Class advice - Serpent or Occultist

Brethil

First of all, a bit of background - I've played Achaea for a few weeks about ten years ago. From what I remember, I used to play as a druid and I got to level 35-40, I can't really remember. About three weeks ago I've made a come back, but I'm having a hard time deciding on a class.

Here are some things that I'm looking for:

- since I'm still pretty much a newbie, I'm looking for a class that will help me explore the game - decent travelling skills and good escape skills; a glass canon class may not be very wise from this point of view

- casual play - I may not be able to log in every day, nor will I be able to play for long sessions (e.g. more than 2-3 hours)

- I prefer to be houseless - I know it's a bit hard to learn the game in this way, but I don't mind this

- I don't plan to buy credits

- I prefer versatile classes, with plenty of utility skills to keep me occupied - I tend to get bored easily and I'm always looking for something new

- I don't mind complexity - actually, it would probably be a bonus since there's more to learn

- Versatility usually comes at a price - I don't mind if the class I'm playing is not the best in specific field

- PVP is not really a focus for now; I may become interested in it as I learn the game, but it will probably be in a group context

- from a PVP point of view, good defence or escape skills are a bonus

- I would like to avoid classes which limit the social interactions - from a role playing point of view, I would like to play a neutral character

I've tried a few alts - priest, druid, serpent, alchemist, monk and occultist. Out of these, serpent and occultist are my top candidates, but I'm having a hard time deciding on one of them.

Which one would fit my criteria better? Occutlist seems more complex, but I'm a bit worried about karma and being houseless. Is this really an issue? Serpent has some nice utility skills, but I'm having a hard time role playing this class - I just can't imagine biting people and garrote seems a bit too violent for my taste.

Thanks!

Sylvance

Serpent

Mannimar

Both classes really meet your criteria well, but I find Occultist to be much more tankier than Serpent. Especially with the changes to Serpent stats. You'll have travel, healing, free mounts, flying, and few damage reducers, although Occultist will struggle a bit in socialising, There are only two cities and houses that accept them. The Occultist house is likely to quickly enemy and kill you for being rogue, Targossas will enemy you without question, and Cyrene will put strict limits on what you can do with in the city.

Serpents like I said are not so tanky at all... However, they have superior travel, a "craft" skill, and everyone takes them. You will have some trouble when dealing with elitist Houses, but no instant enemy status, and free reign in most cities. You also get Phase, gotta love Phase.

Both classes are strong in combat, both use afflictions to get their win. I would say Serpent is the more difficult class to PvP as, and I -think- their hunting is not as good as Occultist. Faster, but lower damage per hit.

Arditi

Serpent is only not tanky if you're trying to optimize for combat. Garrote is only dependent on Subterfuge and whip stats.

Occultist has superior running away skills, in that they have at least one escape mechanism in every skillset.

However, not buying credits will gimp your Occultist skills, while a Serpent can forgo Venom and Hypnosis entirely and still be useful.

On the RP side of the house, neutrality is boring. Pick a side and go with it. You'll have more fun that way.

Iocun

I wouldn't recommend speccing dex to any serpent who is new to the class anyways. Having a lightning fast dstab is pointless if you don't know how to make optimal use of it. A con-specced serpent has good defences, both against damage (scales, evade) and afflictions (shrugging, evade), and is most definitely not a glass cannon, whereas occultists often need to actively hinder for their defence (hangedman is quite good for that though). Escape-wise, both classes have good options, and depending on the exact circumstance one or the other may be better. Both also have good utility and a nice variety of interesting abilities.

Occultists, as has been mentioned, aren't as easy to play "neutrally". They also have much higher upkeep costs than serpents. Both can be complex if you want to, or simple, if you stick to simple things.

Arditi

Arrows get expensive too.

Also, if you do end up giving in and buying credits, Occultists don't get a Lupine's for only 1000 credits.

Dunn

Tarot gets expensive and is largely useless unless you sink the credits into it (supercharge is trans still somehow). Occultist is -heavily- resource dependent (cards, pacts, karma) and if you burst, you're down an entire skillset (domination). With the revamp of domination, not having ents really limits you 1v1 and is less detrimental in groups, but still irritating.

