Toteming Idea

Anedhel

Probably going to get shot down, but!

Change toteming so that it's not a period of time elapsed, but rather a number of 'You continue implanting the totem to the land, calling on your runelore to bind the one to the other.' messages that binds a totem to the ground (time between messages remains unchanged). This way, if you get interrupted, you can pick it up where you left off, within reason (say, a two-minute window or something to pick it up again?). Not long enough to have a fight and come back, but rather, if you do something silly and break toteming, you don't have to start all over again.

Messages gathered by one totemer don't carry over to another (no relay-race toteming), and if another person begins to implant, the count's reset in that room for the last person to use the implant command.

The advantage of a runic gauntlet shouldn't be changed. I don't suggest changing uproot; since uproot's an inherently hostile action, it makes sense that you have to be completely still to concentrate on undoing another runelorist's work.

Not a huge change, but maybe it'll make us unlucky few a bit happier?

Sena

I don't see what the two parts of your suggestion have to do with each other. Why would it being based on messages rather than time (which it very well could be already, there's no way to tell either way) have any effect on whether or not it can be resumed? It seems to me that the only difference between time-based and message-based is that you'd lose some time when resuming if it was message-based (since any time between messages wouldn't count).

Beyond that, being able to resume implanting within about 10 seconds of an interruption (two minutes is way too long), with some restrictions, sounds good. It should only be allowed once per implant, so if you break it twice you have to start over. Leaving the room should break it instantly, no chance to resume.

Instead of being able to resume it when you make a mistake though, I'd prefer if it was harder to make those mistakes in the first place. Maybe there could be some ability (or general command) that lets you focus on what you're doing, causing any commands you enter to have some sort of confirmation before they go through and cancel the implant/splice/whatever. For example, you could be prompted to "agree" before it goes through, or maybe you'd just have to send the command twice within a short window (send it once and get a warning, send it again within a few seconds and it will actually go through), or add an aeon-like delay before any command goes through, with a way to cancel the command during that delay if you don't want to send it.

Anedhel

Fair enough re: messages vs. time. I just thought it'd be easier to handle the interruptions with messages, from the admin point of view, and, well, because dicking around and interrupting yourself a ton should make it take longer.

The reason I don't particularly care for the one-mulligan-only thing is that there are sometimes things you need to do on the spot that require multiple commands. Writing logs in different orgs, for instance, getting something from a letter, handing something to someone (drop selfishness and hand the thing over are two commands), etc.

I don't really see why it should be uber-restrictive, it's not like toteming's a particularly relevant RP element, and toteming on uncontested ground shouldn't be that big of a hassle (if you get attacked, under my system, when toteming, you'll probably not get your attacker to go away in two minutes or whatever the time is). It's fine to not let people leave the room, though, that's fair.

Sena

Anedhel said:

The reason I don't particularly care for the one-mulligan-only thing is that there are sometimes things you need to do on the spot that require multiple commands. Writing logs in different orgs, for instance, getting something from a letter, handing something to someone (drop selfishness and hand the thing over are two commands), etc.

I was thinking it would allow you to resume once, not just allow one command. So if you interrupt the implanting, you can enter however many commands you'd like, all that matters is that you resume within X seconds (whatever the time limit is).

Anedhel

Ohhh! I guess that's a step in the right direction, but if the penalty is that it takes you longer to finish, I don't see why it should be limited to once. Difference of opinions, I guess! (As far as I'm concerned, if you want to interrupt yourself however many messages it takes, and wait the full two minutes, you can spend an hour on a single totem, stuck in the same room, s'your choice )

Sena

If you can just stop and resume as many times as you want, you can fight (or do other things) while implanting, as long as you resume periodically. I'd like this is a way to quickly recover from a mistake or even let you intentionally stop and resume in case there's something urgent you need to do for a moment, but it shouldn't be a way to let you stop toteming for an hour and come back to it later.

Anedhel

I did specify within a certain time limit in the first post, didn't I? I think I said two minutes, for the sake of argument, but shorter's fine!

ETA: Also, the you-can't-leave-the-room thing is sensible, which should also limit you walking off and doing other things.

Sena

Anedhel said:

I did specify within a certain time limit in the first post, didn't I? I think I said two minutes, for the sake of argument, but shorter's fine!

