Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Targossas in the full World Map

KronKron Member Posts: 13
Can the Full World Map be updated to include Targossas and recent changes? It is handy for newcomers to orientate themselves exploring the world. Starting to understand where things are without the aide of Landmarks.

Comments

  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I seem to recall @Sarapis or @Tecton asking around a while back for people with the time, expertise, and interest to do an updated version of that map; not sure if they every got any takers.

    A much smaller issue than deleting Shallam and adding Targossas, but if any updating is done to it, perhaps someone could fix the spelling of Matsuhama, Urumbaba, Ainghaeal, and the Parthren Gare. 
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited August 2013
    That's a player-created map and will depend on players taking it and updating it. (Like, we don't even have the source file for that.)
    Post edited by Sarapis on
  • KronKron Member Posts: 13
    edited August 2013
    Thank you for the reply @Sarapis and @Eld.

    If anybody points me in the direction of how to start writing a script/program to generate a map like this, I could take that task myself.

    Plus I think it could be enhanced to support searching. Would help novices explore the map, learning it and enjoying the world more, instead of depending so much in the Landmarks (which takes shortcuts and can be very confusing).
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    I believe it was created by hand actually, though I'm unsure. 
    Cahin
  • KronKron Member Posts: 13
    edited August 2013
    The map.xml file, that the Mudlet mapper downloads, has 17,346 rooms. Does that number look correct?

    It is all well formatted in xml, which is very useful. I checked and the exits from one area to the other are well described as well.

    Just need to check if that file is complete and I can start investigating about how to visualize it.
    Python GIS and SAX tools... haven't used those in a while heh
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    No, that's way less rooms than actually exist, though I'm unsure where the difference is. Likely that list of rooms contains most of the common/major game areas though.

  • KronKron Member Posts: 13
    @Sarapis do you think the original map covers more than the common/major game areas?

    I can start with this data, and get my feet wet. I prefer getting some progress done before asking anybody to spend time trying to gather the full/necessary data.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Hmm, no, I'd say the original map covers a lot of the common/major game areas, though it definitely was not the whole world.

    If you can produce something that's usable that'd be fantastic.
    KronBoosteya
  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,456 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Speaking of maps, what's going on with the wilderness map IG. The Targa and Seaview roads aren't on it yet, eh? Where's my Targ love?

    Carmell
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    It's been too cloudy for our spy satellites to grab aerial shots of it.

    So, this gives me proper reason to get up close to Lord Vastar's abs and complain?
    AnaidianaWysteriaHalos
  • AzorAzor Member Posts: 145
    Maybe @Delphinus will help us!
  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,456 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2013
    Help us Delphinus you're our only hope

  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2013
    @Kron: Yeah, that map that you linked to in your OP is horribly out of date. I think at least a decade old. There have been quite a few changes in that time, though the map still serves to give an idea for general scale and direction (as the crow flies, not particulars) to get to an area. In this way, it's purpose is quite similar to @Delphinus's wonderful map, here.

    As for taking the Mudlet mapper .xml file, and parsing it with a DOM script to produce, say, an SVG (since you're using Python, my favourite language, I would recommend pySVG), while this is possible, I think that you'll run into certain problems. It might be best explained with the aid of HELP ENVIRONMENT:

    Imagine a world, complete with continents, mountains, rivers, cities,
    deserts, forests, and so on. Then, imagine that world divided up into
    sections of varying size. These sections, called ROOMS, can be of any
    size, from a nook in a hall to a large section of a desert. Generally,
    indoor rooms will represent much less space than outdoor rooms but this
    rule, like most rules, has exceptions.
    You'll see the bolded statement in effect in the whole world map: some lines connecting rooms (hereafter, these lines will be called "exits") are much longer than others, because the area represented by some rooms is larger than that represented by others. Humans are capable, with much work, or determining the length of these exits intuitively, but it takes quite a bit of work to determine proper scale, etc; it all has to be done by hand. A computer has no way to figure out how large of an area some rooms represent.

    Because of this, you will find that any picture drawn by a computer program will have quite a bit of overlap where some rooms will cover others and their exits, and the result will be quite a jumbled mess.

    If you are intent upon doing this, your best bet is probably to treat it like this: draw each "area" separately, and then stitch the resultant SVG files together in a paint program. Even then, you'll face the problem mentioned above, albeit on a much smaller and more-easily handled scale. Then, you just fix each area, and stitch them together.

    EDIT: Just realized that the Mudlet mapper has to have some X,Y,Z data about best place to place rooms relative to one another in a given area, as it doesn't suffer the overlap problem. So, that will make it quite a bit easier. But, there isn't any data about how to piece areas together. Anyway, my recommendation stands: do it area by area and piece it together.
    Post edited by Nizaris on
    image
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    A really salient example of this problem will end up being that of Hashan and the Northern Ithmia. If you look at the Mudlet map for the Northern Ithmia, and you count the number of steps that it takes to get from Hashan's southern defendable (A widening trail) to the defendables on either side of the Road of Eternity, you're talking about 11 rooms. Yet, once inside of Hashan, you're talking ~25 rooms.

