Advancing in Tekura

Niraaeth

Seems to me that the only class that meets difficulties while learning their class skills are Monks and no matter how hard I tried figuring out the logic behind it, I couldn't find a reasonable reason for it. For those unaware, I'm speaking about the necessity to demonstrate 10+ times a Kata until you master it before you could ask someone to grade you and continue. If the whole learning process isn't boring enough, you have to spend an hour or even more just demonstrating. That, if you don't take into consideration the necessity to sleep quite often due to the huge endurance drain that mastering requires.

I quite understand that all these seem easier for those more experienced, given they can set up reflexes for every failed demonstration or to request a grading and so on, and they also have a way higher endurance pool, but if you consider this from a newbies point of view, it's just really a waste of time.Time, they take could spend learning about Achaea instead of repeating the same actions over and over again.

I would like this either to be changed so that it acts the same as the other classes, or at least explain to me why I have to keep telling the Monk novices that join my house that I understand their frustration, but from now on it can only get better.
One would think the developers of the game would bring in more entertainment for beginners instead of completely draining it.


Just to be clear, I'm trans Tekura, so it's not intended to help me, but the future novices that I don't wish to be discouraged by this particular detail.

Nemutaur

You do know the old trick of just grading a student over and over until they get it? Same as performing kata just saves some time.

Niraaeth

I tried that when I was being taught, got me a few not-so-nice looks from the teacher. :P
It kind of feels like cheating to do that, if you're trying to RP a disciplined, patient Monk.

Nemutaur

Niraaeth said:

I tried that when I was being taught, got me a few not-so-nice looks from the teacher. :P
It kind of feels like cheating to do that, if you're trying to RP a disciplined, patient Monk.

Yeah can't argue that it's horrible rp, but it's an option!

Eld

Yeah, the added flavour compared to the usual learning process is cool, but the added time, especially for novices, is pretty brutal. Even just lowering (or eliminating) the endurance cost of demonstrating would be a help. You could also make it quicker to master the early forms and take more demonstrations to master the later ones (which I think is the opposite of the current situation).

Eld

Nemutaur said:

You do know the old trick of just grading a student over and over until they get it? Same as performing kata just saves some time.

Yeah, we generally discourage that one. Though I personally would tend to look the other way, on account of the tedium of going through the whole thing. Still, it's pretty bad even doing it that way.

Trevize

Here's a suggestion. Set it up so performing a kata with someone present that is trans tekura helps more. Make it a new ability that sits at trans? Or perhaps adjust performing so if your mentor is present it's a lot faster?

Sena

With learning being so sped up now, I'd agree with making the demonstrating/grading way shorter (fewer repetitions needed to master?).

In the past it didn't bother me because I could demonstrate while learning so it didn't add as much time (and also because of the novelty and flavour), but I can see how it would be a lot more frustrating now that the lessons themselves are less slow and tedious.

Niraaeth

Trevize said:

Here's a suggestion. Set it up so performing a kata with someone present that is trans tekura helps more. Make it a new ability that sits at trans? Or perhaps adjust performing so if your mentor is present it's a lot faster?

Problem is that novices don't have a mentor upon leaving the flame (or pool?) and they are the ones that need to be lured more into the game.
I started this topic because I was teaching a Tyro (newbie in the Lotus) and I got to watch 2 episodes of random tv shows and 2 episodes of Family guy (that should be roughly two hours) and I -still- didn't finish with him before he poofed all of a sudden and I see low chances of him returning to all the fun he had the past hour or so.
I think the endurance cost could be removed completely and then make a successful Kata performance achievable upon let's say two demonstrations with faster emotes maybe?

Trevize

Niraaeth said:

Trevize said:

Here's a suggestion. Set it up so performing a kata with someone present that is trans tekura helps more. Make it a new ability that sits at trans? Or perhaps adjust performing so if your mentor is present it's a lot faster?

Problem is that novices don't have a mentor upon leaving the flame (or pool?) and they are the ones that need to be lured more into the game.
I started this topic because I was teaching a Tyro (newbie in the Lotus) and I got to watch 2 episodes of random tv shows and 2 episodes of Family guy (that should be roughly two hours) and I -still- didn't finish with him before he poofed all of a sudden and I see low chances of him returning to all the fun he had the past hour or so.
I think the endurance cost could be removed completely and then make a successful Kata performance achievable upon let's say two demonstrations with faster emotes maybe?

Mentor was one of two options - the first idea was just being in the room with someone trans tekura. Though the endurance cost being lowered I completely concur with.

Sarapis

I completely agree. This is a relic system. Will fix.

Niraaeth

Sarapis said:

I completely agree. This is a relic system. Will fix.

Thank you very much! I had low hopes of this being changed and I certainly wasn't expecting it to be approved so fast!

Sarapis

@Niraaeth I designed the grading system in the late 90s, and honestly, I'm kind of shocked to discover that horrible thing is still there. 

