Tank Changes

Antidas

While overall, I greatly prefer the new war system to the old one, I feel like there are some things that need to be changed regarding tanks.

First and foremost is that I, for one, am absolutely sick of walking through every single room in the city during/after a raid spamming L TANK to see if a tank was dropped there. I don't see any reason why someone should be able to sanction a raid, drop a tank in some obscure room on one side of the city, and then entrench themselves on the other end, all the while gaining kills that help that tank tick down. Rather, I think that a radius of some degree should be added to the tank. So long as a member of the raiding city is standing inside that radius when they land the killing blow on a member of the defending city, the kills should count towards the tank. However, if the raider exits that radius and kills someone, it shouldn't count. This will effectively limit the raid to a small area of the city, and still giving raiders a decent amount of mobility while still getting kills that help the tank.

Secondly, tanks that are placed when a sanctioned raid ends should either disappear entirely, or lose all stored charge. From what I understand during the most recent Ashtani raid on Targossas, they were able to sanction a raid, and get a portion of the way to destroying a room. The sanction ended, however, and they left. Then half an hour later, they came back and managed to re-sanction, and then blew up a tank they had had placed for the entire time. While I certainly admit I should have had someone check (the entire city), it shouldn't be possible to return so much later and still be able to use whatever charge was in a tank from an earlier raid.

Thoughts? Critiques? Insults? Go at it, tell me what you think

Cooper

Sounds pretty reasonable.

Peak

Sounds like someone didn't think of it first.

ETA In all seriousness, I like the way it is now. It adds a sense of "Find the halflings! Find the halflings!" (insert Uruk Hai gif [that I can't find])

Nizaris

I can understand leaving the tank there, as it's supposed to be possible to capture/disarm them for the experience. But, to add to @Antidas' point, maybe just a highlight of their room_desc would be good.

Peak

The magical thing about this, though, is that you can do it too. 

Nellaundra

I'm all for tanks being disarmed when the sanction is over through timeout or whatever, but I do like how right now you can even get the newbies involved by playing a game of 'find that bloody tank' if they dump it somewhere else.

Antidas

Peak said:

The magical thing about this, though, is that you can do it too. 

Just because both sides can do it, doesn't mean that its balanced or fun for anyone.

Antidas

Nizaris said:

I can understand leaving the tank there, as it's supposed to be possible to capture/disarm them for the experience. But, to add to @Antidas' point, maybe just a highlight of their room_desc would be good.

I'll be doing that, but highlight or not, I'm still not interested in running through the entire city all the time. Its just not fun.

Kafziel

New font power - tankreveal. Makes enemy tanks scream "COME  AT ME BRO  at <location>" on CT every 30 seconds

Nizaris

Kafziel said:

New font power - tankreveal. Makes enemy tanks scream "COME  AT ME BRO  at <location>" on CT every 30 seconds

Somehow, I think that hunting eidolons is less preferable to searching for tanks.

Jarrod

There was a discussion on ACC a month or so ago discussing this, including ideas to have there be a city-wide emote (The ringing of steel echoes throughout the city as the city of <city> activates a tank.) on ACTIVATE, a font power to provide tank locations, or tanks deactivating after sanction ending.

I can't remember what the feedback was at the time, but obviously nothing has happened from that. Not sure if the discussion just wasn't seen, or it's a low priority so it hasn't happened yet, or what.

Katzchen

Not sure if wiping the tank as soon as the sanction ends is a good idea. Could promote people more defenders journalling/leaving the city to end the sanction on purpose. Maybe have a slow decline after the sanction ends? Or more to the point notify the city of where the tank has been placed, then if they can't fix that within half an hour, they kinda deserve it when they get blown up. (Also solves problem A)

Silas

Just have tank locations show up in the logs when dropped inside your city. I don't think it's really productive or reasonable to expect a city to be checking 200+ rooms for a stray tank after every sanctioned raid, even though I can see the appeal of placing tanks away from your group.

