Seafaring Related Suggestions

Kresslack

So, there's still a good number of people who enjoy and participate in seafaring, sailing, diving, fishing, etc on a regular basis. Since I keep noticing things that would be interesting, and hearing good suggestions from others, figured would make one thread instead of twelve.

To start, some recent things I've noticed:

- With ship commands, most are spoken as well as having an actual syntax counterpart (i.e. Say Full Sails | Ship Sails Full). There doesn't seem to be an unspoken syntax for Cast Off, requiring it to be spoken simply as Cast Off. I like to Say one thing to give anyone on board a more descriptive indication of what's happening. Instead of just saying 'Row', I usually say something like "Dip the oars and row, put your backs into it!" Something to make it a little more interesting and not so bland, and I follow it with the unspoken ship command to ensure the order is carried out. In summary, ensuring commands that are spoken can also be used via syntax of SHIP <command> would be nice.

- Currently with Ship Trades, you can dump cargo, but you cannot transfer it between ships like you can with crew. Not sure how people feel about that being an option, but I think it would be a good addition. Usually with ship trades, you have leftover remnants of cargo which you perhaps can't use immediately. If a friend should need it, or they didn't buy enough and need a  transfer, the option to exchange cargo with other ships would be very helpful. SHIP TRANSFER # OF <cargo> TO <ship id/alias/name> IN EXCHANGE FOR # <gold/specific cargo type> (can also just use 0 for one way transfers with  no exchange).

- Fixing the coral-encrusted chests found when diving to where there's a certain action with a time delayed result of pulling it out of the sand, compared to spamming PUSH|PULL|TURN chest for about three minutes and hoping it'll eventually pop loose. 

- Possibly reworking the things found in chests to be either more items than just gold, or slightly increasing the amount of gold found in chests. Currently the average is around 200-380 per room for regular chests, and around 1,000-2,500 for strongboxes which seem to be scarcer in comparison. 

Other people may have other ideas, or comments on the above. If so, feel free to post and discuss them here. More to come as more leagues are traveled. 

Sena

Can't you cast off with SHIP CASTOFF? I can't try it right now because of drydock, but I remember there being a way.

I like the rest of the ideas.

Silas

Increasing the gold is unnecessary, since diving is already too easy, and you can SHIP CASTOFF, iirc, to cast off non-verbally.

Ship trades could definitely use some tlc from the admins, though, to make them more attractive. They're a fun mechanic, but the limitations and the lack of variety (both in terms of what you can trade for and there being only two ports currently open for trading) really stifle it.

It'd be nice if you could trade cargo with other ships, and if the different cargo items could be traded individually similarly to comms. Some ports would randomly need armaments, or perfume, and would pay more than the base cost of that cargo for trade.

Ships are cool, and all, but right now there's just not enough reason to get out there and sail.

Kresslack

I logged back in to check, and yeah SHIP CASTOFF can be used for a non-verbal command. Not sure what I was thinking or what I tried at the time (tired as hell). 

And @Silas, I fully agree, there's currently not enough incentive for people to get out and sail. Encounters with sea creatures are at a low, and with only two major ports offering trade deals, they stay pretty calm. I spent a total of around five hours out on the seas today and only saw one other vessel. 

There's a lot of fun to be had sailing and exploring the seas. How many people would you wager have ever even bothered going to places like Karbaz, Lothos, or even Prasset Isle? And there's always the possibility that whlie out roaming around, you might in the right spot at the right time to be the person to discover a new area or contenient. Personally, I can't wait for the day Kashar is found.

Silas

I've been to all three, but there's not much incentive to go back beyond Lothos's bitchin' market. How dull the majority of the islands are probably plays a big part in keeping people off the seas, tbh, but it seems unlikely areas outside Sapience will be given much attention anytime soon given Sarapis's stance a few months back on bringing people back closer together on the mainland.

Kresslack

There some things such as big quests on some of the islands, and sometimes wares to purchase. I do wish there were -more- and diverse wares to purchase based on the island. Steampunk-like items from Clockwork might be an awesome thing(bracelets, hats, goggles, flasks, etc).

