Alchemist Fighting

Aduan

I've been sparring a bit with a set of people, and attempted to approach alchemist combat from several different directions.

Honestly, it feels like a big mess at current. Alchemists aren't very tanky, and have to stick around to get their attacks in and build up moment (as referenced by Dji earlier). The problem is very glaring when attempting to fight monks, runies and magi. A bit less when facing affliction classes.

At the moment:
Temper takes 4 seconds balance recovery

Wrack/Truewrack approximately 2-2.1

Educing: 4 seconds flat.

As the attacks need to be strung together, we can decide to afflict with one affliction every two seconds, or educe as well, and afflict every 4 seconds. Unsurprisingly, this won't really hinder anyone. Most classes that have such slow balances, generally have some kind of passive hindering to make up for it or armor. Alchemists appear to have neither.

With the current way it is, fluid balance can be easily be brought down by hindering the alchemist, running isn't necessary by default even. I think it would be interesting to see what happens, if the fluid increase from Temper was halved, and the recovery speed brought down to 2 seconds. Along with educing being reduced in recovery and damage. 

When that happens, applying the other humours and inundating them for example for damage would lead to an actual spike. The alchemist could push a bit more in a fight, making them offensively at least somewhat competitive. It's not that big of a change overal, as the spike ends when the fluid runs low (about 3 inundations, after that it takes a while to build up again).

Naah

I dunno, I've gotten destroyed by Alchemists who tank my finisher. And their (no)homo block is really annoying when my fluid level and bleeding is sky high. My mana is absolutely drained from clotting, and if they're mounted with trans avoidance, I can barely manage to sneak a torso break and escape the room to jump-kick them without them noticing their torso is prepped.

I feel like Alchemist is in a good place, it just has a higher learning curve than other classes.

Aduan

It takes 16 seconds to get to a point where inundate is possible. From there, every second or third attack is an inundate. Which means, a bleed ever 8-12 seconds (every 8 seconds means fluid will still drop too low after three times). That means you have a good 40 seconds before they even get to you bleeding heavily.

If you cannot break a torso within that time, well that says more about you then the alchemist.

When you know how the homunculus works, you can escape just fine. But most people seem to ommit that bit as well. The Homunculus block is dependant on your fluid level. It ranges from 25-75%. Don't run when your fluid level is topped, wait for the humour or when they inundate, then run over and over. You'll get out fairly fast. If you wait till you bleed a lot, yeah then you're dead, but you asked for it.

And combine that with alchemists low armor and no defense, you can pretty much lay on the hurt, unless they are heavily artied. At that point it's a different game, as they can probably outtank damage. But that's besides the alchemist balance point. They'd still be just tickling you for 30-40 seconds, and then you either begin to bleed and die, or you kill em.

Achimrst

Your using Vitrify to cause bleeding as well @Aduan? 

Jovolo

Where is your source for fluid level affecting homunculus block just out of curiosity?

The main problen imo for alchemists is that they're highly comparable to a limb damage class that loses their prep any time the opponent can leave the room.

They need looking at. They kind of suck when it comes to combat - not necessarily in terms of efficiency, but that they're both frustrating to fight as and against.

Achimrst

Achimrst said:

Your using Vitrify to cause bleeding as well @Aduan? 

To add on this, not to mention Corruption to stop clotting?

Aduan

Ofcourse Achimrst, it's just not as efficient when people know how to counter it.

Achimrst

Aduan said:

Ofcourse Achimrst, it's just not as efficient when people know how to counter it.

Alright, just making sure cause you didn't mention it. You can always skip educing and wrack to stop them from killing you, it just takes balance and you can do it fairly quickly.

Zii

Temper is 4 seconds flat.

Generally, you have to wait for temper balance.

Alchemist is terribly OP, if all else fails, INUNDATE SANGUINE x5.

If you need tips, Zii's a former alchemist who studied combat for the Fist.  Convert, subject yourself to Evil, and absorb his wisdom.

EDIT: @Aduan, if you're struggling, you're doing something wrong.