ETA: Also, the you-can't-leave-the-room thing is sensible, which should also limit you walking off and doing other things.

I'm not sure what this is responding to. If it's my last post: My point is that, if you can continue as many times as you want, then you can do whatever you want (in the room at least, if it has that limitation) for as long as you want and come back to the implanting later. You could sleep, kill someone, chat for a while, do a bunch of inkmilling and refining, etc. and then 2 hours later pick up the implanting where you left off. All you have to do is re-start the implanting every 2 minutes or 10 seconds or whatever (even without any intention of actually continuing), and it doesn't matter what else you do.

Anedhel

Well, you have to stay still for however long the messages take to come through. The only thing that actually changes is that you can resume, if you break your toteming, a little while later (even 5 seconds is fine, whatever). You're still paused and toteming the full time it currently takes to implant. You can't just use the implant command however many times and it'll be done.

Trey

What about a function where multiple people can work a single totem? Implant only, so no raids where they strip them out of the ground like mad, but say you can get assistance from other runelorists, each one reducing the time it takes by 10%, to a max of four helpers (40% quicker), only the main person implanting owning a runic gauntlet affecting any further. Thoughts? Totem implanting is mostly city work, so it'd be akin to multiple people repairing the same room after a raid.

Bluef

I would just be happy if they would (finally) remove the 60+ messages that an uproot gives whether you're in the realm or not. The spam is blargh.

Toteming is pretty fast though, especially with a gauntlet. I don't really see the *need* for this kind of change. 

Kyrra

I do a lot of toteming and don't feel the need for this. About the only time you're going to be interrupted is by another player. No mobs respawn that fast in the time it takes to implant with a gauntlet.

If you don't have the time to totem, don't start. It's only like 10-15 minutes anyway and you can check/respond to messages, and do a whole bunch of other things while you do it anyways.

Nizaris

Wouldn't this be a sizable buff with combat implications due to being able to keep mass up?

EDIT: Oh, implanting not uprooting. Hrm. It's definitely less of a big deal, but it might still have implications.

Kyrra

Nizaris said:

Wouldn't this be a sizable buff with combat implications due to being able to keep mass up?

It's a non issue if you own a shackle.

Sena

Nizaris said:

Wouldn't this be a sizable buff with combat implications due to being able to keep mass up?

Yes, but it's already possible with a shackle.

Xith

The only issue with faster group implanting is raid griefing. Not inside cities but anywhere they find without a totem, even on approach to a city... implanting. 

Unrelated idea, I think it's a slight shame that totems lose potency in 1v1 cause people just squint and snipe if the runist is propping. Wondered about a temporary implant where the runist takes 10 seconds to do a temporary implant that only lasts 60-90 seconds. Would let them create a temporary maze of a few types of totems that would automatically fall after. More strategizing I guess.

Daklore

@Xith I actually classleaded something like that once, it didn't fly, unfortunately. Feel free to try again with a better idea(my idea was a three-slot totem, of course, because I didn't think a full 6-slot would be balanced... but, what do I know about balance) And, in the long run, most people only care about the transfix anyway in 1v1 combat. And of course, to do it under normal circumstances, means other propping a totem... or giving up their uruz/isaz or whatever they decide to use for passive combat runes.

As to implant/uproot times... With a gauntlet, it's much more managable, I think the problem is more how easy it is for you to accidentally disrupt implant. Typo a command you can normally do while toteming, and you screw up the toteming(I have done this, it's as simple as typing sya instead of say). If we could get some way to "restrict" ourselves in totem mode so we could avoid accidentally disrupting, that'd be nice. But, probably harder than it sounds.

Aerek

It's my understanding that the primary reason that toteming is so restrictive is because it's designed to make you helpless while you do it. That prevents totem'ing during actual combat, especially in hostile territory.

If you can implant totem, apply mass, implant totem, sip health, implant totem, touch shield, then it becomes possible to implant totems even while under attack from opponents, and that's exactly what the current system is trying to prevent.

Anedhel

Edit: Nevermind. I'm not sure I have the patience to explain how and why the concerns raised are irrelevant

Aerek

Icon battles, big events like Xhaiden Dale or the battle for the Underworld, prolonged shrine conflict, and large-scale raids all see totems implanted in hostile territory. Every now and then, even the usual skirmishing between Marks or  factions sees "illegal" totems implanted as simply as provocations or to annoy opponents.