Thaumas

My main objection as all the islands are more-less (Zanzibaar is a notable exception) boring an unimaginative. Typical example is Colchis. While it's been designed very well (room descriptions and denizens), the content is severely lacking. Most of them are just stops in ship trade.

Lothos is an excellent example of what I want to see more, not just either desert sand or arctic islands with nothing but bashing fodder.

Btw, Kresslack I'm surprised you didn't see

Capt. + Owner:
  ADD|CLEAR|REMOVE|SHOW * PERMS  - * = BOARDING|CREW PERMS.
                         (e.g. SHIP ADD CREW PERMS SARAPIS)
  ALL STOP                  - stops!
  ANNOUNCE msg              - tell 'em all whatever you like.
  APPOINT who *             - * = CAPT[AIN], [CREW]CHIEF, HELM.
  CASTOFF                   - cast off from a harbour.

Thaumas

And I want islands with TEMPERATE climate. Not everything has to be extreme.

Blujixapug

Ok here's what I think Seafaring needs:

1. A major org-based competitive element.

Everything is in place for ships to fight each other, all that's lacking is a good reason to fight (beyond "we're pirates, let's do this"). Some reason for cities' ships to form fleets and sail against rival cities' fleets, whether as a means of warfare, or to fight over resources or territory.

I have no specific ideas here unfortunately. I struggle to come up with mechanics that aren't flawed. For example you could have cities 'claim' island harbours - but then it's a similar situation to Icons, where either you protect them 24/7, or an enemy city swoops in and takes them back when you log out.

It would be super cool if ships could bombard enemy cities from their harbour. Have it destroy rooms, like city destruction. But this wouldn't really work because only three of the six cities are coastal.

2. A couple of group PVE activities to get more people out on the ocean, to facilitate piracy. (Harpooning, Seamonsters.)

I think more people would be willing to engage pirates if they were prepared. If you're out with four people to do something, and you have a ballista and know how to use it, you're prepared to fight. If you're just sailing to Zanzibaar to go bashing and you don't even have an Arcanian Arm fitted, you're just gonna keep sailing.

2.1 Harpooning.

Deepsea fishing on steroids. It could require 3 people: one to sail, one to aim/fire the harpoon, one to haul it in or something. Harpooned fish would have an extremely good payout, but the act of harpooning would rapidly drain ship crew endurance so you could only do it for so long at a time, eg. 30-45 minutes.

2.2 More rogue seamonsters.

It just seems like a good way to make the ocean more lively, and hunting them down would be fun. It is heaps of fun to fight seamonsters. I don't know what kind of issues exist in terms of seamonster AI, presumably that's a problem. Plus you could give them rewards. You could have seamonsters occasionally drop treasure charts, that let you dive for a guaranteed good-or-better treasure. Fun.

Kresslack said:

There some things such as big quests on some of the islands, and sometimes wares to purchase. I do wish there were -more- and diverse wares to purchase based on the island. Steampunk-like items from Clockwork might be an awesome thing(bracelets, hats, goggles, flasks, etc).

I think the best way to do it would be to remove the PTV/shipreturn shortcut, and bump up all island quest and bashing payouts to take into account the sailing time required to reach them, turning them into better repeat destinations. Probably an unpopular move, but whatevs.

Kresslack

Whaling and getting stuff from sea creatures upon death were are already on the List from when I suggested them last year.

Shop combat between cities is already a working, if somewhat flawed, option. Thing is, besides one ship from Targ, the only cities that actual seem to train for ship combat are Ashtan and Mhaldor. Been holding my breathe for someone in Cyrene to start fighting, but the official regulation there seems to be training people to Wavecall four times once a threat is discerned.

I'd like if players aboard a ship got experience for sinking another ship that has crewmates and shipmates on it.

I don't agree with removing Shipreturn, as it's pretty useful.

Maybe chests like in diving could be randomly buried on islands.

