General tutors - for the Houseless and Cityless

Cron

For fun I decided to login with this character again after a couple of years of dormancy to see how much things have changed within Achaea.

 

Whilst there's a lot to catch up since, I thought it would be entertaining to meander around (oh Achaea, how I have missed you even though you've sucked up years of my life ).

 

Now due to various circumstances, my character is houseless and cityless. I didn't think that would be much of an issue until I tried to train up my class skills a little further. My three class skills are past virtuoso but not yet transcendent. Thinking it wouldn't be a problem, I hit Onorol and tried to learn. No dice, can't teach me any further. Tried Tyrandiel, again no luck. I could've sworn that I learned my class skills to this level from either one of them before going dormant.

 

Reading HELP TUTORS, I note that these two general tutors can only teach up to virtuoso. Fine, I thought maybe it's just these two who are restricted. In the past I remember Caladriendra could teach to trans. Nope, no dice either. Slightly desperate at this stage, I hit the Achaean wiki and visited most of the general tutors who look promising (from Jehr'mias to Sharbrena - hey it's pretty horrible when you can barely remember your way around). No luck either. So right, looks like HELP TUTORS is accurate (you know how Achaean help files can be some times they don't tell the whole picture).

 

Feeling a little lost, I decide to issue myself and ask if there are perhaps hidden general tutors who can teach up to trans. The answer, is no. You have to either learn from a house tutor or from another adventurer.

 

I just want to make sure this is accurate (issue answers sometimes aren't ) and if anyone can clarify if there is a general tutor out there that I haven't uncovered who can teach to trans.

 

If there isn't, it's just pretty depressing overall. If I wanted to play a loner who doesn't really interact with anyone, I'm pretty much stuck with not being able to advance my class skills. I must've missed the memo as to why they made these changes, as I would've thought post-autoclass you can do whatever you want, however you want without being really tied down (and yeah, class skills are an important thingy) to a house or having to beg someone to teach you.

 

To put it mildly, if I was as loved as Cain+Dalamar+Glint+Talkaze+Santar (hey I'm just throwing out a bunch of names here, don't shoot me ) and I decided to quit class, and remain houseless and cityless I'd probably be screwed thoroughly with no hope of ever learning my skills (unless I buy a bunch of credits and offer to pay someone to teach me ).

 

Just my two cents worth as well on this whole issue. A bit disappointing, and I'm tempted to just float back into dormancy if all this stands as true right now.

Anaidiana

nope. go interact with somebody. I often see Market requests for 'trans trainers in <<skill>>'.

Wysteria

Calandriendra (spelliinng) can't teach to Trans anymore? I swear I transed Seafaring from her only last month.

Cron

Wysteria said:

Calandriendra (spelliinng) can't teach to Trans anymore? I swear I transed Seafaring from her only last month.

General tutors can teach all non-class skills to trans. It's the class skills that have the restriction of up to virtuoso.

Iocun

If you RP a loner who doesn't interact with anyone, you also shouldn't learn from denizen tutors, because that's just as much interaction with people as learning from adventurers, so I can't quite agree with the RP argument.

The only reason why you wouldn't want learn from players could then be a reluctance to do so by you, the player. But if you don't wish to interact with players, why play a multiplayer game?

Yes, if you truly manage to make yourself hated by everyone, you may have a hard time. There's an easy way to prevent universal hatred though: don't be a total jerk.

Cron

Iocun said:

If you RP a loner who doesn't interact with anyone, you also shouldn't learn from denizen tutors, because that's just as much interaction with people as learning from adventurers, so I can't quite agree with the RP argument. The only reason why you wouldn't want learn from players could then be a reluctance to do so by you, the player. But if you don't wish to interact with players, why play a multiplayer game?

Oh boy, I had a feeling that someone would bring this up. No loners allowed in multiplayer games. Call it a personal peccadillo if you will.

 

As to not learning from adventurers, again this sounds like you're punishing anyone who wants to be houseless and cityless. Again if we're not going to use the RP point-of-view argument, how about for those who are utterly hated and disliked in the game? What happens when they switch classes? Or are they condemned to remaining in the same class for the rest of their game lives or until they make restitution?

 

Or that end of the day, money talks, if you're in that position you have to bribe/pay your way to get a teacher.

Katzchen

What... you just completely ignored Iocun's point. In achaea, denizens are people too. If you don't want to interact with people, you shouldn't interact with denizens. If you want to briefly interact with denizens to get what you need, you can do that with players too. Advertise over market. Even if you can't pay, someone will probably take pity and teach you sooner or later. Learning is much faster these days, and free lessons are somewhat worth it with the new speed.

