Factional Classes For Hashan And Cyrene

Xith

Kyrra said:

Can you imagine Runie Mizik or Earionduil in Cyrene?

That's exactly the problem though. Cities that don't have conflict engines or exclusive classes can't draw awesome fighters. If you want to be an apostate with necro for example, you have to join Mhaldor. A Druid with soul Rez etc.
You don't have to join Cyrene to be an outstanding bard fighter, and in fact you're less likely to join Cyrene to fight because they have far fewer Artie whores so you know you'll die a lot.

Top tiers follow conflict. Conflict follows rp clashes. So if your ideology is cookies or neutrality, people don't switch to your city as much.

Xith

They're both neutral. But Chaos is neutral too despite being a little dark themes.

What Hashan could focus around is spiritual neutrality. The spirit realm/world hasn't been delved into very far but I don't believe the spirits side with light evil or chaos but rather themselves.
I think shamans would be best to factionalise with them. It's an underplayed class anyway. And they're neutral priests. Not sure how necessary runelore is for them to keep but--

Cyrene would be a fine candidate for neutrality except that they'd have to forbid or accept apostate/forestal/occultist/priest
outright.

Also do we know yet how factional restrictions will persist with multiclass?

Shirszae

Xith said:

Can you imagine Runie Mizik or Earionduil in Cyrene?

That's exactly the problem though. Cities that don't have conflict engines or exclusive classes can't draw awesome fighters. If you want to be an apostate with necro for example, you have to join Mhaldor. A Druid with soul Rez etc. You don't have to join Cyrene to be an outstanding bard fighter, and in fact you're less likely to join Cyrene to fight because they have far fewer Artie whores so you know you'll die a lot. Top tiers follow conflict. Conflict follows rp clashes. So if your ideology is cookies or neutrality, people don't switch to your city as much.

 You make a funny leap of logic from 'Top tiers' to 'people.'

Mannimar

See, all of this seems nearly pointless, since it's been repeated over and over that Hashan and Cyrene aren't getting classes, and new classes aren't even in the long term at this is time.

Don't get me wrong... I would love to see it happen though.

Tarkanian

Katzchen said:

Alchemist could work well for Hashan, especially if the replacement for transmutation was some sort of skill to do with astronomy. Cyrene has never fought, and doesn't seem to want to, and doesn't really need a factional class - there is nothing wrong with a pacifist city, plenty of people love it there. There would be way too much fallout if you tried to make Cyrene the only city with bards or runewardens.

@Tarkanian Hashan isn't trying to be neutral, they're trying to be 'Night/Darkness'. It's just not well defined, and everyone has their own idea of what that is. Also some of the population -do- want neutral, so they can't even decide on that.

@katzchen: agreed, my post was written in haste. The whole night/darkness concept is, quite frankly, misleading, in that there's no real delineation of what constitutes night-ly or darkness-y ideologies. the whole thing is so figurative, to say the least.

Achimrst

Xith said:

They're both neutral. But Chaos is neutral too despite being a little dark themes. What Hashan could focus around is spiritual neutrality. The spirit realm/world hasn't been delved into very far but I don't believe the spirits side with light evil or chaos but rather themselves. I think shamans would be best to factionalise with them. It's an underplayed class anyway. And they're neutral priests. Not sure how necessary runelore is for them to keep but-- Cyrene would be a fine candidate for neutrality except that they'd have to forbid or accept apostate/forestal/occultist/priest outright. Also do we know yet how factional restrictions will persist with multiclass?

I completely agree that Shaman do make sense as a priest class for Hashan, although the problem is still that most Shaman aren't in Hashan. Andraste, Bluef, Howdin, Alaric, Tema, Owynn, Myself ...etc etc are the Shaman I know in-game and none of them are Hashani. Even when my character was a Spiritwalker there were only two Shaman in the house. Tema and Alaric (Alaric having left the house) While on the flip side, there are lots of active Alchemists in Hashan, Vayne, Hellen, Kroac, Aduan when last I checked.

Yet forcing the majority of those who play the class to join the city when the majority is outside the city just doesn't make sense, especially when Alchemist can fit the role better. Alchemists may right now serve as a class that makes curatives but when trade skills come out the need for an Alchemist looks like it will change completely. Instead of being a support class who makes cures for everyone they can be something completely different and focus on Alchemy and RP with Alchemy instead of just being the group that makes cures for everyone in the city.

Jovolo

How is Cyrene neutral? They allow certain factional classes... and then disallow others. They obviously lean towards Good over Evil and Chaos. They would exempt themselves from any factional sway if they were actually neutral, but they still cling to Devotion.