Penwize

Also, honestly just sailing itself is boring as hell, because everything you do takes like 20 seconds to actually do.  Reducing the time on absolutely everything about Sailing by half would be a huge step toward making it not suck.  I wouldn't mind cruising around the oceans and such if it wasn't such a snorefest with how slow it is.

Thaumas

The distance makes it fun for me. Most of locations don't take too long either. Besides, you have your island hopping wings.

Taraus

Blujixapug said:

It would be super cool if ships could bombard enemy cities from their harbour. Have it destroy rooms, like city destruction. But this wouldn't really work because only three of the six cities are coastal.

ugh, on the surface, this sounds like such a great idea and I'd love it (I'd no longer have to just sail past Targ harbour and gesture rudely and emote throwing rum bottles), but my 80% still-asleep mind is already coming up with drawbacks. Mostly, cities just continuing to avoid naval combat entirely. I see two ways of defending - either someone from the attacked city actually sailing out to fire at the attack(ers), or developing some method of firing at a ship if they're within X rooms of the harbour with landbound weaponry. The former will almost NEVER happen, and the latter, I can see that being easily abused/misused/growing stale really quickly (lol border raids).

Also, would love to see more PVE seabound stuff - sea monsters, sure, but also rogue trading vessels running routes that aggressively try to wipe out the competition, and you have to either outsail or sink to continue running peacefully. (Did I just suggest ship bashing? I think I did. Ugh.)

Also, uncertain I get the "everything is so slow" argument, with regards to speeding it up. I'm notoriously impatient, and sailing is one of the few things IG I actually still enjoy, solo or not. Are you talking about overall movement, or...?

Blujixapug

I don't mind regular sailing, but chop mazes are incredibly annoying. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Zanzibaar for example is ok or even fun. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Umbrin/Colchis is mildly annoying. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Ilyrean is a total nightmare. They're a novelty the first time, solving the maze, finding your route. After that, they're a very irritating timesink that requires constant focus for 20+ minutes each way (more like 45+ minutes each way if you're having a particularly bad time).

Kresslack said:

 I don't agree with removing Shipreturn, as it's pretty useful.

I'm not suggesting removing Shipreturn. I'm specifically talking about the Pierce The Veil/Shipreturn combo, where you leave your ship parked at an island and can completely bypass the sailing trip. It's a nice perk of dragonhood, and it does require using your ship for nothing else. But if they were ever to consider increasing island payouts, balancing their bashing/questing to take into account the sailing trip required to get to and from them, the PTV/Shipreturn bypass completely wrecks that balance.

Exelethril

Blujixapug said:

I don't mind regular sailing, but chop mazes are incredibly annoying. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Zanzibaar for example is ok or even fun. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Umbrin/Colchis is mildly annoying. Sailing from Tasur'ke to Ilyrean is a total nightmare. They're a novelty the first time, solving the maze, finding your route. After that, they're a very irritating timesink that requires constant focus for 20+ minutes each way (more like 45+ minutes each way if you're having a particularly bad time).

Kresslack said:

 I don't agree with removing Shipreturn, as it's pretty useful.

I'm not suggesting removing Shipreturn. I'm specifically talking about the Pierce The Veil/Shipreturn combo, where you leave your ship parked at an island and can completely bypass the sailing trip. It's a nice perk of dragonhood, and it does require using your ship for nothing else. But if they were ever to consider increasing island payouts, balancing their bashing/questing to take into account the sailing trip required to get to and from them, the PTV/Shipreturn bypass completely wrecks that balance.

I agree with the chop mazes, they can be daunting and repetitive especially when on a tight schedule. I remember spending close to 2 hours with Wysteria trying to navigate from Zanzibaar to Ilyrean the first time around.

Kresslack

Blujixapug said:

I'm not suggesting removing Shipreturn. I'm specifically talking about the Pierce The Veil/Shipreturn combo, where you leave your ship parked at an island and can completely bypass the sailing trip.

I'm not understanding I guess what you're suggesting, because that's available if you can't PTV but have put the time and lessons into learning Seafaring to Trans, which requires sailing to various islands to begin with to attest a marque. I'm not a dragon, so perhaps that's why I'm missing some key point to that.