The idea should be that only tanks you can reasonably defend with the group you have should be charged by the sanction, not any random tank that a serpent or occultist can squirrel away in a remote corner to come back and blow up later.

Blujixapug

Make it into a game. Have a little tank-detector thing that beeps cold or hot when you're getting close.

Jarrod

Encourage fights!

Every city enemy you kill during sanction charges up the Tank Finder, and when it's fully charged it tells you where all the tanks are in the city.

Jhui

^ I like that.

We were probably 30 or so deaths between the 5-6 of us to only about 15 kills.

The fact that they ended the raid and killed us should have revealed the tank for sure.  Outside of that, tank hiding is easily (easier for some) counterable and a fun little side game.

I don't really enjoy tank hiding from either side, but I can see why it's there and why some people might like to use it.

Zii

I agree with Jarrod.  Killing raiders should speed up the guards' search for the tanks.  Covering fire and a distraction so the guards can look safely.

A guard says, "A tank is spotted at the Crossroads!  Someone get here and disarm it!"

Strata

This actually got me to sign into the forums again. The fine print in @Antidas' post is "5 or 6 veiled Ashtani tried to raid us when we had twice the numbers, just no veil users on." You went on straight up zerg-mode and activated font.

Sure, there are issues with what you're saying. But I think before they get fixed, we need to stop crying for bandaid fixes because some aspect of the war system didn't work out in our favor.

The two main issues that I think need to be addressed first are: 1. Font needs completely reworked - and 2. Experience gain per kill for raiders needs to be turned back on.

There has not been any serious post such as yours, @Antidas, regarding the fact that no matter whom (regular combat people vs. inexperienced) nor how greatly you outnumber Ashtan, Targossas is gaming the system with the waiting games while the font builds up - and then you're going to come here and complain because we snuck a tank past you? I completely disagree with what is being asked for in this thread.

Nim

@Strata: Then make one? Dunno if things are broken, but one problem existing does not magically nullify another one.

Also whining about people whining is silly. Stop being silly. That's (TM) Pandora and CIJ Coalition of Fun Ltd. yo.

Antidas

Strata said:

This actually got me to sign into the forums again. The fine print in @Antidas' post is "5 or 6 veiled Ashtani tried to raid us when we had twice the numbers, just no veil users on." You went on straight up zerg-mode and activated font.

Sure, there are issues with what you're saying. But I think before they get fixed, we need to stop crying for bandaid fixes because some aspect of the war system didn't work out in our favor.

The two main issues that I think need to be addressed first are: 1. Font needs completely reworked - and 2. Experience gain per kill for raiders needs to be turned back on.

There has not been any serious post such as yours, @Antidas, regarding the fact that no matter whom (regular combat people vs. inexperienced) nor how greatly you outnumber Ashtan, Targossas is gaming the system with the waiting games while the font builds up - and then you're going to come here and complain because we snuck a tank past you? I completely disagree with what is being asked for in this thread.

Alright. I'll bite, and respond to your posts here.

Point one, during the raid defense that I led against 5-6 veiled Ashtani with a single veil of our own, unfortunately owned by a noncom, the font was not activated. It was earlier in the day, but I was not around for it. If you are going to add imaginary fine print to my post, then at least make sure you have the facts correct. Doing otherwise makes you look stupid

As per experience gain for raiders, I have no problem with it being turned back on. Hell, I was against it being removed in the first place, and I'm still against it now. That being said, I do understand why it was removed. As Nim pointed out, however, that does not nullify the problem in question.

Regarding the tank, I am not crying because you snuck a tank past me. I am "crying" because the tank held its charge -after- the raid ended and the raiders had been gone for over half an hour. I should have checked, sure, but that doesn't mean the mechanic is fair.

If you want a thread about the font, go for it. Personally, I hate when the raid leaders decide to activate font and then wait. However, there is nothing I can do regarding that when I am not leading, or am overruled by someone higher ranking than myself. That being said, as Nim pointed out, just because the font might need a change does not negate any of the problems I have brought up here.

