Journal/scroll ownership

Sybilla

At the moment, as far as I understand it, only the owners (that is, whoever bought the item) are able to write in their own journal and scrolls. If you want a work to have multiple authors, you'd have to use a manuscript.

Would people like a system where you could bestow a journal to someone else and change ownership?

I suppose it would work similarly to mounts - they're yours and you can get them to follow other people (you can still GIVE JOURNAL TO X and they can read and not write, feed to a humgii, sell off, whatever) or you can choose to hand it over and make it theirs.

It could list previous owners. It could keep previous owner's written pages uneditable. If it is editable, it could show it on the page itself ("This page has been changed/corrected by NewOwner"). Maybe it can only be done the once - OldOwner to OnlyNewOwner. 

Thoughts?

Edit: As @Anaidiana pointed out - you could buy journals for other people on the get go:

BUY JOURNAL/SCROLL [from denizen] FOR PERSON and it would be carried off by dove to them immediately. I presume this would make them the original owner, bypassing yourself possibly?

Anaidiana

or an inexpensive (5-10cr max) artifact token where you can change the journal to being yours so people could buy a journal for someone (like a protégé) and then the protégé can actually write in the book. Please. 

Sybilla

@Anaidiana that's what I mean. You (PersonA) buy a journal, it's yours, you want to give it to PersonB and let them write in it, so you can bestow the journal on them so it's theirs. 

Do you mean that you would still be able to write in it yourself? So two people own it, rather than multiple like the manuscript?

Anaidiana

@sybilla no, not two people owning it.

 

Person A buys journal. Person B would buy the artifact/token/bookplate/whatever to change the owner's mark on the journal so they may write in it. Your idea was for person A to have the syntax to give the journal away. Mine was the flip side of the coin, where Person B has to put out to make the journal theirs. Although, if Person A really wanted it to be a 'gift', they can pay the 5-10cr for the token/designator (credits just would have to be unbound.

 

Alternatively, add a syntax to whenever someone buys a journal at the getgo.

BUY JOURNAL (from seller) would make it yours. BUY JOURNAL FOR X (from seller) would have it wrapped and sent by dove to the recipient. (we do have mail packages now). This change, however, would not be retroactive, and so the 5-10cr token to change ownership could still be viable for old journals that people want to give to others.

Sybilla

Ah I see! Would that not force things though? I could just credit-buy off an enemy's library and make their stuff mine?

Anaidiana

point: enemy would likely not allow you to even check books out of their library, and once they're in circulation, they're owned by that library. I know I have tight lending perms on my house library

Sybilla

I mean library as collective term of journals an enemy might be carrying around with them. 

Anaidiana

can't thief the way we used to, either. Still moot point.

Sybilla

Sybilla buys a special journal. She writes her phobias and allergies in it, and carries it along with her as she traipses about the lands.

RichKid steps into the bar, finds her obnoxious, and overhears her talking about her special phobia book. RichKid buys token to change book ownership to himself.

Now what?

What if Sybilla thought RichKid has interesting calligraphy, lends him her book to have him look at hers, then RichKid buys token?

I don't see how you want it to work in this way, is what I'm saying. Surely the responsibility of giving your property away should be on you? You can still sell your journal this way, before handing it over. It'd be up to you, no?

Anaidiana

fair enough.

Jonners

I agree, the owner needs to be the 'seller/gifter'. Or there needs to be some sort of mutual agree mechanic put in; this would be similar to credit or crown sales (for money).

Penwize

Slightly different point than is being discussed, but I always disliked that books became marked as yours as soon as you bought them.  It makes buying and then subsequently reselling or gifting special books impossible, which is a real pain in a lot of cases.  I would rather see books be unmarked when purchased, and only gain someone's mark the when they WRITE to it.  That way, I can buy a journal for my protege, and it becomes his as soon as he writes something into it.

That doesn't address the multiple owners/writers issue for journals, but I still feel it's an important point that would address a fair chunk of it.

Sybilla

@Penwize I like that idea! That could work quite nicely too.

Now I'm wondering if manuscripts should list all authors that worked on it too.

Jonners

Sybilla said:

Now I'm wondering if manuscripts should list all authors that worked on it too.