Also, to have a "factional class", your faction needs to have some control over that class, be it: Through controlling interest such as the Bardic License I saw earlier, or flat out removing a skill such as Vodun/Alchemy from Shamans/Alchemists that work against Hashan or join other cities.

Hashan and Alchemists seems like a more likely event. It could be done due to severing of the anchor tuning to all other cities, but it also completely works against the entire reason alchemist was implemented. When Transmutation is separated from the class, it would be a fine idea though, but sorry to say you won't be pulling in any interested players unless their new third skill makes the class actually fun to PvP with.

Tl;dr HashanxAlchemist? Sure. After multiclass.

Tahquil

... I'm going to have to come in and say a no to Alchemists being factionalised. I think a lot of people are looking at Shaman and Alchemists as what they are now and not the lore behind it.

Alchemist anchors are split over the five cities that chose them and each city has it's own unique anchor. Alchemists draw on that specific alchemical energy to do whatever they need to do with it. If they didn't the energies of Sapience would build up and go out of control and you would have animals turning into various metals again. The spread between different cities helps keep them in check. Factionalising Alchemist would be, from a storyline perspective, a bad thing.

As for Shamans they've had a solid footing in Hashan from their birth until the Curia decided to split off. However that doesn't negate the fact that they had heavy Hashani ties beforehand.

(The fuck... did some of my writing suddenly went a size up?)

Vansittart

There's a lot in this thread about how factional classes don't necessarily fit into Hashan/Cyrene right now and a lot of it is right.  The alchemist intro event does make it difficult to "take alchemy away" from the other cities.  Runelore sits quite well in both Hashan and Cyrene. 

But! One of the awesome things about Achaea is that it changes.  Do people really remember how much of a massive shitstorm it was (still is, to a certain extent) when Shallam reclaimed Devotion properly?  And now it just feels like the way of things.  It would be a very easy thing indeed to re-orient Achaea so that Hashan and Cyrene do get a factional class.  (Unstudied use of alchemy poses another danger to the world, the Masters return and do a big event so that it becomes "protected" knowledge with the path to the metals barred from the unstudious (i.e. everyone who doesn't study in the Hashani planetarium).  Also easy to do with runelore/shamanism (the spirits aiiee! They are restless!).

The foundational question is "would this be cool and the right way to go"?  It's a difficult, but interesting, question.  I think it would be great, personally.  The factional/class dynamics in Achaea right now feel a bit "work-in-progress-y".  It just doesn't feel *right* that Hashan and Cyrene are left without their own class to control.  It makes them feel a bit less important and, although they certainly haven't helped themselves in that regard in a lot of ways, I think Achaea would be better if all six cities were firing on all cylinders.  Class control for cities (like guilds before them) gives heft to an organisation - makes it feel essential.  And yes, there are pitfalls in that (see also: guilds), it's a potentially awesome thing.

Also people would yell a lot and that is always fun to watch.

Averi

I can't say much about Hashan because I don't play it.  But I'd argue that Cyrene does have classes that it leans towards; it's just less clear cut and defined than other factions because as a city, we don't have one strong uniting policy. 

We used to be little-Shallam. I hated that. It made no sense. I'm glad Shallam sank and turned into Targ and I am hoping they take away devotion users from us entirely ((Sorry @Melodie)).  The city has had much more of its own identity after all of that instead of leeching from Shallam. 

As a lot of people have pointed out, we have Runewardens and Bards.  Although Runewardens seem to be everywhere, we seem to have a sort of unspoken, unenforced monopoly on bards.  It doesn't mean that there are no bards elsewhere, granted.  It means that we're probably the only city that can pull out a chorale every month if we so choose to do so. 

However, the nature of the bard is very neutral.  Our code seems to be respect people from all walks of life; learn to perform FOR the audience regardless of who they may be.  I remember being asked in one of our practical exams, "How would you perform for a [Mhaldorian/Shallamese/Other Factional] audience? What kind of things would you say? What would be taboo?"  We encourage our students to get to know other cities as they might be the ones to pay us one day. 

I do not think Cyrene should get a factional class at all. None of the Gods that patron us fit the philosophy of the city entirely. Some may say that Scarlatti is the overarching theme, but He welcomes many to his concerts who we, as a city, consider to be enemies.  Looking at all of the deities, I'd argue that the Gods seem to fit the overall theme of Culture and Commerce, rather than of Arts.  We have the God of Performance, Smithing and Crafting, and of the Sea (sea trade and stuff since piracy and theft is illegal).