In the future, if you want to respond to my thread, I would ask that you actually think through your response, and post it with a level head, rather than the way you handled your previous post.

Strata

Antidas said:

Strata said:

This actually got me to sign into the forums again. The fine print in @Antidas' post is "5 or 6 veiled Ashtani tried to raid us when we had twice the numbers, just no veil users on." You went on straight up zerg-mode and activated font.

Sure, there are issues with what you're saying. But I think before they get fixed, we need to stop crying for bandaid fixes because some aspect of the war system didn't work out in our favor.

The two main issues that I think need to be addressed first are: 1. Font needs completely reworked - and 2. Experience gain per kill for raiders needs to be turned back on.

There has not been any serious post such as yours, @Antidas, regarding the fact that no matter whom (regular combat people vs. inexperienced) nor how greatly you outnumber Ashtan, Targossas is gaming the system with the waiting games while the font builds up - and then you're going to come here and complain because we snuck a tank past you? I completely disagree with what is being asked for in this thread.

Alright. I'll bite, and respond to your posts here.

Point one, during the raid defense that I led against 5-6 veiled Ashtani with a single veil of our own, unfortunately owned by a noncom, the font was not activated. It was earlier in the day, but I was not around for it. If you are going to add imaginary fine print to my post, then at least make sure you have the facts correct. Doing otherwise makes you look stupid

As per experience gain for raiders, I have no problem with it being turned back on. Hell, I was against it being removed in the first place, and I'm still against it now. That being said, I do understand why it was removed. As Nim pointed out, however, that does not nullify the problem in question.

Regarding the tank, I am not crying because you snuck a tank past me. I am "crying" because the tank held its charge -after- the raid ended and the raiders had been gone for over half an hour. I should have checked, sure, but that doesn't mean the mechanic is fair.

If you want a thread about the font, go for it. Personally, I hate when the raid leaders decide to activate font and then wait. However, there is nothing I can do regarding that when I am not leading, or am overruled by someone higher ranking than myself. That being said, as Nim pointed out, just because the font might need a change does not negate any of the problems I have brought up here.

In the future, if you want to respond to my thread, I would ask that you actually think through your response, and post it with a level head, rather than the way you handled your previous post.

Font was activated within seconds after we arrived. But I understand it's your word vs. mine and you win in that regard.

You are also correct in asking for tank changes. I could have worded things better to say that while I don't disagree that there need to be changes to the way tanks are handled, I believe if the changes being asked for here regarding tanks go through, but the other things (font and/or experience gain) don't also get fixed, there will be even -more- incentive for the defending side to camp.

You and I both realize that without the things I mentioned also getting some attention, there is a likely possibility that the waiting game will continue to be the acceptable practice for "defending".

I have been told that there was discussion about font in ACC, but relying on forums as the only insight into the matters gives me the impression that whatever changes do take place will be entirely one-sided for the benefit of the Targossas playerbase.

Jinsun

Here's my general two cents. There's been a lot of talk about the raid specifics in general so I'm going to just tack on some issues that I see.

1. Tank and mobility. 

I understand the annoyance and why people assert that it shouldn't last after a raid or should be hidden. I don't really think that it -needs- to be fixed, and here's why: Raids typically involve stealth classes and have little tangible impact on the city.  To the first point, it's an awesome mechanic that Serpents have a special role outside of sniping during a raid now. That is an awesome utility! I mean really, how cool is that? It encourages something that was missing from the old system of melee then summon spark. It encourages strategy which is something that I think is very important to RP cities having a war ministry. Realistically, a lot of the fixes that have been suggested are overkill for a problem that is not, that big of a deal. Yesterday was the first time, to my knowledge, that hiding a tank and leaving was successful. It actually failed once earlier that month. As for highlighting, it would really nullify that added utility and strategy and gives you little benefit. The idea of a locater with deaths is really unattractive to me. Because many of the raid defenses are already borderline abused on many occasions. I'm afraid with a locater, we'll get in, be outnumbered, get font stacked, and burned before we can even set a tank. Then we're pretty much screwed if we try to. What is the result of not finding a tank? You get a room destroyed. Sure, it's annoying, but it's just part of it. Plus it's where your other classes can use their badass utility to try and detect people who will try to hide the tank. Monks and Priests for sure, can't priests locate people who are astraled? Or have a serpent phased. You know who to look for, and you're not defenseless to look for it. I just really think it doesn't need fixing.