Cron

Katzchen said:

What... you just completely ignored Iocun's point. In achaea, denizens are people too. If you don't want to interact with people, you shouldn't interact with denizens. If you want to briefly interact with denizens to get what you need, you can do that with players too. Advertise over market. Even if you can't pay, someone will probably take pity and teach you sooner or later.

Okay let's try this from another angle.

I want to play a loner. That's not so much an RP that I am going to adhere to the point of by god I shall be the hermit on the mountain who talks to no one.

I'm a loner in the sense I'm happy with _minimal_ interaction.

Iocun's point is that because I want to be a loner, I shouldn't even learn from denizens. (RP) So not sure how I completely ignored his point there.

Realistically I cannot not interact with anyone. I still have to buy food. I will probably end up doing some quests, killing mobs.

An inclination to be a loner doesn't mean I have to be a complete hermit.

All I'm asking is if there's a simple alternative to learning class skills (from a denizen). Call it convenience if you will. Evidently not. Thanks for all the answers though.

P.S. Iocun, your last paragraph that you added in after you edited your reply made me cringe a little. Some people RP playing a jerk. So they should be punished even though it brings flavour to the game?

Katzchen

The mechanic is there to be one of the downsides of being a rogue. Achaea's axis of conflict revolves around the factions, and too many rogues, or appeal to become rogue and abandon the factions would weight against that. It's not impossible to learn without joining a city, we have told you what the options are, and I do not support a mechanical change which could have those effects just for the convenience of a few, especially someone who doesn't want to interact with anyone. If you're not interacting, and you don't contribute to any org, chances are you're really not contributing anything to achaea, unless you get into mortal building or something. I don't see why mechanics should be changed to help someone who isn't actually contributing anything to the game.

If you want to RP a hermit, go ahead. Just don't complain when you come up against hurdles, and expect things to be changed. What you're doing isn't what achaea is about, it's about roleplay, interactions, and conflict. Don't expect achaea to change to be what you want.

Cron

Katzchen said:

The mechanic is there to be one of the downsides of being a rogue. Achaea's axis of conflict revolves around the factions, and too many rogues, or appeal to become rogue and abandon the factions would weight against that. It's not impossible to learn without joining a city, we have told you what the options are, and I do not support a mechanical change which could have those effects just for the convenience of a few, especially someone who doesn't want to interact with anyone. If you're not interacting, and you don't contribute to any org, chances are you're really not contributing anything to achaea, unless you get into mortal building or something. I don't see why mechanics should be changed to help someone who isn't actually contributing anything to the game.

If you want to RP a hermit, go ahead. Just don't complain when you come up against hurdles, and expect things to be changed. What you're doing isn't what achaea is about, it's about roleplay, interactions, and conflict. Don't expect achaea to change to be what you want.

Oh wow, I seem to have struck a nerve.

My original posting was because I remember when the mechanic allowed the possibility of learning class skills up to trans from general tutors. This was post-autoclass. I sought clarification on if that was still a possibility.

We can agree to disagree on how the mechanics should be.

I always find it amusing when someone tends to push their views as being how Achaea should be or how if you don't fall into their definition, you're not "contributing" to the game. (Re: old forum postings -> Ottis, non-entity)

Whether you're going to be a basher who spends all his life bashing to get dragon (leaving less mobs to those poor other more "deserving" players), a PKer who wants to give Jhui/Geraint (whoever's fighting these days) a run for his money, a politican like Alban and making Shallam more good than good can be, being a thief like Glint/Tenebrus making you wish you had selfishness, or a simple concoctionist who is solely harvesting and brewing the entire time, that's a player's contribution to Achaea.

Just by doing anything in the game, you're drawing on resources that can be used by other players be it mobs, herbs, commodities, gold, credits or time.

Whilst I find the changes to be depressing, I am not going to complain about how things are nor do I expect Achaea to change to my expectations (yeah believe it or not, I'm not the ME, ME, ME! type of person).

In my time playing Achaea, I've met players who are extremely quiet, who do not get involved with org/conflict issues but who have been gems in their own way. Interactions are far and few in between but when it occurs it's extremely entertaining. They don't have to follow your definition of "roleplay".

Your stance right now is, "How dare you ask for a change in mechanics!?!" when I haven't asked so.

 

Arditi

Just break into the Ashura house estate. Naxanon is pretty unguarded and is technically a House tutor.

Cron

Arditi said:

Just break into the Ashura house estate. Naxanon is pretty unguarded and is technically a House tutor.

Ha, that's an idea. :P Can a House tutor teach a non housed-member though? I vaguely recall it being possible before (might be wrong though, been a while).