Don't think about fighting done while toteming in terms of 1v1, think about it in groups of 3v3 or more. If someone is implanting a totem on your doorstep, right now all you have to do is make that guy do -anything- to stop it. If you attack that guy, he either dies or defends himself, either way losing all the progress he's made on the totem.

Under your proposal, the guy implanting can stop to defend himself when attacked, kill your group with his group, (Which sometimes only takes seconds) and then continue implanting, right where he left off. Even if he dies, he could be rezzed and continue his work. That would make it much, much harder to prevent a hostile force from implanting a totem where you didn't want them to.

You don't see a lot of offensive totem'ing because it's so difficult at the moment. If you make it less difficult, make it possible for people stop/start while under periodic or sporadic attack, we could start seeing it happen, and I'm not sure we want that.

Anedhel

I really don't think you can fight being off balance all the time (which is what happens if you use the implant command every time you've unpaused). Limit the window in the OP to five seconds, and there's no way someone can fight paused for six-ish (which I think is what implant plus the first 'You continue to bind blah blah' message takes to come up) seconds, unpause, cure(?), do something, lose balance for a ton of time. If they manage to do that, kudos to them, I guess? I can't see it being viable.

Also, I'm fairly certain since Icons aren't really a thing anymore, and the Icon areas on Nishnatoba are already totemed (I think you're thinking uproot? Not sure.), uprooting's more the issue than implanting, and this wouldn't affect uprooting.

If you really want, and it's -that- big a concern (which, to be completely honest, I can't see), change it so that this only affects totems you implant in the City you're a member of (no benefit to rogues).

Xith

Overall runelore could use looking at, just because totems are a little stagnant. At a certain level people don't even care about them because with either metawake or soft focus up, they do nothing, and the latter actually requires the double wunjo runing approach

Achimrst

I just want to go on the record as saying, Eff totems. Make them a trade skill and implement this idea.

Nim

Anedhel said:

If you really want, and it's -that- big a concern (which, to be completely honest, I can't see), change it so that this only affects totems you implant in the City you're a member of (no benefit to rogues).

Could include city allies... and maybe home owner allies for out-of-sub homes. That way totem contracters can still benefit, while keeping it from being used in hostile territory.

Daklore

@Anedhel the point @Aerek is trying to make, is that if I were to be able to "tally up time" toward an implant complete(I as in me, since I am a Runewarden), then during an offensive attack by a group of Cyrenians(yes, laugh at the imagery) could effectively entrench into a position and gradually implant a defensive totem which would make our beachhead even harder to assail once implant is complete. Because no matter what, I could get time toward the totem implant as long as the group can keep me from dieing as long as I resume implant within the down-time window. And that they can survive being zerged. I wouldn't even need to fight, just continue implanting.

Compared to now, where all you have to do is shoot an arrow at me and I'll either have to stop toteming to sip health, or get killed(or afflicted with paralysis or shot to sleep which will interrupt the toteming process as well). And that is why we don't have "tally up time" for toteming, and why it is a bad idea.

Conversely, yes, Runewardens lack a way to effectively make use of their totem in smaller open-area skirmishes, and we know it. We don't like it, but there has so far, not been a realistic way of addressing this issue without overbuffing Runewardens, who... I am loathe to admit, are fairly well balanced in the state of the world today... well, okay, we might actually be this when they re-work weapons... but still.

Anedhel

If people want to implant in hostile territory, they'll find a way to do it (reflections/aura spring to mind). But, like I said, change it so that it only works in territory of a City you're a member of or even allied to. Takes away the combat implication, for the most part.

Xith

Used to be able to lyre a propping runist, right?

Alrena

Xith said:

Used to be able to lyre a propping runist, right?

Grove users still can barrier a propping/implanting runist. With the abundance of dragons, it's not too much of an issue, though. And soulspears. Bloody soulspears.

Achimrst

Alrena said:

Xith said:

Used to be able to lyre a propping runist, right?

Grove users still can barrier a propping/implanting runist. With the abundance of dragons, it's not too much of an issue, though. And soulspears. Bloody soulspears.

If you could hide behind a totem to not get hit by soulspears, I would be pro totems.