2. Font

I really hate the font mechanic, and I think there are some easy fixes. I think a cap on font would be really useful. I asked around for highest font counts, and the highest seen so far was 53 in Targ. That is every single attack doing 153% of it's normal efficiency. I personally have seen a group out numbered by 6-7 get 30ish stacked on them before the other team even rushes. Now, not only do they have trouble filling the tank, they're taking 130% damage from a group bigger than them. That's a bit ridiculous. There may be a better solution than a straight out cap, maybe making font numbers linked to tank filling time or number of those present. Obviously, any system will have weaknesses, I just think getting a ton against you just for the sake of flattening you is not fun, and probably makes the proponent(s) shitty person or people.

3. Tank filling

This is the most concerning to me. Currently, filling a tank requires killing an enemy soldier in the city. The only problem is, most of the people that don't defend aren't citizens! A lot of times, I'd believe this just came from not conscripting, but there are several that I have seen actively involved in the military who never became soldiers! I'll give a brief list of those I know, just for emphasis. My apologies, they are all Targossian just because that has been my main raiding spot. @Szareine, @Morthif, @Gibbi, @Seifur (has participated in at least two raids, @Alaskar (a few defenses), @Qara, @Tahquil, @Jovolo (not super active, but has definitely dropped retardation on us) and @Bronislav (this one is obviously a joke). That's a fairly long list, and I know @Tahquil helped defend Targossas before she was admitted as a citizen. At this point to me, I think it looks like abuse. I think this because on numerous occasions, I've seen non-conscripted citizens used as scouts to look in the room or search for the tank around the area. Then they show up for the rush. The solution I'd propose is either slap the banhammer on those who  want to raid and defend without conscripting, change the metric to kills of any citizen within so many rooms of the tank (I don't like this one as it eliminates radiance kills), or my favorite solution, auto conscripting- if you kill/attack enemies on so many occasions in either city, you're signed up! This would discourage aforementioned abuse. To those tagged. You've been tagged, do the right thing for your citizen and for the game and go get conscripted! 

Hasar

Can't trace veiled serpents in phase, astral or blkwind even if veiled apo or priest

Jinsun

@Hasar They still have to unastral, and they hit mindnet when they come in.

Jovolo

Dude I rushed your raiding group solo with retardation once weeks ago. I'm not active, haha.

furthermore: you can trace veiled people at all?

Melodie

You can trace them, but their locations do not ever show up. If the person you're tracing has a veil and you do not, you'll not be able to trace them. If you do have a veil, you can trace them physically, but no messages as to their location will show up.

Tahquil

@Jinsun : Sorry. All this tanks and fonts stuff got put in while I was dormant so I'm not up to speed on exactly how the mechanics go. I thought it was just citizen kills bumped the tanks up.

In regards to defending as a non-citizen I was killed in Targossas by Ashtani forces while going to refill vials. Since I was mistaken as part of the defence, I joined the defence. The next time it occurred I was trying to sway favour with Targossas to become a citizen. The time after that I was a citizen which I thought was enough.

That being said, it's compulsory for all Targossians to defend against raids whether they are soldiers or not. Unfortunately those are the rules of the city. Unfortunately you can't force every citizen to soldier up. If it is annoying that you have to cut through swathes of newb defenders who are probably spamming the one attack they've been ordered to do to get through to the meaty soldiers, I suggest revising your targetting priorities.

Antidas

@Strata:

2014/01/30 03:13:00 - The City of Ashtan has declared a sanctioned raid against the City.

2014/01/30 03:16:50 - The city's font has been empowered.