    This problem is really evident looking at the small size of the hole in the N.I. that the entire city of Hashan has to squeeze into, using the X,Y,Z data for the room sprites from the Mudlet mapper.
    image
  • KronKron Member Posts: 13
    edited August 2013
    @Nizaris: After some investigating I came to the same conclusions than what you say and I agree completely. The most sound menthod is to write code that draws each area and then manually draw the connections and highways.

    Thank your insight. My only interest in automating as much as reasonable is to make it easier to update in the future, and not spend then next decade again with a map that slowly get outdated. This said, it is more important to have a good map than an easy to remake one.

    I got in contact with Kefka, the person who makes the notorious maps for Discworld and he told me he does them by hand, and how he updates them with new/changed areas.
  • AnaidianaAnaidiana Member Posts: 826 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2013
    In all honesty, redundant map is redundant. Sha's map was made WAY back in the day before we had the MAP command (let alone CONFIG MAPSHOW ALL), and most clients have integrated mappers or people buy the scripts. 

    We also have HELP 12, where the first line or two of every scroll tells you about where to look to find the area:

    12.10.2 The Granite Hills

    These are a range of hills running from the coast north of Ashtan to
    Belladona's Keep on the east.


    12.5.17 Qurnok

    The village of Qurnok is a small, dark patch of swamp near Green Lake,


    12.8.7 Actar, the Valley of

    The Actar valley is located in the Southern Vashnar mountains on the highway to
    Cyrene. 


    12.5.6 The Azdun Dungeon

    The Azdun Dungeon, located beneath the ruins of a castle in the Dakhota Hills,


    If anything, I'd say that as long as Delph keeps his beautiful map updated, everything should be fine. 




    image
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    When I first started playing, I printed out a B&W version of that map. I taped it to my wall and it was my lifeline. That was the only way I could get around. An up to date browser-version map would be amazing, even if it was just the rooms mapped in the IG mapper, ignoring the stuff not mapped.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    Blujixapug
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, for newbies that map and Asara's stuff is amazing. Would be cool to see it updated anyway though, if for nothing other than to see the comparison between the world now and then.

    JonathinAchimrstMannimar
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Kron: best of luck to you. That map really does need to be updated, so I hope that you have some measure of success.

    Even if you only accomplish a really easy way to script pictures of each area's map together whenever there is a change, that will be a huge leap forward, and something that can really be usable. But, if you succeed in accomplishing the bigger task, all the more power to you.
    image
  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,104 @ - Epic Achaean
    The MMP map provided by IRE is a good start, but it often lags behind the areas that are added and is incomplete. It also lacks things like special exits on it.

    I'd recommend making your own exporter in Mudlet using the crowdsourced map - Mudlet's API allows you to easily export 100% of the data. From there on you can format it in any way you'd like and create your map builder.

    You could also try doing something within Mudlet - you can script where which rooms should be, and you can put all rooms into one area so it shows at once - and lastly, you can export the whole area as a high-res png from Mudlet. Even add stuf like background pictures and text labels on it if you'd like! It's a pretty good solution here.
  • KronKron Member Posts: 13
    @Vadimuses: That is an interesting approach, I will definitely give it a try!
  • BereneneBerenene Member Posts: 1,892 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2013
    Jonathin said:
    When I first started playing, I printed out a B&W version of that map. I taped it to my wall and it was my lifeline. That was the only way I could get around. An up to date browser-version map would be amazing, even if it was just the rooms mapped in the IG mapper, ignoring the stuff not mapped.
    I did that with colour, but it wasn't to put up on the wall, or to help me get around, I was just bored one weekend and wanted something to do...and then it lived an a giant cardboard board sitting between my bed and the wall. I found it again when I moved out.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my hounds!
    Krenim: Hounds? How cliche.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my rape gorilla!
    Krenim: ...We'll show ourselves out.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2013
    Talk about obscure wall art. In fifty years your grandkids are going to wtf. I personally love the idea though. Do you have a pic of your placement?

    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • BereneneBerenene Member Posts: 1,892 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I used to.  I actually to progressive pics of putting it together but alas, I cannot find them.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my hounds!
    Krenim: Hounds? How cliche.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my rape gorilla!
    Krenim: ...We'll show ourselves out.
  • VansittartVansittart Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sarapis said:
    I disagree and think it'd be wonderful to have a room by room map that is up to date.

    Just chiming in to agree with this SO MUCH.  I honestly don't think I would have made it past newbiehood without Shazara's room map, and later Asara's.  They allow navigation in such a more newbie friendly way than MAP, and they don't require that you're using zmud or svo or all the other things long term players take for granted.  I still use Shazara's map now.

    I would *love* it to be updated, and I think it'd be a huge plus for newbies.

  • ShazaraShazara Member Posts: 6
    Sarapis said:
    I believe it was created by hand actually, though I'm unsure. 
    Yes sir.
  • ShazaraShazara Member Posts: 6
    Sarapis said:
    I disagree and think it'd be wonderful to have a room by room map that is up to date.
    If this comment still stands hit me up with an avatar or something so I can get around without getting killed and you just might get another but better. I always wanted to come back and do another map but then was like...oh zMud is not a thing, I don't know what skirmishing is, and all my stuff decayed. I don't really want to play again but this could be fun!
    Finchy
This discussion has been closed.