Jhui

have to agree with Cron here.  Rogue tutors are needed.  It may very well encourage a few more rogues, but hopefully more houses can step up like the occultist house and throttle people wanting to be rogue.  (PK them, or whatever)

A few people posted that Cron learning from an NPC makes him not hold true to his RP as a loner.  That's a fine justification, but then you must also justify why the NPC has the limitation to only teach up to virtuoso if the NPC is indeed on the same playing field as a player.

Anedhel

I challenge the idea that rogues can't contribute to the game. 99% of people in factions don't contribute shit, to begin with, so being part of a faction isn't necessarily equivalent to 'contributing'. I also challenge the notion that there's no place for mercenaries in Achaea, which seems to be a pretty prevalent belief on the forums. Why shouldn't people's allegiances be bought and paid for, in some cases? Or perhaps the rogue has a good reason for not being aligned to a faction, even though (s)he might espouse certain ideals that might resemble those of a faction- how is that not valid, or interesting? 'Good RP' comes down to how well a person plays their character, how consistent they are, what they regularly bring to the table- none of which has anything to do with who/what your character is. Let's not pretend factions are full of useful, dedicated people who make an effort to make the game interesting for everyone on a consistent basis, because they are not.

(Sorry for addressing a side-point in your thread.)

Iocun

Cron said:

P.S. Iocun, your last paragraph that you added in after you edited your reply made me cringe a little. Some people RP playing a jerk. So they should be punished even though it brings flavour to the game?

It's a matter of perspective whether you call that 'punishment' or simply "their RP having an effect on their game experience". If I want to RP a murderer, I will be 'punished' by getting hunted down. If I RP an Ashtani, I'm 'punished' by not getting any priest blessings. If I RP a pacifist, I'll have a hard time leveling up. If I RP a jerk, I will have troubles finding people (including denizens) willing to teach me.

The RP we choose affects the game, our playing experience and yes, it can result in "inconvenient" situations. For me, that helps to make the game remain realistic and enjoyable, since it forces us to make careful decisions on where to take our characters, rather than just doing random stuff because we feel like it.

Anyone who RPs a jerk and doesn't expect it to make his gameplay more difficult in some ways is woefully naive.

Regardless of all this though, I do not consider it a very realistic concern. I can't think of a single player who is hated by anyone, without any friends or at least people who are neutral to them. The people who may have most problems with finding teachers are typically those who are simply a bit shy IRL, not ones that are hated.

Haldon

@Cron, access to people willing to teach is sporadic on market. Don't overlook the blademaster class, the tutor for that teaches to trans and is accessible to all. Not sure how this dire threat to RP has been overlooked but there ya go.

Cron

Iocun:

I do agree with most of your stated points, they're valid. If you're a jerk, don't expect to get refills, have a hard time shopping or receiving blessings, runes, tattoos.

But at the core of the game are skills. Realistically for most players (barring the full time politicians, heh) you need the skills. Skills can't be compared to any of the above, I feel.

Granted there aren't that many people who fall into the category of being totally hated by everyone (trying to recall a few names offhand, Moiraine?). So yes this is very much the exception rather than the norm.

I just find it personally depressing that one in such a situation has to start asking/begging over market for a teacher rather than hitting up a denizen.

Although if this is were to ever happen, I'm sure there'll be players out there who would choke up and have a good laugh.

 

(Market): Dalamar says, "Paying for someone to teach me concoctions."

Iocun

Well, personally I feel that going total rogue (house- and cityless) should mainly be something for more experienced players, who can be expected to know the difficulties that come with it and be ready to find ways to cope with them. It's a form of playing the game in a slightly higher difficulty level.

For people who are still somewhat new to the game, I would always recommend that they join a house and city, as it will help so tremendously with learning important things about the game and learning to know people. It also makes it easier for shy players to get used to player interaction, as it tends to be much easier to get comfortable around a small community of people who are "on your side" than trying to overcome shyness as a rogue, as that requires far more initiative of your own. And if you join a house, learning skills usually becomes very easy.

Yes, that means that some lines of roleplay won't be easily available to new players, but that's the case anyways. You can't really RP a master combatant without having learned Achaea's combat mechanics, nor can you really RP a scholar without having learned a ton about the game world as a player. This merely means that roleplaying a total loner is another thing that's more suited for experienced players.

