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The Shadow Wars

JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
War is virtually invisible to the majority of us non-combatants. Even with deathsight up it can be difficult to determine whether the battle is in Targossas, Eleusis, or wherever. I propose there be some sort of world emote added to note when a room (or several) is destroyed in a city perhaps with accolades being noted appropriately.
~
You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
Tagged:
KorbenSaibelVayneSylvanceEchaldZenuiRheveMazothSantarKatzchenViciousKyrraAchimrstKresslackXithJespar

Comments

  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think that is a good idea...something like:

    "A victorious cheer erupts from Mhaldor, its forces sucessfully repelling a sanctioned raid by Targossas."

    "A violent explosion shakes the firmament, clouds of smoke rising from Mhaldor."
    image
    KatzchenBluefAchimrst
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Jonners said:
    War is virtually invisible to the majority of us non-combatants. Even with deathsight up it can be difficult to determine whether the battle is in Targossas, Eleusis, or wherever. I propose there be some sort of world emote added to note when a room (or several) is destroyed in a city perhaps with accolades being noted appropriately.
    I love it and hate it at the same time. I guess if we go with the stock "It's telepathy" it's nothing anymore jarring than the names thing.

    If implemented, would like to see this quite generic, such as "The City of Ashtan has suffered a serious loss at the hands of the Hashani Legion", rather than naming rooms.

    Also, perhaps if this were set up as a defense, a la deathsight, it would be a good use for one of the currently useless herbs.

    ETA: Damned ninja
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • EchaldEchald Member Posts: 281 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It would probably be less jarring than those elaborate deathsights involving tritons and such.
    Sylvance
  • WysteriaWysteria Member Posts: 1,826 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Maybe after three rooms get destroyed, it sets off a trigger with Thalos in Delos randomly shouting it out like he would a Foozle game? Or something to that accord? He able to keep track of everyone's movements Sapience wide, it's not like his seer powers would take a break during the downtimes in that respect.

    and yes I know he's a player denizen but still
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

    Sylvance
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1. It's Tharos.

    2. Tharos handles events, games, entertainment type things. He has no place shouting out about a war or battle taking place.

    image

    JonathinBlujixapugSylvanceFirien
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I would prefer this idea to be tied in with war rework, if and when it happens. Would be nice if sanctioned raids were globally broadcast instead of just the city.
    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • NemutaurNemutaur GermanyMember Posts: 1,068
    Daeir said:
     If you see any ashuran monk/nemutaur choking someone to death, Ashtan is winning.
    Oi! I am Ashuran!
    Kyrra
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    A global emote when a room is destroyed could be cool. "Black smoke clouds the horizon as Eleusis is sacked and pillaged by the army of Cyrene." My one possible issue with that is that seeing a chain of that message 5 times in a row would cheapen it, because repetition = boring, so maybe there could be a pool of messages from which a random one is drawn each time.

    On the war system, which probably deserves its own thread...

    Literally any form of win condition would be better than the current system, where the lack of one means the best way to pursue victory is to grief the other team so hard that eventually either 1. they beg their leader to surrender, 2. they replace their leader with one who'll surrender, or 3. their leader surrenders to stem the flow of citizens quitting the city/game.

    I would like to see it remain fluid in terms of win conditions, with many different types to pick from, rather than one-war-fits-all. My ideal system would have a setup where before declaring war, city leaders approach their patron and the other city leader OOC, and arrange a different, relevant win condition for each war. Or for a couple of major battles within each war. That way you can have wars be about a specific issue, and have the gameplay reflect that, rather than an Events post afterwards that makes stuff up.

    Some examples:

    - Ashtan and Mhaldor go to war over who controls the Sapphire Sea. One battle is a full on navy vs navy fight to the death, prearranged to take place at X time when lots of people will be logged on.

    - Targ goes to war with Hashan to try and eradicate Darkness. One battle is army vs army in the entire area of Adryn's Keep, with each side trying to hold a specific room for 45 minutes to unlock and claim/destroy a token relic.
    That's unworkable as a game system. If city leaders wanted to do this now, they could, but they don't, and they won't generally.
    DartegaBlujixapug
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,561 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nemutaur said:
    Daeir said:
     If you see any ashuran monk/nemutaur choking someone to death, Ashtan is winning.
    Oi! I am Ashuran!

    They probably think you're playtesting a new class. Remember the early days of blademasters?

  • WysteriaWysteria Member Posts: 1,826 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Santar said:
    1. It's Tharos.