Instead of being defined by a class, we are defined by what we do [Ridiculous amounts of parties/performances/designs/amazingly good shop owners] and what we don't do [raid, be extremist, whatever].  As a pacifist city, we are united by our love for peace, arts, business, and a few other things. I think that is enough.  

Hashan seems less defined in both the extremist and neutral sense from the brief periods of time I've been in it.  I think they would actually benefit from a factional class or a few strong class-based houses (like the bard/warden house) where they do cool stuff you can't really do/do as easily outside of it. But as a city, it's pretty different from Cyrene.

Edit: I just realized this, but what I said above actually matches why instead of us threatening to raid/crush our enemies, we threaten to not do business with them. xD

Achimrst

Tahquil said:

... I'm going to have to come in and say a no to Alchemists being factionalised. I think a lot of people are looking at Shaman and Alchemists as what they are now and not the lore behind it.

Alchemist anchors are split over the five cities that chose them and each city has it's own unique anchor. Alchemists draw on that specific alchemical energy to do whatever they need to do with it. If they didn't the energies of Sapience would build up and go out of control and you would have animals turning into various metals again. The spread between different cities helps keep them in check. Factionalising Alchemist would be, from a storyline perspective, a bad thing.

As for Shamans they've had a solid footing in Hashan from their birth until the Curia decided to split off. However that doesn't negate the fact that they had heavy Hashani ties beforehand.

(The fuck... did some of my writing suddenly went a size up?)

Alchemists are just as tied to Twilight as Shaman, and they are an active organization in Hashan. The institute of Alchemy is practically a part of the academy of Hashan as well as the large unused observatory that they have there. I'm not suggesting that they force Alchemists to join Hashan, but with the institute they can draw Alchemists to the city through influence alone. Not to mention that Alchemists IC are mostly seen as the people who make minerals so you don't have to rely on herbs and potions.

Alchemist lore has heavy ties to Hashan through the prime metals which are used in transmutation and Alchemy. The anchors themselves are a part of the ties to the prime metals, from how I see it. If transmutation is taken from Alchemists and made a trade skill a runewarden could get the ability in any city and transmutate curatives for a city and the person doesn't have to devote their character to the city simply because that city needs an alchemist to make curatives. (Not saying that is why Alchemists stay in cities!) They could than have an organization such as what the Occultists or Serpentlords and places like that have.

Oh the Shamans, if you have ever read the history of Hashan you would know that Shamans have basically gone to war with Hashan as a Hashani house! Prompting something called a City-Guild Charter, (now a city-house charter) which even today causes problems in Hashan. As a house Shaman were banned from participating in the city for a time and even withdrew alliances with other Hashani houses. If you want to see where all the crap starts, it's always been the Spiritwalkers with that city. (Well not always but I hope you get what I mean by that)

Blujixapug

Vansittart said:

Also people would yell a lot and that is always fun to watch.

Obviously this is a strong motivating factor.

Vansittart said:

The foundational question is "would this be cool and the right way to go"?

This is not something I went into. I didn't attempt to justify it - because it's tough to justify - I just skipped ahead to brainstorming.

I think it would certainly be cool. New classes are cool. Strongly thematic organisations are cool.

Asking whether it's the right way to go forces you to take into account all sorts of inconvenient stuff like how many coders Achaea has (two? ish?), whether this really needs to be done (nobody's crying out for it), whether the cities in question can handle it (outlook not so good), whether people are willing to inflict and endure the trauma and manage the whole process (ugh what a hassle; Targ is still technically on the operating table), and whether we actually have the right idea at all about how to proceed (this nation-building shit's hard, and we ain't got no Benjamin Franklin).

From an abstract perspective I think it would be a very good thing to do. In my view the ideal situation in this game is for all six cities to have strong identities, and for them to regularly shift in and out of alliance and enmity with each other. Right now certain cities tend to magnetise together and stick that way, and there are certain directions in which the power pendulum never swings.

As I see it there are a few options for the class issue. None of them are great.

1. Make new classes.

Pros: new classes! Transition hurts nobody. Cons: takes hella time to design and code, ongoing PK balance problems.

2. Factionalise existing classes (eg. bard, shaman).

Pros: don't need to code new classes. Cons: severely alienate players forced to change either class or city.

3. Leave existing classes neutral, but give them strong, unique benefits when in factional cities (eg. additional abilities, reskinned skills).

Pros: don't need to code new classes OR force anyone to switch city. Cons: resultant factional identity is significantly weaker, class association is less special/emblematic.

4. Don't give factions any factional classes.

Pros: requires zero work - the least and therefore best amount of work. Cons: faction gets no classes and is terrible as a direct consequence.