2014/01/30 03:54:01 - The City of Ashtan has withdrawn from the City, ending the sanctioned raid.

2014/01/30 05:00:57 - The City of Ashtan has declared a sanctioned raid against the City.

2014/01/30 05:33:52 - The City of Ashtan has withdrawn from the City, ending the sanctioned raid.

2014/01/30 06:03:50 - The City of Ashtan has declared a sanctioned raid against the City.

2014/01/30 06:09:26 - The forces of Ashtan have destroyed Terrace of the Faithful overlooking the 

cliffs of Solace.

This is our log for the raids. The first raid occurred before I logged in. From what I understand, you guys were at the harbor, and the font was empowered. The raid you are referring to, when Epiphany was our only veil and i was leading, started after that, and had a total of two sanctions. If you look at the timestamps, you'll see there was an hour between the raid when the font was empowered, and the raid that you have been discussing.

I appreciate you phrasing your post more respectfully, but I still disagree. I do agree that the font could use some reworking, and a hard cap on the stacks like Jinsun suggested sounds like a good idea. However, I don't see how removing the ability to hide tanks, and/or removing the ability for tanks to hold charges after the end of a sanctioned raid, would have any affect on ending, or a continuation of, the ability to play the waiting game, as you put it. The two things just aren't linked at all. I strongly suggest that you start a thread in the Dias about some potential font changes to make the playing field more even.

@Jinsun I honestly have not paid attention to which of our defenders are soldiers, and which aren't. I guarantee that it is not something I pay enough attention to to intentionally send someone who is not a soldier to scout. In a few of the cases you mentioned, I'll ask them about becoming a soldier. Some, however, are either young or just learning how to fight. I see no reason to force those people to become soldiers. 

Jhui

Font was empowered for our raid last night.  @Strata is correct.  No idea why the logs are wrong, but I had 20+ stacks as we were detonating.

Not sure why everyone is WTF and abuse bombing Strata.  He made some good points and addressed the OP.

Targ is certainly gaming the system, too, maybe not purposefully (because it has become the norm to turn font on/worldburn/not join army).  It's more of a lack of realizing what they're doing I think than purposely trying to game it, but it's pretty clear.

I don't really mind, but that kind of mindset isn't very fun for either side.

Tahquil

My posting is messing up .

Anyway to the topic of discussion in regards to tanks and sanctions ends I think it's unfair to the raiders if the tanks were to suddenly vanish once a sanction was called off purely to they amount of effort they would have had to put into raising the levels only to time out.

I am for a gradual decay in tank power outside sanctioned raids. Meaning that if raiders are powering up a tank and the sanction ends.. if they resanction right away they can continue on like nothing happened and there isn't a lose of pace for either defenders/raiders. But if they have to go away and regroup and come back they should be penalised a little.

 

As for the need to be in the proximity of the tank to charge them, I'm still on the fence. I can see both pros and cons of having it either way but I do have bias towards Targossas since they have a perceived large layout (but probably the same amount of room as Ashtan/Cyrene in reality). Maybe have to be in proximity of 12 rooms like megashrines? This should give the defenders a rough idea of places to look, but give the raiders the option of moving about

Jinsun

Guys to clarify some, I'm not trying to accuse individuals of gaming the system, but, as I told you I've brought it to each of your attention because it is an issue that does fix the in game mechanics. If someone for us is going to raid or defend, we typically advise them to be soldiers, 1. so that they can get experience gain, 2. so that they are participating within the system so that the other team has a shot at filling the tank.

As to all the points about not being able to find a person with a veil. I hate to say it, but that is what a veil is for. Saying I don't think it's fair to place a tank somewhere weird is not fair because I can't sense them if they have a veil on then asserting that tanks must be changed is a bit odd. You can't sense them because they paid 2000 credits for you not to sense them. A lot of people don't like veils for this reason because it takes 2000 credits to make the most basic skills like window work. Those adventurers paid a lot for that privacy that's causing you pause. If people snuck tanks in without veils, no one would give pause. So complain about the veils.