Arditi

At the same time, between astralform, universe, hermit, pathfinder, allies with empress, and earrings, Occultists all get Transcendent "DIE ALREADY UGH HATE YOU" for free.

Dunn

Too bad earrings aren't a part of a class skillset.

Tesha

oops off topic. Pick serpent!

Blujixapug

If you enjoy the idea of playing a sneaky backstabbing assassin, or a mysterious Lovecraftian scholar of forbidden truths, then let that preference make the choice for you. It will be a big factor in whether or not you enjoy your character and the House they join. If you don't enjoy and click with your character, it'll probably be less than a week before you're making a new one to try out another class that catches your fancy.

Otherwise...

Serpent is a very fun class. They have a lot of really fun abilities at all ranks of Subterfuge, like illusions, evade, dashing, wormholes, and phase.

Occultist is a resource-intensive class, requiring you buy and prepare Tarot cards, in addition to the other supplies every class requires like armour and curatives. All the upkeep can be quite expensive.

Both classes are very versatile with plenty of utility. If you get into PVP, both are very complex to play. Both have several ways to escape sticky situations.

Occultists are not a neutral class. They're deeply connected to Chaos, which (nutshell summary) is the primordial force outside of reality which threatens to engulf the universe. Ashtan is the city associated with Chaos. Targossas mega-hates Chaos. Cyrene doesn't particularly like Chaos but has trouble taking a stand about anything. Mhaldor, Hashan, and Eleusis also have varying opinions of their own. As an occultist you'll only be able to join Ashtan or Hashan, or else be a cityless rogue. Playing an occultist will not necessarily limit your social interaction, but it will certainly strongly influence it in interesting ways.

Serpents are a neutral class, but may have somewhat of a reputation for being devious untrustworthy sorts. There are serpents in every city.

Trevize

Both classes have upkeep, but occultist is worse.

Both have tons of utility, and are good at escaping.

Serpent would be my personal favorite for 'wandering rogue', but occultist could play the 'outcast' solidly.

Not sure if you've considered it, but blademaster works well for rogue too. Very little upkeep, can bash and fight (a little) with only one trans skill, and you can learn to trans from a denizen. Not as much utility as occie/serp though.

Brethil

Thank you all for the very helpful comments and comparisions. At the moment, I would tend to favor Serpent more. Perhaps I should try to build a background story, which doesn't directly imply the "sneaky backstabbing assassin". 

Are there any other classes that might fit the profile that I'm looking for? Utility and versatility are the primary characteristics, followed by some sort of neutrality. I know that neutrality is boring in the long run, but at the moment I prefer to learn things a bit, before taking a side. 

I've also considered:

- Priests - they seemed nice, but I find the alignment a bit of a burden

- Druids - they used to be my favorite ten years ago, but since they are accepted only in Eleusis, I find them quite limited. Eleusis seems like a nice place, but it doesn't seem to be very friendly with houseless characters

- Alchemist - for some reasons I found them quite boring, but I'm not sure exactly why (I've only played until level 20). How are they on the long run?

- Monk - I like the concept of being self sufficient, but they seem to be focused too much on combat / bashing.

Runewarden also got my attention, but I'm not too sure about their utility. And after searching the forums for a bit, they also seem to be quite expensive. Are there any other suggestions?

Mannimar

I think the most non combat utility will be found in the skills: Metamorphosis, Groves, Tarot, and Healing. Concoctions and Transmutation do provide some nice incentives, allowing you to be almost entirely self sufficient too. You can always get past an unfriendly front in a city... It's all about how you present yourself.

Trevize

Runewarden doesn't have a ton of utility, but Raido is nice. Falcons are also fun as hell, being able to send them to people, send items to people, and so on. They're also built to fight/hunt/move around on mounts, so you essentially get dash once you train up in riding, and the RP value is nice.