Jovolo

Temper is 4 seconds though. (Exactly a Wrack and Truewrack balance.)

@Aduan what is your source for homunculus block being based on the enemy's fluid level? 

@Achimrst you can Wrack off-eq from Educing, so it would be redundant to not Educe purely in favour of trying to Wrack.

Zii

Typo'd.  Fix'd.  The message was "You have to wait for temper balance".  You don't -have- to, but its more effective.

@aduan which prime do you use for your homuculus?  One of them raises fluids when the homunculus attacks.  It made a huge difference for me.

Achimrst

Jovolo said:

Temper is 4 seconds though. (Exactly a Wrack and Truewrack balance.)

@Aduan what is your source for homunculus block being based on the enemy's fluid level? 

@Achimrst you can Wrack off-eq from Educing, so it would be redundant to not Educe purely in favour of trying to Wrack.

4s for an untempered wrack? I don't remember it taking quite that long...but it has been a while since I tested it. I looked at a log I have of it and I regained balance from wracking at 1.8 seconds. I just had to wait for Equilibrium to wrack again.

Jovolo

1.5 for a wrack, 2.5 for a truewrack, on a tempered humour. As I said a wrack and a truewrack balance.

Achimrst

Jovolo said:

1.5 for a wrack, 2.5 for a truewrack, on a tempered humour. As I said a wrack and a truewrack balance.

I suppose it would depend on what they were educing, EDUCE IRON if I remember right is about 4s but EDUCE TIN is significantly lower. So although I have never tested it, an idea would be to EDUCE TIN, and Wrack for clumsy to reflect a portion of the attack and definitely keep Sulpher defense up for sipping and stacking Constitution? I'm just trying to think of something to help out here, but I do definitely know that Constitution increases the bleed on a homunculus.

Xith

Tin/Iron and inundate choleric or even melancholic against damagers. They'll either slow down or get aurified.
I haven't played alch in a while but I do remember the tanking bein tough.

They do lack some in room hindering at first but if you temper two humours they have to pay more attention to the affs they get.

What's the random vs. specified true wrack balances? I can't remember which was faster

Xith

What is choleric fail chance for cures?

Crono

Hehehe.....wrack off.....

Xith

So I dug up an older alch thread.

Choleric can block tree, bloodboil, and I'm assuming passive cures too. Don't know how high the chance is but that means alchs can temporarily lock without using paralysis.

And they can temporarily disable focus with homunculus shriek. So temper and truewrack choleric/phlegmatic affs and as soon as asthma and slickness are both stuck, if you get balance before they're cured...

Homunc shriek + wrack anorexia. Should be locked for 2.5 seconds and you can wrack impatience before they get that back. Then just down to relying on choleric to screw tree over.

Other question: how long does phlegm last, like 2.5 or 5 seconds?

Kui

I'm looking to meet someone I guess in Hashan whos a trans alchemist fighter. I'm not into doing the whole "evil" thing really to go to Mhaldor and I've always played a character that was either Ashtani or Mhaldorian. trying to do something different with my Alchemist so if you are especially from Cyrene, Hashan, or Maybe even Targossa send me a PM here on the forums. I'm looking for discretion as I dont want my alt broadcasted anymore. Thanks in Advance.

Oh. I'm not great at introcucing myself in game. I have a hard time putting words together to keep it IC on OOC things so please be patient in tells. I'm still readjusting and trying to get back into the game

hope that made sense. trying a new approach that is where I try not to sound rude :P

Vithincus

So how do people like the recent changes? How has it changed combat?

Arador

By the looks of it, it should pummel momentum classes. Set up classes should have it a little easier since they can stay paralysed for a bit and catch up on temper curing, but in general Alchemist should be very viable as a locking class now.

Illideus

Speaking of momentum classes... which classes fit into that category?

Arador

Most that require constant affliction to overpower curing for the lock. Apostate, Serpent, Occultist most notably. Classes that utilize breaks are prep classes like Monks, Knights, Blademasters. There are some hybrids like Shaman for example.