5. ??? unknown fifth option

Pros: fixes all problems elegantly. Cons: has yet to be conceived.

Hey what if you made like factional races instead

Vayne

Alchemy could easily be reworked to be Hashan-only considering the potential outcome of the trade changes, and as @Vansittart mentioned, it would be far from impossible for some event to consolidate the practice of alchemy to Hashan(The anchors did just fine regulating the ether energies before the cabal attuned the cities to them, and as afar as I understand, we merely use them as conduits into it).

Yet, as has been reiterated several times, several things would need to happen:

1) Hashan would need to get its act together, which I am hopeful about with the potential awesome of an Ourania/Twilight tag team.
2) Hashan would have to prove they are the place for said class to operate.
3) An event would have to take place that gives legitimate reason for Hashan to take control of Alchemy. (If #2 is accomplished I can easily see the Cauda Pavonis giving sole control to the city)
4) The Alchemist class would need to be revamped to be a bit more potent and have a unique play style.

I am also confused why people keep saying Hashan and Cyrene cannot be factional, they are factions...There seems to be a misnomer about what that word really means. Even if a faction is neutral, they could still be a faction, the "neutral faction." There is virtually no reason any "faction" cannot have a class that embodies the nature of said faction. You can be the "Forest Faction" or the "Good faction" or the "Evil Faction" or the "Chaos Faction" or the "Art Faction" or the "Pacifist Faction" or the "Pirate Faction" or the "Dark Faction" or the "Light Faction" etc. etc. etc.

Eld

Blujixapug said:

Hey what if you made like factional races instead

I'm by no means the first to say it, but would reincarn arachnoi in a heartbeat.

Averi

Blujixapug said:

Hey what if you made like factional races instead

Then we'd all be really racist.

Jacen

Embodying the nature of the faction isn't enough though, or at least it isn't interesting enough on its own. Alchemist, Shaman, Runewarden, and Bard have all been argued to embody their faction's nature in varying degrees in this thread; you could argue that that makes them their factional classes, but they aren't effective ones. Having Paladin as a factional class would be a lot less special if Ashtan had fully enabled Paladins of their own. The classes' effectiveness needs to be tied into their factional city in some way for it to have that "wow" factor.

I would also agree that Hashan and Cyrene are or can be factions - neutrality doesn't make it non-factional. The only requirement that I consider for factionalization is like-mindedness, which Hashan doesn't have.

"Protect Creation at all costs"

"Purge weakness and grow in strength"

"Protect Nature and the natural way of things"

"The End is coming"

"Chivalry and Art" -- I'm ignorant regarding Cyrene, sorry

"That guy is trying to change things, let's take him down" <- huh, maybe Hashan -is- a faction after all?

 

Silas

Why are people worrying about existing runies/bards/shamans(/alchemists, I guess)? Just decree that these are now the factional classes of Cyrene and Hashan, have the cities and their Patrons publicly reclaim earth magic, the arts, darkness and the night, and take things from there. As a city leader, I'd gladly give up access to those four classes for the sake of enlivening the game world, and would welcome any changes like this with open arms.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, make it so.

Hellen

While alchemist could be revamped to make it a pure Hashani thing, I'd be both happy and sad for that. With such a revamp would come a lot more flavour. However, it would also mean that everyone else would lose out.

I could think of ways that Alchemist could fit in with every city:
-Mhaldorian chirugeons working to discover the true meaning of pain and suffering through the body
-Targossian alchemists diligently mapping out the rising locations of the Sun, and working to empower their side with Gold and the very essence of Ethian, which gave rise to Aurora.
-Perhaps Cyrenian alchemists working to create the -best- metallurgical creations or instruments with the purest tones.
-Maybe the Ashtani alchemist, doing as they pleased, or in terms of the Babelonian alchemist, studying the very foundation of the Ether to learn how best to disrupt Creation itself.

The alchemist class was clearly made to be as neutral as possible, to allow every city but Eleusis to take advantage of it. I guess you could say that Twilight is the only one who could claim "Ownership" of it, but even then, it would be more along the lines of forcing them out into the open. He could claim that since he is the reason for their resurgence, he commands it, but I don't think that would be -true-. Simply that Hashan is, thematically, the most likely place for alchemy to flourish right now.

The big question is, as others have asked before, would this be worth it? I don't think it would be. If another factional class for Hashan and Cyrene were to pop up, I'm thinking they would need to be new ones, though that would take a -long- time to do, and would heavily depend on the state of both Cyrene and Hashan. Alchemist, actually, would be relatively -easy- to consolidate to Hashan, but what about Bards, Shamans, Serpents, or whatever else gets decided?