Once you can make fullplate, you don't need further armor. If you don't want the best of the best, you can forge decent swords relatively cheap. You can now mill inks, so that is a time sink or a gold sink, as you choose.

If you want a rogue forestal, I'd recommend sentinel over druid, personally. Suits the wandering type more.

Bard may be another option - someone else would have to give advice on it though, I don't know much about bards.

Strata

Rogue serpent is fun. I'm not completely rogue, but cityless. It's more exciting when your enemies hate you for reasons YOU machinated instead of "Well... they enemied me because I'm part of this or that house or city."

Strata

Here is my illustration of what you can expect in terms of learning either class.

Synbios

From the graph measuring the learning curve, am I understanding this as "as you gain more and more artefacts, the difficulty of fighting as occultist actually spikes into Lunatic-Mode territory"?

Iocun

Yes. More artefacts means having to carry more stuff and having more sharp stuff to poke your eyes out if you trip. Not even to mention all the artefact polishing you'll have to do every day if you don't wish to look like a hobo.

Aktillum

"I'm looking for a class that will help me explore the game - decent travelling skills and good escape skills"

"good defence or escape skills are a bonus"

Universe, runaway, backflip, somersault, flying with balloons, chariots!

"I prefer versatile classes, with plenty of utility skills to keep me occupied"

Bombs, balloons, graffiti, suicide mice!

" I don't mind complexity - actually, it would probably be a bonus since there's more to learn"

Puppetry!

I think you should scrap the idea of a Serpent / Occultist and go Jester.

/inb4 haters

Borran

It really sounds like you are describing a druid or sentinel to me.

They are decently tanky. They can fly, AND track to specific people for social purposes, as well as normal travel. They have prismatic barriers for defense in combat or while exploring. They can reach virtually every location with ease. they have a marketable skill set that also increases they're sipping, and allows them to make their own curatives. Druids have passive curing, and a ton of utility in groves ranging from rezzes to honey that recovers your endurance and willpower, as well as possibly giving you extra lessons in a random skill.

Averi

I agree with @Aktillum, so much that I am making this a separate post in addition to hitting the agree button. 

You should like you are describing jester.   

Fitz

Daeir said:

Just play a goddamn Occultist. You're going to have trouble houseless though since some people want to perpetuate this whole YOU CAN'T LEARN HOUSE SKILLS ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE thing which is kind of stupid, so you're essentially relegated to either joining the Spirit Walkers or the Occultists. That or pray you find a tri-trans Occultist who's actually willing to teach you.

I think you fail to understand the reason behind why it is this way, or don't care anything about the history of the Class, but just scream in your modern-give-me-whatever-I-want-with-no-regard-to-anything-but-my-own-desires mindset that it's UNFAIR because there is a rich roleplayed history for why the Occultists are as they are. Nor do you appreciate the strides that the players take to keep it that way when there is no hardcoded mechanic to prevent anyone from being one like Devotionists and Necromancers have. 

tl:dr So I guess you're just mad cause you can't into teh rpz.

Mannimar

You're still assuming that no one will teach a rogue Occultist. I can think of six off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are several more that can be coerced into teaching you... In fact I can think of 3 Ashtani that would likely teach a rogue if they're still active. 

You should stop generalizing. I tritransed Occultist before joining a House, and then I engaged in well thought out "rpz" with a House that hates me. You won't trans your skills right away, but the class is secretive by nature. It's going to take a bit of work, you shouldn't expect things to be handed to you on a silver platter. That work is part of what makes the class fulfilling, but it's possible to get your mechanics covered while completely independent.

Eld

The serpent houses know class skills past Trans? :O

Penwize

Eld said:

The serpent houses know class skills past Trans? :O

You don't?  Damn, what are they even doing in Hashan?

Nim

@Daeir: You're being defeatist, and forgetting the thing about Achaea that actually makes it amazing - with enough time and effort, and that time and effort may certainly be substantial even for the player behind the character, you can accomplish just about anything*!

Joining a house might be the easy path to being an occultist. If you're not interested in taking a more difficult path, maybe you should either just stick to that or try a different class, but that difficult path always exists. If you tried hard enough, you might even make, for example, a Cyrenese occultist work!