@Penwize the rate your ship turns and the rate at which the crew regains balance from completing an order is dependant on their crew experience levels and crew morale (HELP SHIP CREW for the breakdowns). If you want to cut the times in half, you'll have to treat them properly with good pay and good grub, and take the ship out often so they can get experience through regular sailing. If you don't sail often, the crew doesn't have the opportunity to increase in skill, which is what makes ships like a Strider with an Elite crew make turns in 3/4th the time it would take a Strider with a Lubber crew to make.

Jonathin

Long story short, PTV + Shipreturn is stupid.

Kresslack

I see now, instead of using a token or sailing back, just PTV. That was before I was fully awake.

Silas

I enjoy the more methodical pace of sailing, but totally agree that chops need to be looked at. I know @Delphinus had a bunch of ideas about making them storm tiles that you could sail through but they'd do damage based on the size of your ship, etc. Basically, anything but the brick wall they are now would be a better alternative.

Anaidiana

I would like to add the ability to ORDER SWASHBUCKLERS to move out of a room. 

Kinilan

There needs more content that matches the nature of seafaring as a group activity. Fishing needs trans seafaring and an str spec to be profitable. The trades are 90% trash with some not even being profitable. Diving is hit or miss and the mobs fill such a range that you either get crushed by tuna and sea dragons or the rest of it isn't worth your time. With the exception of Prin, Zanzi and Lothos none of the islands offer anything worth the trip.

Ship return encourages people NOT to sail.

The one sides nature of ship combat, that is how easy it is to escape and the number of defensive skills Vs the tactics available to attackers and fact that cutters have no real options against a strider means most people will just hit the gtfo button that is wavecall rather than even attempt to learn how to do anything else.

Chops are bullshit.

Let me say that one again. Chops are BULLSHIT!

War galleys are useless for a number of reasons and in no way worth their price.

The available content does not match the group nature of seafaring. Fishing and diving are a solo activity. You can run from combat  by yourself but you need a crew to sink all but the most incompetent sailors. Sinking people is the only real group activity and there isn't even a reward for it.

Also chops are bullshit.

There needs to be more group activities. The rewards for everything from trades to the islands you can visit need to match the investment in time and lessons and gold required to use a ship properly and the power of all the defensive abilities needs to be looked at.

Lastly, fuck chops.

Saibel

Would it be too much if windcutters were allowed to have onagers?

Kyrra

I wish I could PTV. I only shipreturn to the mainland since I have island hopping wings.

Ellodin

Kinilan said:

stuff

main reason i disagreed was because i really like chops

Kresslack

Chops never made much sense to me other than serving to be a type of maze or "You can't go here" hinderance. Why would one not be able to sail through -chops-? They're about a step above whitecaps.

Thaumas

I like sailing through chops in a cutter and I like to be near them in case some fat ship attacks me. Not everything has to be simplified and dumbed down for your convenience.

Exelethril

Thaumas said:

I like sailing through chops in a cutter and I like to be near them in case some fat ship attacks me. Not everything has to be simplified and dumbed down for your convenience.

I think it's important to find a balance between what's enjoyable and what isn't with the majority's opinion in mind in a game, as opposed to convenience. While forum opinion isn't exactly an accurate gauge, it does give a rough idea of what a few avid captains think about chops, they are annoying and make sailing boring and unenjoyable.

Edit: ack, phone typos.

Katzchen

Chops do give some situational benefit to a cutter over the larger vessels... I've never tried sailing through them in anything larger, but I'm sure it's horrible.

Ellodin

I think chops are actually pretty well-balanced for the amount of straight-line distance there is between various places.  Barring straight up getting lost, most trips don't take a long enough amount of time to be painful, assuming paying attention.  Maybe the concept of "chops" themselves being an obstruction seems a little odd, but I see it as a way to simulate the fact that you can't really just sail in a straight line through the ocean - take them to be particularly strong currents, and your ships don't have engines.

