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  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    edited September 2012
    What infographic? 

    EDIT: I see it now :P

    EDIT 2: So over 400 GPM by 30 minutes is extremely rare, unless you get tons of kills. So about 300 GPM by 30 minutes is probably doing well enough. Ok, good to know. How much do kills give on average (ignore kill streak bonuses, etc)? How many minions are they worth?

    And yeah, I realize in LoL 0 CS supports are (maybe, still undecided :P) viable because of the way GPM items work (and how they scale into better items), but it's such a weird concept to me coming from a DoTA background where the only real equivalent item would be Hand of Midas which is a terrible item unless you're playing a pub game and plan to just farm as a carry for over 45 minutes which would probably lose you the game if the rest of your team doesn't get strong picks anyways -_-

    Anyhow, I generally play either hard carry or pure support in DoTA so I'm just looking at how to play them in LoL right now. 
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  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    lvl 1 and no masteries/runes is such a bitch. Health pots defeats my AD beginner damage. :(
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  • DakloreDaklore Member Posts: 804 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Xer as an ADC, 200 creeps by 20 minutes is about what you should be aiming for. A champion kill is generally worth about 10 minions(300 gold per champion kill, minions are about 30 or so?). Keep in mind, the gold earned from killing champions goes down as they go on a death streak. So if they've died ten times and never killed anyone, they'll barely be worth more than a couple minions. Still, should kill them to keep their team on a numbers dis-advantage.

    I'd say at the earlier levels of skill, 100 creeps by 20 minutes would be about what you should expect to get until you get the hang of last hitting, and even last hitting under pressure. 100-120 by 20 minutes is about my average, if I'm doing good, I'll usually pop up to 200+ by the 35 minute mark if we haven't won already.
    image
    When Canada rules the world,
    things will be... nii~ice.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Xer: Don't think of it as gold per minute, think about it as maximizing your CS, and getting kills where you can. The average kill is 300g, which puts it at about 15 CS. Waves are 6-7 minions depending on cannon creeps, so if minions are pushing towards your tower and you trade kills with the enemy lane, you are down a significant amount of gold and experience. "Perfect" lane CS is 100 at 10 minutes, and is ~230 or so (I think) at 20m. You can do jungle camps if you're communicating with your Jungler to go beyond maximum.

    CS is the biggest factor for every lane besides the support. If you don't know how to maximize your CS and control waves, learn that before you ever learn how to fight players. If you end up 20cs behind in a lane and a team fight happens, you're already 400g behind the enemy, which would swing the game 1 kills, which snowballs out of control. Learn to last hit and not push the lane. This is the most important thing you can ever learn in LoL. Juking, positioning, warding, are all pretty useless if you don't have the items from gold to back them up and use them effectively.

    Supports should only be attacking minions in ~3 situations. 1) The lane pushed under your tower very early game, hit any full health caster creep once, don't touch full health melee creeps (generally) 2) The ADC wen't back and the lane isn't pushed. Generally it's bad practice to do this (ADC most farm dependent lane), but if it happens you have to be good at last hitting. If you push up into a lane that knows what they're doing, they'll just free farm on you and you can't harass. 3) The enemy is being very aggressive, and a large wave is going to be under tower very soon, hit some of the creeps that are not being attacked by your minions, make sure your ADC knows you aren't going for last hits so they can better prioritize they're autos (many ADCs can't last hit 2 things going down at the same rate, some like Vayne can). Never cast into the creeps unless you just killed the enemy ADC and you want to push into tower.

    I really enjoy playing some ADCs, last night me/Katalyst/Gamdol/Mathonwy were playing and getting some of the worst random 5ths ever, so I rolled Vayne and got an early double (ty Katalyst Mao), middle game triple (+too late 4th kill), and game-ending quadra kill. Vayne is a beast.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    edited September 2012
    That's generally what I've been doing. Even while harassing enemy heroes, I never miss a chance on getting those last hits. Though the idea of never pushing out the lane is one I don't particular like. I mean, I understand how to static farm back in DoTA (because I can deny creeps... I dislike that I can't do that here D:), but pushing out the lane means I can do some jungle time, move lanes with tp's for better farm, and generally have stronger map presence which helps out the team, in addition to myself. But lacking these things, I can see why static farming is the current metagame.