There's a reason why Achaea makes learning as a rogue somewhat tough: to encourage people to join communities. There's nothing inherently wrong with not joining a community, and you can still be a valuable player as a rogue, but all in all, the game tends to work out better and gets more exciting when reasonably many people are part of factions/cities/orders/houses. These institutions are the main carriers of grand-scale happenings and conflicts. They also are invaluable for newbie education and for giving the game world more structure and consistency, by providing sets of unified ideals and laws which are less fickle than the steadily-varying ideals of many rogues. If people stopped joining houses and cities, they would slowly die out and no longer be able to fulfill their function to teach important things to new players. There's no way IRE could afford to pay staff to take over all the volunteer work that is currently done in these organisations, to help other players. That's why they are so valuable, and that's why it's a good thing if there remain some incentives to join them.

Cron

Haldon said:

@Cron, access to people willing to teach is sporadic on market. Don't overlook the blademaster class, the tutor for that teaches to trans and is accessible to all. Not sure how this dire threat to RP has been overlooked but there ya go.

Interesting, I'll have to look this up. Didn't even know there's a blademaster class. Thanks for the tip!

Nemutaur

@Arditi and @Cron, no he can't teach rogues, only Ashurans. Not sure if he could teach you survival and stuff though, just definately not subterfuge and class skills.

Mishgul

Hashan is the city of rogues right?

Mizik

Good luck, dude.

Virt skills are the first true accolade of the Loner archetype.

Don't listen to them, you're doing great.

Katzchen

@Cron a nerve struck? Ha, not a chance.

@Anedhel rogues can contribute fine, but at least three of the cities are often low on players, and more rogue to citizen ratio isn't a good thing for the main conflict in achaea. A few rogues is fine, but not most of the game. I never said rogues can't contribute, just if this guy plans on never talking to anyone (which is implied if he won't even find a player to ask for lessons and other things he's said) I doubt he's going to be.

Kresslack

Cron said:

I'm a loner in the sense I'm happy with _minimal_ interaction.

Iocun's point is that because I want to be a loner, I shouldn't even learn from denizens. (RP) So not sure how I completely ignored his point there.

You seem to be intentionally overlooking a point many have already made, simply because it doesn't seem to be the answer you want to hear. You want minimal interaction, and that's fine. You get minimal interaction on a denizen level by being able to learn only up to a certain level. If you were able to sit and use 1600 lessons in one go at the same denizen, that wouldn't really be 'minimal interaction' now would it?

Thus, you have the option to at least check CLASSWHO and see if someone would be willing to teach you. Additionally, you could advertise the need for a tutor on Market, and someone will usually help you out. Once you've gotten your minimal interaction with the denizens out of the way as much as you can learn, you can then trade that in for some minimal interaction with someone of the same class. 

After that, you can go back to doing whatever it is you want to do, but the simple fact is, some things you get in this came can only come from interacting with other players to a certain degree. There's a reason for that: It prompts environmental and player growth.

Kyrra

I've an alt that is truly rogue. I learned as far as I could with class skills from Tyrandiel and then I just approached random people to ask if they could teach me the rest.

That character is as much of a loner as you can get, she's lives in jungles not even on the mainland but it wasn't a huge deal to have that interaction. You have to -learn- skills from someone after all. I'd rather knock it out with someone that can teach to trans and they sped up learning now too.

Anedhel

Fair enough! I wasn't specifically addressing your comment, for the record, but more that general attitude. I have no idea what Cron's like, what he wants to do, etc. etc. The if-you-don't-contribute-it-doesn't-matter-what-you-are line of thought certainly rings true for rogues, as well.

Rinzai

If I had to implement a solution to this, I would do it much like language tutors, it would make sense to me that some denizens would teach at a high cost, thus creating a gold sink, rogues will have enough problems, and I know that houses, cities are encouraged but that is not to say someone could not be a successful rogue that contributes to the realms.

I guess to me from a completely sane perspective, house teachers would want to teach those in their house, makes the house stronger, the same with cities, they have incentive. My thought would be if I had enough money, and could hunt down Darmong, why wouldn't he teach me some tekura, kaido, telepathy.

Kyrra

He's too busy selling cookies in pink smoke.

Cron

@Haldon

Looks like the blademaster tutor only teaches said class's skill up trans. Ah well. It was a good tip though.

This is just an FYI posting.

I'm not going to argue further about my stance on this. Everyone has their own points and is entitled to their own opinions. Some that I agree with and others I do not.

Thanks for all those who gave good suggestions though, much appreciated.

Jovolo

Arguing that only being able to learn up to virtuoso is a draw back of being a loner is ridiculous.

Anaidiana

Haldon said:

@Cron, access to people willing to teach is sporadic on market. Don't overlook the blademaster class, the tutor for that teaches to trans and is accessible to all. Not sure how this dire threat to RP has been overlooked but there ya go.