    2. Tharos handles events, games, entertainment type things. He has no place shouting out about a war or battle taking place.
    Ah that's the name, thanks. I've only ever been present for maybe I think 3 world games so never really caught the name.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    A global emote when a room is destroyed could be cool. "Black smoke clouds the horizon as Eleusis is sacked and pillaged by the army of Cyrene." My one possible issue with that is that seeing a chain of that message 5 times in a row would cheapen it, because repetition = boring, so maybe there could be a pool of messages from which a random one is drawn each time.

    That's why I added the '(or several) [rooms]' in brackets. Wouldn't want it to be spammy, just informative. I could see this energising people to actually try to help out with their city defence too. At least, that's the hope.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • SabiruSabiru Member Posts: 261 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2013
    Agree.

    Shala-khulia got me back into the game after 12 months or more of not logging in for longer than a few minutes. It was a terrible event for other reasons (largely the post-event handling of it, but I understand things got hectic with the sudden realisation that whoa, they weren't kidding - groves and forest defs are ridiculous), but it felt meaningful. This war system cheapens everything it touches, and it should be fixed and not extended in its current direction.
    BlujixapugZeonSherazadDraekar
  • KaevanKaevan Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sabiru said:
    Agree.

    Shala-khulia got me back into the game after 12 months or more of not logging in for longer than a few minutes. It was a terrible event for other reasons (largely the post-event handling of it, but I understand things got hectic with the sudden realisation that whoa, they weren't kidding - groves and forest defs are ridiculous), but it felt meaningful. This war system cheapens everything it touches, and it should be fixed and not extended in its current direction.
    That's actually the first IG conflict that came to mind after I read Jurixe's post, too. 
    RuthSherazad
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthMember Posts: 956 @ - Epic Achaean
    I agree, man cannot live on tears alone.
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


  • EchaldEchald Member Posts: 281 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2013

    Deucalion once gave a TF to everyone that was in the room being destroyed. This epic narrative element will be remembered for generations to come and probably slipped through the cracks to be made into an events post.

    A system as suggested in this thread might be interesting, but I don't think it would help much with the Hashan-Mhaldor war as I don't believe Hashan managed to use up a tank yet and are busy sharpening up that raiding powah. The part about Ourania and the fog-sucking meteors was interesting, and it would likely be better if the Mhaldor-Targossas conflicts had that kind of Divine interaction, but I think the Good Gods will be busy building up Targ for quite a while yet.

    But, yeah, at least a worldwide message when a room explodes would give a better sense of grandeur to the whole thing, it is the big point of being a city soldier under the current system.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited July 2013
    Sabiru said:
    Agree.

    Shala-khulia got me back into the game after 12 months or more of not logging in for longer than a few minutes. It was a terrible event for other reasons (largely the post-event handling of it, but I understand things got hectic with the sudden realisation that whoa, they weren't kidding - groves and forest defs are ridiculous), but it felt meaningful. This war system cheapens everything it touches, and it should be fixed and not extended in its current direction.
    Xhaiden Dale is one of my favourite memories of playing this game.

    The Occultists and the Church were simultaneously informed that there was a vault hidden inside an ancient statue in Xhaiden Dale, which held a Babelite Chaos relic (an athame or a chalice or both, I forget). So the Church rallied Shallam, and the Occultists rallied Ashtan, and both sides were fighting this huge area-wide battle to try and hold one particular room in the middle of Xhaiden Dale for long enough for someone to figure out a puzzle controlling the vault's locking mechanism. It went back and forth a couple of times with each side routing the other to hold the room. It was very intense and fun.

    The story made it memorable. The win condition (open vault = win = battle over) kept it brief, I think it went for about an hour after the fighting started. The lack of advanced warning meant that while it was an area battle, there was no entrenchment before combat started.
    But that's not a war system. That's a custom one-off event, and we will never, ever be able to pull those off to a satisfactory level on a reliably repeatable basis. They can happen as and when we have the resources to make them happen, but as much as we'd like to have them available or happening constantly or in quick response to player actions, we don't have even near to the resources we need to make that a possibility. 

    Those are the kinds of things we can do as events, but not that often at all.

  • AzorAzor Member Posts: 145
    What @Sarapis mentioned earlier would be very nice, but there'd have to be some innovative way to avoid its going the way of previous attempts to hard-code some parameters and rewards for extended mass conflict. With both the old landmark system and the House icons, parameters for winning and losing are set. There is a flurry of rather enjoyable conflict. But eventually, as with anything else with big consequence, all sides optimize their tactics, and you end up with a situation where the superior force is always (or almost always) winning, and the other almost always losing. 