I found trips like Ilyrean to be irritating when my seastrider's crew was mutinous and lubber I, but for how far away it actually is, I don't think trips like those are really that bad.  It's a balance of being good for storytelling and good for convenience - it would be an outright pain to make walking as slow and dangerous as walking in the history of the game (see: Nicator?), but making journeys between island destinations straight stretches of calm waters would also be kind of ridiculous.

I guess I see the argument as something like "if you can fly, why can't you just ignore the roads/whatever other geographical features and go straight northwest to get from Shastaan to Ashtan?"  The answer is that you kind-of can, through the wilderness, but there's no separation between "wilderness" and "not-wilderness" with seafaring, so it's mostly open like the wilderness, but with obstacles that guide you in certain directions.

Iocun

What I mainly dislike about sailing is that it feel so mini-gamey. It's all neat in itself, but it's quite separated from the rest of the game, due to several factors:

- Not being able to fluidly switch from sailing to non-sailing. If you go on a sailing trip, you are committing to it for a while and can't just do something else on a moment's notice.

- The playerbase itself often being somewhat split up between sailors and non-sailors. There are some for whom sailing/diving/fishing/island-hopping is pretty much the main activity and others who shy away from it completely, which leads to those two groups rarely ever interacting.

- Many ship combat encounters staying entirely ship-vs-ship battles, with no forceboarding, making violent encounters a bit less direct and interactive and making many of the non-ship game commands meaningless.

- The lack of meaningful faction-vs-faction encounters on the sea, which makes it a more personal business than many encounters on the land. Furthermore, there also tend to be almost no neutral/friendly encounters. I most cases, either ship A and ship B ignore each other, or one of them tries to sink the other, or both try to sink each other. This makes seafaring encounters much less varied than encounters on the land.

All of this makes it hard for me to experience sailing as an aspect of Achaea that's truly integrated with the rest of the game and thus turns me a bit off. I have no real idea what could be done to fix that though.

Kresslack

@Thaumus, if like chops only for the reason of a potential bail out of trouble, I have news for you: that's going to fail you should you run into a sea creature or citadel which can traverse chops. You can get away from nearly anything by playing the wind, using the spells, and having a good crew. Last time I ran into trouble I couldn't confront, in the form of three Phocian Battle-Citadels, on the way to Meropis, that's exactly how I spared my ship and crew a disastrous end.

@Ellodin: I'm not sure what an alternative would be that would work well, but I doubt it would be all open, calm ocean and smooth sailing. Someone mentioned here or elsewhere that chops could be sailed through, but comes with taking regular damage to the vessel which is adjusted by how rough/calm the seas are when you're doing it.

@Iocun: Things actually used to be more like that about a year or two ago. If you spotted a ship, you hailed it and if they hailed back they were usually a friend, and if they ignored the hailing and tried to run away that was usually an indication they were a potential target. 

I like that sailing is somewhat separate from mainland things, in the sense that if you take a ship out, you have to dock it somewhere to keep it safe and end the trip. Sure, you could leave it anchored or unanchored out in the middle of the ocean and abandon it, but I wouldn't expect it to be there wen you got back. Thus, the option to opt-out of the sailing venture whenever you want is there with Tokens, but sailing is an invested adventure and there are losses to that investment as a result of carelessness.

There used to be actual faction based rivalries, but the only people who really bothered stepping up and playing ball were Ellodin and Naisar, and they damn sure played ball. Hashan attempted a 5v1 ship ambush once, but that didn't work out much in their favour and sense then it's still been just Ellodin and Naisar cruising the seas giving any potential resistance. I've been hoping more people would get involved all around, but the fact of the matter is, sailing is pretty boring business if you're not the captain and don't have anything to actively do.

In regards to faction based seafaring combat, that requires people to take the interest and initiative to train and prepare for those instances, rather than training falling to the regular practice of wavecalling away multiple times as soon as another ship is even seen. Skirmishes with The Hokulea against Ellodin and Naisar were some of the most fun instances of seafaring I've had.