The fix is removing the need to demonstrate. You will simply go to a tutor for a grading, and the grading will succeed the first time, every time. Preserves the flavor, removes the pointless tedium.

Sarapis

Also, I'll mention that for me, removing the barriers to entry for newbies is my overall top priority in terms of what I think about in Achaea. Something like this is such a glaringly obvious candidate for reform that I'm really glad @Niraaeth brought it up.

Tarkanian

another reason for me to go monk again.

Iocun

I'd absolutely hate demonstrating to vanish

It's probably one of the few areas of tedium that I genuinely enjoyed in Achaea. When I was a newbie monk, I loved the feeling of actually working on tekura, failing, trying again, and slowly growing towards a new belt. The atmosphere it provided was awesome.

I don't understand how the time lost is such a huge issue to a complete newbie either. If you're still so new to everything, you're suffering from an information overload anyways, so anything that slows down the game and lets you slowly get acquainted with it is perfectly fine. I'd venture a guess and say that tekura learning is much more an issue for those who are long-term players of Achaea and just want to get their class as quickly as possible and do stuff with it. Keep in mind that completely new players are also still completely unfamiliar with all the abilities they learn and every newly learned thing there is a world in itself to explore.

Not everything needs to always be streamlined for ultimate convenience and instant gratification. Sometimes a deliberate slow-down can be enriching too, especially when it concerns something like learning that is all about the very meaningful act of mastering your class - a one-time experience for many players. It's not as if constant class-hopping is the expected standard making it a necessity for people to go through that tedium over and over again (like it is the case for gaining levels, gold, etc.).

I also disagree that instant demonstration success preserves the flavour. The time it takes is an integral part of the flavour to me.

Greys

I also enjoyed it.  It was a rite of passage for monks.  Sure it was rough but we all did it.  I can share stories of how it took me 20 times to get through Jakata even once.  I never had any novice seriously complain about Tekura and they seemed proud when they did get through it.  You would announce when people go their belt as it took some time and work which make tekura special instead of "oh meh, you spent x lessons".

Penwize

The main issue really is that people want to be able to jump into sections of the game as soon as THEY feel ready, so if they want to dump lessons into Tekura and try to smash it out, in the current system they can't.  Even newcomers who happen to be savvy with MUD mechanics will have this issue.  Removing their tedium as a requirement is a step in the right direction.

Now, I wouldn't like to see the forms just go away though, so if anything I'd like to see something useful come of them.  It's a real shame that they're never used after you trans, and they're such a flavourful monk thing.  Would be interesting if you could get a buff to certain aspects of Tekura by demonstrating one of the forms.  That way we don't lose them, they become more common for monks (flavour enhancement!), and become actually useful too!

Melodie

I really do think these should remain in -some- form. Even though I've never played the monk class itself, Melodie grew up and spent most of her life with the Mojushai. Because of that, she's actually practiced these forms (some of them, she totally sucks) on and off over the years.

Not having them be the entire pain they are now would be nice, but it really would be a shame to see them disappear entirely.

Strata

Iocun said:

I'd absolutely hate demonstrating to vanish

It's probably one of the few areas of tedium that I genuinely enjoyed in Achaea. When I was a newbie monk, I loved the feeling of actually working on tekura, failing, trying again, and slowly growing towards a new belt. The atmosphere it provided was awesome.

I don't understand how the time lost is such a huge issue to a complete newbie either. If you're still so new to everything, you're suffering from an information overload anyways, so anything that slows down the game and lets you slowly get acquainted with it is perfectly fine. I'd venture a guess and say that tekura learning is much more an issue for those who are long-term players of Achaea and just want to get their class as quickly as possible and do stuff with it. Keep in mind that completely new players are also still completely unfamiliar with all the abilities they learn and every newly learned thing there is a world in itself to explore.

Not everything needs to always be streamlined for ultimate convenience and instant gratification. Sometimes a deliberate slow-down can be enriching too, especially when it concerns something like learning that is all about the very meaningful act of mastering your class - a one-time experience for many players. It's not as if constant class-hopping is the expected standard making it a necessity for people to go through that tedium over and over again (like it is the case for gaining levels, gold, etc.).

I also disagree that instant demonstration success preserves the flavour. The time it takes is an integral part of the flavour to me.

Key words here: "true newbie"

Eld

Iocun said:

I'd absolutely hate demonstrating to vanish

It's probably one of the few areas of tedium that I genuinely enjoyed in Achaea. When I was a newbie monk, I loved the feeling of actually working on tekura, failing, trying again, and slowly growing towards a new belt. The atmosphere it provided was awesome.

