I just finished up a harvesting run and now I kind of don't even want to go back out until we get a very clear answer on this.
                                   My wing tips waltz across naive
                                         Wood floors they creak
                                      Innocently down the stairs

                                              Drag melody
                        My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
                                  Matching set of marching clocks
                                    The slumbering apparitions
                                  That they've come to wake up
                        ErnamSylvanceUtianimaPrythe
                      4. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean


                        If they want to make this automation, then whatever, I simply won't bash.  But popping up out of nowhere in a community that frequently and openly uses this function (I've seen it all the time in logs, in conversations, in clans), and stating that I'm going to be shrubbed for a month for using it is pretty uncalled for. 

                        If anything, it's an unclear issue.  I think they should un-fuzz the rule before they start shrubbing people who don't realize they're even breaking the rules (if indeed they are).

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                            Sylvance
                          1. HirstHirst Member Posts: 209 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

                            How is this unclear? If you can get up from your computer and it keeps doing it (aside from curing which is an obvious exception given serverside), its automation. Can't get much clearer than that.
                            Darktalon
                          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            edited May 2014

                            Hirst said:

                            How is this unclear? If you can get up from your computer and it keeps doing it (aside from curing which is an obvious exception given serverside), its automation. Can't get much clearer than that.

                            Because if I initiate a fight with an NPC, then walk away, the NPC will be dead in the next 5 seconds.  Then my character will continue sitting there doing nothing.

                            That isn't automation.

                            There are certainly people in this game who clear entire areas (islands & meropis come to mind) completely automatically.  I've caught them doing it, and have done crap like place icewalls in their route just for lulz.

                            That is automation.  That is cheating.  That should be what people get in trouble for.


                            When Anytus pulled me aside, I noticed within seconds and responded.  To me, that alone should mean it isn't automation.  I can definitely say that on dozens of occassions I've had people bashing/forging get back to me like 15 minutes later with "My bad, I was bashing/forging, what's up?".

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                              1. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                edited May 2014
                                Hirst said:

                                How is this unclear? If you can get up from your computer and it keeps doing it (aside from curing which is an obvious exception given serverside), its automation. Can't get much clearer than that.

                                I assume you use a system that will continue to cure for you when you get up and leave your computer? Everyone uses automation at varying levels. Do Repeat isn't even strictly as automated as that, because it's limited to a single room. Creating a mapper that moves along and captures things to bash on info here would be a good example of actual auto bashing. This is just a bad ruling

                                SylvanceSherazadPrythe
                              2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean


                                I can also kill 90% of the underworld (one at a time) by queing six attacks, and walking away from my keyboard.  Is that automation?

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                                    Bluef
                                  1. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                    Jovolo said:
                                    [...] This is just a bad ruling

                                    I completely agree, and I intend on speaking with someone higher up about it (I hope this SDF will be removed so I can play again).

                                    The reason I made the thread was to warn people about this in the mean time, until someone like Sarapis or Tecton clarifies the rule.

                                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                      1. NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

                                        I always thought the admin only went after egregious offenders because they have no hope of enforcing it on a broader scale due to a MUD's lack of client control.  While using a bashing attack on repeat is against the letter of the law, it's either 1) not against the spirit or 2) the spirit is dumb.  Coming down on people using very basic tools only meant to get rid of mashing a key thousands of times isn't doing anyone any good.  Achaea's bashing is horrifically repetitive, is it really desirable to go after everyone who isn't interested in carpal tunnel? I never believed the administration really cared about automation that much, what with running into all the really young dragons who suddenly cease their bashing and spend ten minutes twiddling their thumbs when they run into an icewall.

                                        The anti-automation law is necessary but unenforceable, Anytus dropped the ball when he made such a minor infraction an issue.

                                        Also, doesn't svo come with a key bound to toggling do-repeat bashing?

                                        DraekarMelodieErnamSherazad
                                      2. NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
                                        Ernam said:

                                        I clearly and openly stated that I was in no way automating anything, by my (and what I think the normal) definition of automation.  I was simply using my 'dor <combo> skeleton' function in SVO to repeat hitting it until it died.  If I walk away from my keyboard, at most, one denizen will die.

                                        If you said it like that then I can understand why Anytus might have gone overboard and handed out the sdf. Not the hitting it until it dies, but walking away from your keyboard where DOR would continue to kill any skeleton in the room until none was left.

                                        Still undue punishment if you responded in seconds, for all he knows you could have been writing a really long sentence as a tell or something and wanted to get that finished so that you didn't have to type it all out again.

                                      3. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean


                                        Looking at my log, it took me about four seconds to respond, which included me typing out saying hello to Anytus, and the time it took me to realize what the hell was happening (being summoned etc).

                                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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                                          1. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                            Jovolo said:
                                            That's retarded. Everyone who bashes uses a Do Repeat function. 

                                            No they don't actually. That being said, I don't see how using a Do Repeat function for things like bashing, fishing, forging, etc is a big deal. So long as there's something that will happen within the chain that will keep it from looping indefinitely. For instance, setting up triggers to attack someone based on it's entrance announce or based on a trigger hit of it being seen in the room would be automation (lot of people tend to try that for ratting), especially if you go through the trouble like I've seen one person do and set up a random map walk path around an area to do it. 



                                          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                            edited May 2014


                                            On another note entirely, I find the idea of me personally auto-bashing pretty funny, solely based on the frequency of being attacked.  Ernam is a pretty popular target.  Autobashing in a treacherous plane would be suicide.

                                            I'm afraid to AFK inside Targossas on a guard stack (been killed doing exactly that several times), so there's no way I'd ever AFK in a treacherous plane.

                                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                              1. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,020 @@ - Legendary Achaean

                                                Ernam said:


                                                I can also kill 90% of the underworld (one at a time) by queing six attacks, and walking away from my keyboard.  Is that automation?

                                                To an extent, it is, actually, but is it reasonably acceptable? I think so. Unless you have triggers to auto-attack others that walk into the room you're in or as soon as you walk into a room and see them, then I really don't see it being a problem.



                                                Ernam
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