    With landmarks, this manifested itself as a long run where all landmarks were controlled by Good, a score of 9-0 cycle after cycle, which, along with the repetitiousness of the tasks, was the death of the system.

    With Icons, almost all the Houses initially put them up, and then there was a lot of skirmishing and "wars," but over time it's become clear that Ashtan has the superior force--or at least superior enough that city leaders aren't willing to risk the gold and, more importantly, the demoralization, of mounting an Icon effort only to fail. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the status quo is that only Ashtani Houses have Icons, plus whatever other Houses Ashtan will suffer to have them. The recent Druids battle was tied to revocation of the Druids' favored status. So, it was good while it lasted, but I see only sporadic Icon battles in the near future.

    I've kind of lost track of my point. Perhaps it's this: if you have a system that can result in 7 million gold paid as "reparations," you have to watch out to make sure that one group can't establish clear superiority and then repeat the procedure again and again until the enemy's coffers are entirely empty. The sanctioned raid system is successful because it piggybacks on what players were already doing, which is taking advantage of fleeting conditions of superior (or equal) defensive and offensive forces to have a battle with limited, but real consequence. The fact that defensive forces lose nothing for dying but can gain something by getting kills adds an incentive even if you're on the losing side.
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    But that's not a war system. That's a custom one-off event, and we will never, ever be able to pull those off to a satisfactory level on a reliably repeatable basis. They can happen as and when we have the resources to make them happen, but as much as we'd like to have them available or happening constantly or in quick response to player actions, we don't have even near to the resources we need to make that a possibility. 

    Those are the kinds of things we can do as events, but not that often at all.
    I understand. The same things that made it fun are also the reasons why it couldn't happen on a regular basis, and couldn't be coded into a self-contained system. I was just giving an anecdote of a war-like event I enjoyed, and why I enjoyed it (story, brevity, and without the usual entrenchment of city/Icon raids).

    One argument I would make is that war is extremely infrequent in Achaea. There have been maybe 3-4 wars in the last 5 years. A battle scenario is something much smaller in scope to prepare than something like the Bal'met event. Although if wars were fun, people might start declaring war much more often, so that logic would no longer apply...
    image
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think the recent divine players(Ourania, Duecora, Sartan) have been created a good precedent for establishing more interesting, consequential, and significant conflicts. The have orchestrated little events relevant to the cities, as well as their various sub-factions, and their philosophies in the conflicts between both the refugees and Mhaldor and Hashan. It does give some legitimacy to the conflict, encouraging players to get involved just to be a part of the bigger story going on, and that's a good thing. I think it's the adventurer players, namely the leaders turn to step up and follow the gods lead!
    image
    Sylvance
  • MazothMazoth Member Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jurixe said:
    Blujixapug manages to say what I'm thinking better than I can and is probably not typing on a phone, so just assume I agree with whatever he says. I was going to say the same thing - in general, proper "War!"-type wars aren't frequent at all, as far as I know - we're not saying for every random raid or extermination to need a grand event. On my side, I was talking more about the Divines of the respective cities providing more clear objectives for winning the war, and perhaps spearheading the conflict themselves - it seems to make much more sense story-wise, as well as giving it that epic feel and does a lot motivation-wise to see your God rally you to battle. It would also mean that city leaders wouldn't be able to declare war as they pleased without admin approval and clear guidelines for victory, which honestly I can only see as a good thing in this particular situation.
    I think this sounds great.  I understand the Divine are busy and have many things to manage and do, but even just a setup that requires defined sets of guidelines for warring would be fantastic.  We (humans) like tangible, defined goals that are reachable and setting goals in a war system would not only help balance some griefing that exists in all pvp games, but give players a tangible point to aim toward, which would likely increase morale and ease burnout. That being opposed to what others have said the current system is, which seems to be 'attack until they give in'.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ok everyone, that's enough derailing for one thread. I know the war system has problems but those problems deserve their own thread. Lets keep our comments to the visibility of war and how to improve it or change it.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jonners said:
    Ok everyone, that's enough derailing for one thread. I know the war system has problems but those problems deserve their own thread. Lets keep our comments to the visibility of war and how to improve it or change it.

    I... thought that's what folks were doing?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Everyone is going on about how to improve the war system in general, I made this thread about a specific issue and the Bluj went and made a nice derail where he apologised for derailing, and then everyone went on about the derail rather than the OP.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
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