I don't understand how the time lost is such a huge issue to a complete newbie either. If you're still so new to everything, you're suffering from an information overload anyways, so anything that slows down the game and lets you slowly get acquainted with it is perfectly fine. I'd venture a guess and say that tekura learning is much more an issue for those who are long-term players of Achaea and just want to get their class as quickly as possible and do stuff with it. Keep in mind that completely new players are also still completely unfamiliar with all the abilities they learn and every newly learned thing there is a world in itself to explore.

Not everything needs to always be streamlined for ultimate convenience and instant gratification. Sometimes a deliberate slow-down can be enriching too, especially when it concerns something like learning that is all about the very meaningful act of mastering your class - a one-time experience for many players. It's not as if constant class-hopping is the expected standard making it a necessity for people to go through that tedium over and over again (like it is the case for gaining levels, gold, etc.).

I also disagree that instant demonstration success preserves the flavour. The time it takes is an integral part of the flavour to me.

I agree that automatic success on requesting a grading loses some of the flavour, but it's really not just a matter of instant gratification. The problem is that when you have a newbie join, you want to introduce them to the house and city, teach them some basic stuff, get them some skills, and get them on their feet and actually doing something out in the world in a reasonable time frame. With the current system, learning your initial lessons in Tekura can take a couple hours of demonstrating and sleeping to recover endurance, which is way too long. Part of the problem is that it's at every rank, so that the first few are very close together; you don't even get to learn full sets of 15 lessons until after your second grading, by which time you've probably run out of endurance. I wouldn't mind seeing the mechanic stay in some form, but I think it should at least be modified so that it doesn't take more than, say, half an hour to learn the first 100 lessons, and so that you don't have to sleep for endurance within that training session.

Niraaeth

@Eld pretty much summed it up for me.

Niraaeth

@Sarapis While we're at the topic of novices and Tekura, is there a chance of reworking endurance drain on Tekura?
I agree that lower levels should have a disadvantage, but me and several other novices used to joke around that we spend most of our time in realms sleeping. Implementing dreams was a great idea, offered me some entertainment during, but frankly they become repetitive rather fast.When I noticed I have read all dreams, I simply went afk for half an hour (average time it took me to recover endurance) after hunting for only like 7-10 minutes.

I can't think of a way this could bring unbalance, but if I'm mistaken, please don't shoot me!


P.S.: Second option - more dreams, please!

Trevize

Niraaeth said:

@Sarapis While we're at the topic of novices and Tekura, is there a chance of reworking endurance drain on Tekura?
I agree that lower levels should have a disadvantage, but me and several other novices used to joke around that we spend most of our time in realms sleeping. Implementing dreams was a great idea, offered me some entertainment during, but frankly they become repetitive rather fast.When I noticed I have read all dreams, I simply went afk for half an hour (average time it took me to recover endurance) after hunting for only like 7-10 minutes.

I can't think of a way this could bring unbalance, but if I'm mistaken, please don't shoot me!


P.S.: Second option - more dreams, please!

I want to disagree - I'd like to see it lowered some, but not a lot - shamans and monks should have some drawbacks for being the fastest hunters.

Cathy

Just have endurance/willpower be something that only kicks in after level 21 - thereby not restricting true new people to sleeping so much. 

If people want to lolbash, 1-21 is nothing, whereas for a real newbie, those levels might actually take time, and therefore the not using end/will thing would be a help to them.

Trevize

Cathy said:

Just have endurance/willpower be something that only kicks in after level 21 - thereby not restricting true new people to sleeping so much. 

If people want to lolbash, 1-21 is nothing, whereas for a real newbie, those levels might actually take time, and therefore the not using end/will thing would be a help to them.

I really like this idea.

Jonners

Make this true for all classes and I'm right there with you. This also gives newbies a chance to build up more than a couple hundred will/endurance before they would need to learn about it/ use it.

Cathy

Jonners said:

Make this true for all classes and I'm right there with you. This also gives newbies a chance to build up more than a couple hundred will/endurance before they would need to learn about it/ use it.

I meant it as a blanket removal until level 21 - so yep, for all classes.

Penwize

Blanket removal for everyone would be better. Dislike endurance/willpower as mechanics.  But alas!

Jonners

But then my level 4 endurance regen would be worthless.

Do you actually run out?

edit- not including you breaking your character, again.

Shibumi

I remember, I enjoyed it as well. I started to play Achaea 3 years ago, and I loved it even for these things. The first kata was a bit of a pain, but I proceeded through the others smoothly. Now, when newbies ask me a grading, I always say something while they perform the katas, to encourage, to reprehend...I do actual roleplay as a teacher, and it is very fun even if I have to sit and watch, (being a decent martial artist on my own in RL, I like these sessions). I am with @Iocun full way on this. 

I understand the problem of instant gratification in order to remove the barrier for potential new entries, but it is better to rely on the awesomess of the game itself than throwing away anything of its flavor.

Roleplay, roleplay, mechanics are just a tool to roleplay. Just my opinion, of course.

Ok! You can shoot me, since I seems a good target for arrows recently.