    CS and controlling the waves doesn't seem too difficult, depending on the hero. Graves would have to be my favorite AD carry out of the free ones right now because I can harass and farm effectively with his Buckshot. I can also push out the lane quickly if I want to without losing CS by attacking all the creeps evenly, and then finishing them all off with Buckshot. Buckshot also lets me get those multiple last hits if I screwed up prioritizing which ones to hit. Then I can take out the Golems quickly, and make it look like I'm going for a gank mid or something, which forces the mid hero to back off, then come back to my lane before I miss any CS.

    I'm generally a more agressive player, I like picks that are able to dominate the lane in terms of harass and able to take the waves quickly so I can farm properly... and it works fine at lower levels but at higher tier play things seem a bit different. Need to play more to figure out why on an actual playing/personal level

    -- So basically CS is all important for carries, right?

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    Mishgul
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    i miss denying too

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Xer Right, CS is definitely the #1 factor for ADCs, they have the biggest transformative potential in terms of early game damage vs late game.

    You can play aggressive, but generally you need to be in-sync with your support and have a good combo going to do so effectively. A good example is Corki/Leona, who can go from 0 harass to 100% offensive in a second.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    @Jarrod How often does "perfect" lane CS occur? At higher level play, when you factor in being harassed/harassing, etc, what would be considered "good" CS stats by 10 minutes, and 20 minutes?
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  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    edited September 2012
    My last few games, I averaged around 70 ~ 75ish at 10 minutes, which could be better I think. It's lower level play though, so my supports are always terribad D:

    That's certainly more than enough for me to carry at that level, and I scale appropriate for mid and late game CS stats, but I'm curious as to how much better it has to be to be competitive. 
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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, 70-75ish CS is good for lower ELO play where people are trying to jump on you constantly. I see lanes generally last ~5 minutes of farming before they get itchy and try to jump us. The trick is to just back up and get your hits in effectively. Caitlynn is really good at hitting without being hit, Vayne can do OK if you catch them when they turn away from you. Once you've got a slight lead you can turn it into a kill usually. Summoner spells are also really important for some champs. I refuse to play Kog'maw or Vayne with Cleanse/Flash, they're just too vulnerable otherwise. Corki I run ignite/flash because he's super offensive, Caitlynn generally heal/flash since her early game is pretty poor compared to others (besides headshots).

    I think players like Doublelift get about 90+ CS at 10 minutes, if not better on average.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    i generally go for around 40 CS in five, after that I drop off sharply, but that's when I start going for ganks. Doing that is a bit of a gamble but if it pays off it pays off big. 100 in 10 is tough, hell even 80 in 10 starts getting tough because when the ganking starts and the abilities rack up, free farming becomes more and more difficult, unless you yourself have decent abilities for farming.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    that's in newb games btw. If you are a good player you can easily get over 100 CS in 10 minutes, but that comes with experience. In high elo games the CS scores can be insane.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Haven't played in a couple of months, so this was a pleasant surprise. 

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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    that's in newb games btw. If you are a good player you can easily get over 100 CS in 10 minutes, but that comes with experience. In high elo games the CS scores can be insane.

    Generally only mid lanes can get over 100 cs in 10 minutes. 100cs is 100% of the minions that come down lane in 10 minutes. You have to kill jungle creeps (ie. Wraiths for mid) to surpass this. During some professional games champs like Karth can get over 300cs by 20-25m which is ridiculous.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • ErasarielErasariel Member Posts: 757 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Syndra's up on the PBE! Looking forward to trying her out sometime.


    League of Legends: IA ROCKS (NA)
    Guild Wars 2: erasariel.1532 - Devona's Rest (NA)
    Final Fantasy XIV: Novi Selea - Cactuar (NA)
    Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ErasarielOfAchaea/
    Achaea: Erasariel (duh!)
  • GoggoGoggo Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    uhmm.. more nub doubts

    what are CS, AD, AP, ADC and all those things? 

  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    CS = creep score = minions you've killed. Minions are worth 20-30 gold each. A champion kill is 300 gold, so a champion = about 2 waves of minions. Gold = items = winning, so people place importance on being decent at farming minions. Last-hitting = getting the last hit on a minion to kill it, which you need to do to get the gold.

    AD = attack damage. This might refer to the AD stat, or the AD carry (a type of champion), or physical damage as opposed to magical damage, or any champion who primarily scales with AD. AD is the stat which boosts the damage of your basic attacks, as well as some AD-scaling abilities.

    AP = ability power. AP boosts the damage on most abilities (although some abilities scale with different stats, like AD, or not at all). eg. Annie's fireball, her Q, Disintegrate, gains .7 damage per AP, so 100 AP = +70 damage.