I'll talk more on this later, but to summarize, I've not been convinced that restricting already-existing classes to Hashan and Cyrene would be worth it.

Vayne

Just because there is potential does not mean it is or will be utilized.

Achimrst

Silas said:

Why are people worrying about existing runies/bards/shamans(/alchemists, I guess)? Just decree that these are now the factional classes of Cyrene and Hashan, have the cities and their Patrons publicly reclaim earth magic, the arts, darkness and the night, and take things from there. As a city leader, I'd gladly give up access to those four classes for the sake of enlivening the game world, and would welcome any changes like this with open arms.

@Tecton, @Sarapis, make it so.

Yes, please give Hashan exclusive access to it's one Shaman so the 20 others outside Hashan are forced to join. That will totally fix Hashan.

Asmodron

Remake Vodun, agreed.

Silas

Nobody outside of those factions will be forced to join, and nobody outside of those factions, as evidenced by the lacklustre admin stance on Cyrenian Devotionists, will have to change class. It'll only affect things going forward if a change like this is made, strengthening the identities of Hashan and Cyrene as cities and negatively impacting nobody (except perhaps a couple of Ashtani class hoppers).

Jules

My only problem with how that has happened is that we can continue to receive new devotionists.  That's what I truly can't understand.  It's bad for us, and bad for Targossas.

Melodie

Will make a more general comment about all of this later when I've pondered on it a bit, but...

@Jules - you haven't been playing lately, or not enough. The Devotion population in Cyrene has severely dwindled, especially since my second excommunication. Most of Melodie's family (a good 60-75% were Devotionists) have changed class and moved on, Melodie's in the process of doing so herself. I can think of maybe three who currently retain a devo class that have any presence at all. The rest are mostly tinies who come and go and never stick around. I'd know, I was always keeping an eye on the population.

Obviously things -can- wane and wax, so maybe it's not forever, but at present it's definitely less of a presence than it has been in a while. Many of the devos who still retain it are very young or mostly dormant.

Carry on!

Silas

Jules is right. There are still new Cyrenian Devotionists, and I have no idea why. I hope that when Targ gets Houses the Mojushai/Wardens will stop accepting Paladins/Priests, but it still mystifies me why it's been allowed to continue thus far. It makes the whole stance a bit pointless.

Jules

Mel, I've said before that I'd be perfectly fine with people, especially certain "oldies" retaining their classes.  The example I used before was something to the effect of "we're not going to tell Czanthria she can't be a Paladin anymore, are we"?  

Achimrst

Silas said:

Nobody outside of those factions will be forced to join, and nobody outside of those factions, as evidenced by the lacklustre admin stance on Cyrenian Devotionists, will have to change class. It'll only affect things going forward if a change like this is made, strengthening the identities of Hashan and Cyrene as cities and negatively impacting nobody (except perhaps a couple of Ashtani class hoppers).

Ok, so all of the Shaman outside of Hashan have to quit Shaman so that the one Shaman in Hashan can do what exactly?

Silas

@Achimrst, you don't understand, so just assume I'm not talking to you. It'll be better for both of us.

Melodie

Jules said:

Mel, I've said before that I'd be perfectly fine with people, especially certain "oldies" retaining their classes.  The example I used before was something to the effect of "we're not going to tell Czanthria she can't be a Paladin anymore, are we"?  

Not saying you weren't, I was saying it's not really as big of a problem as I think you and Silas are making it out to be. It has waned significantly lately, as bad as it was when I first came back two years ago or so and the Lumeni were almost dead, with no real leaders or anyone around to talk about... anything.

I think they gave the Diaspora as a way to say "sink or swim", and right now, it's starting to sink more than swim. Obviously personally how I would like it to work out is different, but that's just plain facts from watching the population.

Sena

Achimrst said:

Silas said:

Nobody outside of those factions will be forced to join, and nobody outside of those factions, as evidenced by the lacklustre admin stance on Cyrenian Devotionists, will have to change class. It'll only affect things going forward if a change like this is made, strengthening the identities of Hashan and Cyrene as cities and negatively impacting nobody (except perhaps a couple of Ashtani class hoppers).

Ok, so all of the Shaman outside of Hashan have to quit Shaman so that the one Shaman in Hashan can do what exactly?

Silas is pointing out that you can restrict classes to a single city (even a strict hard-coded restriction like with forestals) without affecting anyone who already has that class. Just like there are still forestals in cities other than Eleusis. It only hinders people who want to join the class after the change is made.