Gods I hope not.

Edit- How would it work? A listing of all authors on the probe? Author listed on the page?

Sybilla

Maybe how signed letters look like? I'm not sure.

Hmm, what about just the names, without the titles? "This manuscript bears the mark of Bob, John, and Tracyfromaccounting"?

Silas

This came up actually a couple of days ago. It'd be nice if there was a way to either sell a journal with pages filled in, or buy a journal, write in it, then give it to somebody else.

The idea that came up was for newbie handbooks to be produced and given out to all novices. Obviously this would be impossible at present, but I think it'd be a really nice touch. Any way of helping with this would be great.

Jonners

I hate quotes.

This is entirely possible, they can't write in it any more, but there are Crafter's Compendium's being sold in Delos.

Xith

Penwize said:

Slightly different point than is being discussed, but I always disliked that books became marked as yours as soon as you bought them.  It makes buying and then subsequently reselling or gifting special books impossible, which is a real pain in a lot of cases.  I would rather see books be unmarked when purchased, and only gain someone's mark the when they WRITE to it.  That way, I can buy a journal for my protege, and it becomes his as soon as he writes something into it.

That doesn't address the multiple owners/writers issue for journals, but I still feel it's an important point that would address a fair chunk of it.

While we're on all of these subjects, could journals maybe be unowned by default, but require CLAIMing in order to use them.

This way, exotic journals could even be amassed and sold in a shop.

I actually bought one from Umbrin or something (soldier's journal?) when Xith was a young'n, and stocked it in my rental shop, not realizing that it couldn't be used except by me.

It ended up sold though, so it was some other poor sucker's problem.

Silas

Jonners said:

I hate quotes.

This is entirely possible, they can't write in it any more, but there are Crafter's Compendium's being sold in Delos.

The point is that this journal would become the newbie's journal, meaning they could write their own crap in it as well.

Sybilla

So:

Option 1

Bob buys a journal. It bears no distinctive mark (like manuscripts) until he, or whomever he gives it to, writes in it. 

When Bob or Bobprotege write in the journal, it will bear their mark, and function as journals do currently (only Bob or his protege can ever write in it).

Possibilities:

Hoard any and all special journals to give to people you like, to sell, to lob at ogres, whatever you want.

Bob can't BESTOW JOURNAL TO <person> (stand-in syntax, feel free to suggest better options), meaning he can't carry someone else's journal unless that someone else has given it to him.

Downsides:

As @Silas says (correct me if I'm wrong), Bob can't write "Welcome to Targossas, here's a map of all the best falafel joints in town" on the first page, and give the journal to his protege to write in the rest of the book as she pleases. This option would make it Bob's and only Bob's as soon as he writes in it.

Option 2

Bob buys a journal. It's his, as normal. He can write what he likes in it, and decide to pass it along to his protege so she can have somewhere to write.

Bob can now BESTOW JOURNAL TO <protege> (again, think of better syntax), she can agree - if we want to do it like this - and the journal is now in her hands, bearing her mark.

Possibilities:

If she returns the journal to Bob, it would still be hers and he can't write in it.

She can write on the pages he left blank.

Maybe an option "FOR 20,000 GOLD" for those who want to sell the journal on, rather than just give it?

Things to consider:

Should she be able to write over the pages Bob wrote? If so (I think yes), does the page show it had Bob's writing on it before? Does the journal itself give any indication it passed through Bob's hands (with or without his writing?) before going to her?

Option 3

Bob goes somewhere out of the way, like Zanzibaar on a whim. He finds a journal, thinks his protege would like it, but doesn't have means to realistically make the trip all over just so she can buy her own. BUY JOURNAL FOR <person> [from Denizen] - would get it packaged and sent off to the protege immediately, not passing through Bob's hands at all.

This can be combined with other options, of course. Maybe protege decides she doesn't like it so much and wants to pass it on?

Other other things to consider!

How many times could/should this exchange be possible?

Would this keep all current journals as they are? I wouldn't want to lose the mark on every IG journal just to have random people claim them as theirs.

I'm guessing single-owner scrolls would be subject to the same treatment?

Hm, that's all I can think to ask for now, may come up with more later.