People will totally tell you it's impossible, but what they actually mean is just that other people will actively resist your efforts - but Achaea is a conflict game, and conflict, at its heart, is about having and pursuing goals that conflict with others!

*Except being an urban forestal or a nature alchemist, or apparently ascending to Godhood in an IC manner. The latter is sort of understandable (although I wish it wasn't a definite no but more of just a thing that requires effort beyond even what Penwize throws out), and I always thought the former was really dumb and should be enforced via soft limitations rather than hard limits - especially now that curatives are eventually being moved out of being class skills anyway!

Eld

Penwize said:

Eld said:

The serpent houses know class skills past Trans? :O

You don't?  Damn, what are they even doing in Hashan?

Hanging my head in shame, as usual. (

Fitz

Here's my big issue with your attitude, as a player I think you have every right to play whatever class you want to play. As a character, my class and House has a rich history that has been ongoing since the beginning of the game and that I have personally been participating in on and off as I took breaks since 1999. The class roleplay has always been fundamentally the same, even during the uproar of autoclass and houses accepting whoever. There was a brief spate of Occies, and other factional classes, running higgildy-piggildly all over. Then, roleplay took over once more and everything became more centered. 

If you don't want to learn the lore of the class you want to play, that's fine. I personally don't give a shit if you want to be a trite, shallow character with no depth or understanding of what you are. You'll never attain deeper meaning within your own roleplay and never earn the respect of many of your peers. This is not an insult or slight against you personally, it's simply the way it is, because you characterize yourself as the person that jumps from profession to profession with no notice, on a whim. Eventually you'll find that no one wants to hire you, or in this case, play with you.

Now yes, I know you're going to bring up people like @Jovolo, @Mizik, and many others and loudly declaim, "But Fitzy, you irate piece of shit, THEY CLASSHOP!" Indeed they do, but most of their interactions when they do, they operate within the bounds of acceptable roleplay, or at least make an attempt and seek out other rogue teachers on their own and not whine about it. You, like I said just demand recognition without actually putting in effort, and then call it unfair when no one tosses you your pacifier. 

My question to you Daeir, is have you even tried to join the House? Do you actually even know anything about them? I suspect that you don't, especially due to the way you speak about it. I don't mean to toot the horn, but Occult roleplayers, even the rogues (talking about you @Mannimar) are fantastic people, and are a joy to be around. But only if you make the effort to say hello. No one is going to lend you a helping hand if you don't first acknowledge that you would like help, instead of demanding it.

As to the original post and the point of this thread. I've been playing Achaea since late 1998 on a variety of characters, and by far Serpent and Occultist have always been the best and most interesting classes. It really comes down to who you want to roleplay with, and what you want to roleplay as. Snakes are a bit harder to learn if you wish to pvp, outside of sniping, and Occultists have a learning curve now, but are much better in 1v1. They have lost alot of the things that I enjoyed as a younger player, but the friendships I've developed both in game and out of character are what keep me coming back to Fitz, while currently my snake lies fallow due to most of the people I enjoyed with him being gone, and him being currently houseless.

Were I the OP, I'd play around with a novice character of each class, get up to around level 20-30, and then make a decision. Above all though, go out and *meet* people.

Brethil

Thank you all for the valuable inputs.

Jesters seem interesting as well - they have good utility and are neutral. I've had a look around, but I can barely see any Jesters online. How hard would it be to trans the Jester skills as a rogue?

Do they share the reluctancy of Occultists, or are Jesters more open towards rogues?

Penwize

Brethil said:

Thank you all for the valuable inputs.

Jesters seem interesting as well - they have good utility and are neutral. I've had a look around, but I can barely see any Jesters online. How hard would it be to trans the Jester skills as a rogue?

Do they share the reluctancy of Occultists, or are Jesters more open towards rogues?

Jesters are very open, and the CIJ is actually a rogue house (in that they do not have a city at all), and I'd highly suggest trying them out before going full rogue if you want it.