    ADC = AD carry, or ranged AD. This includes champions like Tristana, Graves, Miss Fortune, and Ezreal. They have ranged attacks, and usually have some sort of ability that maximises their basic attacks, multiplying the power they gain from items. eg. Tristana gains attack range each level, and has a huge attack speed boost on one of her abilities. They become extremely powerful later into the game, so if their team can protect them, they can take out the enemy team and "carry" the game.

    Generally, a mage can throw out a lot of damage, nuke one enemy to oblivion, and then their abilities are all on cooldown. An AD carry can kill someone with autoattacks, and they won't do it as quickly, but they won't run out of resources like a mage.

    You will normally see one person in top lane (a bruiser or assassin), one person in mid lane (a mage or assassin), one person in the jungle (a jungler), and two people in bot lane (a support, and a ranged AD). Although at lower levels people might be doing whatever they want, and you may not see junglers much. This is the metagame, the most common way of playing that's evolved.
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    Goggo
  • XerXer LangleyMember Posts: 804
    I dislike how I can't see how the skills scale with AD or AP in the Champion screen (or maybe I can and I'm just being dumb). I had no clue Caitlyn's AD scaling for her first skill was so high.
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  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I use leagueoflegends.wikia.com a whole lot for stuff like that.
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  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It should also be noted that when someone refers to 'just last-hitting' they mean letting your minions in lane do all the damage to the enemy minions, and you only attack to get the killing blow. This helps prevent the lane from pushing towards the enemy, which keeps you in a safer position in lane than if you were to push up and be more easily gankable from the river, for example.

    'Freezing' the lane is where you let enemy minions get to just outside tower range and then let them attack you instead of tower. You stay like this until your minion wave gets there and takes the aggro from them, at which point you just last hit. Because they'll have that wave + the wave that is coming for them, you'll generally be able to sit there farming by last-hitting for 3-4 waves where you'll be nigh-ungankable, and be very very safe. This is not good to do when the enemy team is looking to do dragon however, as it will mean you can't assist your own team without losing lots of farm as it pushes into tower.
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    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Alcinae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The new Champion is pretty fun to play, especially his passive.

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  • ErasarielErasariel Member Posts: 757 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Should totally try Rengar sometime. His kit looks pretty solid for jungling.

    Maybe after I try Syndra - not too interested, though, since I'm not really a mid player. The mechanics look very interesting though! Worth a try.


    League of Legends: IA ROCKS (NA)
    Guild Wars 2: erasariel.1532 - Devona's Rest (NA)
    Final Fantasy XIV: Novi Selea - Cactuar (NA)
    Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ErasarielOfAchaea/
    Achaea: Erasariel (duh!)
  • AldeberanAldeberan Member Posts: 64 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Regnar is pretty legit.

    image

    Kayle is also my girl... love her!

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    I prefer to not die as Kayle. Fast Kayle is fast. Her versatility is just awesome. She supports like a boss, has an awesome slow, can speed and heal people, her ulti can change a battle... and then if you get bored just grab some attack speed and AP items and rip things apart with your flaming sword of awesomeness.

    Anyways. Just a reiteration, 4EVERASWOWannabe is my summoner name. Maybe now you won't be afraid because I have no self esteem on LoL. I'm pretty awesome in real life, just not on LoL. At least not as often as I'd like.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2012

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Boots overpowered.

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    Aldeberan
  • ErasarielErasariel Member Posts: 757 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Man, you could've been reported for that kind of trolling, dude. :P

    Also, Irelia is already overpowered, dont even need dem boots and she can still faceroll.


    League of Legends: IA ROCKS (NA)
    Guild Wars 2: erasariel.1532 - Devona's Rest (NA)
    Final Fantasy XIV: Novi Selea - Cactuar (NA)
    Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/ErasarielOfAchaea/
    Achaea: Erasariel (duh!)
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Swear....never fails. All they do is whine about who's going mid, yada yada.

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    BlujixapugLianca
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rengar is a pretty fun champion to play. I've had a lot of fun since I bought him and started using him. This match ended quickly, for obvious reasons. 

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  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Every Rengar on my team always sucks, just sucks. Every Rengar on the enemy team is always ridiculously competent, running down from top lane to snatch kills on my unwary mid, mysteriously doing the same in bot lane, then vanishing into our jungle with his stupid stupid ultimate. I'm prepared to accept that the element of continuity could be me, but I don't see how. I do not like Rengar. He is jinxed.
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  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    His passive is pretty impressive, and makes him a pretty efficient jungler. But either jungle or lane, he's pretty good when used correctly.


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