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Combat Balance Philosophy

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  • MilitisMilitis Member Posts: 56 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited July 2013
    I don't agree that Monk is the go to class for all of those categories.

    Maybe 1v1, that's a big maybe because BM is so dynamic and Jester is still a monster, just nobody doing it right.
    Need full Kai to argue for 2v2 but definitely a contender.
    I still think Occie is best raid class.
    Can come up with at least 3 better bashing classes without trying too hard. Numb is great but undependable, and transmute is cool for the first 30 seconds when there is mana to spare. Hi leather armor? Shit hurts compared to...anything really.
    NimDartega
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,579 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Naisar said:
    • Once again, axk provides a massive burst damage nuke with the same requirements as bite & bbt but doesn't hinder your allies (could be wrong on this one.  It doesn't, does it?)

    You were right, only one person can bbt/bite (thus multiple dragons got nerfed hard) within a certain window (something like 2.5s), but infinite number of monks can AXK the same target.
    image
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Santar said:
    Cooper said:
     I'm also glad that some classes are geared towards melee raids, 1v1, group ranged combat, group defense, group offense, hindering, or damage. It adds flavor and variety.
    Problem is that there's currently one class that's the best at basically everything in the game. Best 1v1, best 2v2, best raiding, best bashing. 
    Jester, right?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    NimAepas
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,529 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Santar said:
    I've heard from multiple Dragon Monks that they bash faster in Monk than in Dragon.
    i'm an artied dragon/monk and I disagree with this. You will gain experience faster in monk, but you will gain gold and kills faster in dragonform by a considerable amount.

    Militis
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,630 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daslin said:
    @Naisar stop being batman, and you won't get stomped.
    image

    I'll take being Batman anytime. I mean, I've been watching this gif for over 15 minutes and I still don't see Bane killing Batman. Like those logs of someone tanking four BBTs in a row.

    Clearly, like the rich playboy that Batman is, one just needs plenty of money to get fully artied out.

    Sylvance
  • MilitisMilitis Member Posts: 56 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Justify why a leather wearing class is the best bashing class? I'm speaking from experience and am unartied. Having to run every other combo from 2 Vertani doesn't directly correlate to what I consider "good bashing". Get risky and use numb, good chance of miscalculating damage taken, die, completely waste 2 hours of hunting. Doesn't Magi have it better? Sylvan? Any one of the knights?

    Try and look at the unartied side of the class because nobody is getting permamangle without knuckles, nor are they killing anybody because of it without lvl3 knuckles, the damage isn't enough. Choking for 40%(lol) without multiple lvl3 artefacts and a specific racial build just isn't possible, same goes for anything close to a 70% AXK.

    Being able to chain Kai abilities prone is something of the past, not enough gained...didn't get enough Kai for even Boosting(below 15) in several recent spars.

    Not saying the class isn't great, I love it. Seems to me this only happens when people artie out and get good with a class...said class is claimed to be ridiculous and overpowered. Simple fix; stop fighting the artied Ashuran Monks haha.

    Daje, Mizik, and I were Jesters around the same time period..I remember a bunch of forum crying about them being OP...not much is different with the class..it has actually gotten better, yet nobody even considers them as a powerhouse anymore. Why? Nobody is Jestering well at the moment. Laugh all you want but the same can be said about several classes. 

    Your posts sound like this to me: I have been essentially 3 shotted by a heavily artied Magi holo/harms/Stormhammer. Nerf plz. But you aren't crediting the extreme damages to artefacts, only the class itself. Blame me for derailing the original purpose of this topic if you feel the need, even though it was Jovolo, but I'm sticking up for the unartied portion of the class that still has their work cut out for them.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Monk might not be the best bashing class at lower levels. It is far and away the best bashing class at high end (100+) levels. The speed of hits directly translates into more criticals, and you're going to kill things faster than any other class simply because you're going to be critting significantly more.

    I won't comment on Monk combat because I don't really have any idea what it involves, but I think most people have a problem less with Monk damage, and more with artied Ashuran Monk damage. It might be more of a problem with blunt Icon tuning and less of a problem with the class, though I'm sure there are things people would find to complain about the class in general (c/p for anything, really).
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    JhuiKyrraNemutaur
  • EchaldEchald Member Posts: 281 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The change to stance has also contributed to make monk hunting even slightly faster and a bit less draining. The lack of armor and good resistance skills might make it less ideal to beat up on the bigger guys without proper health arties, and perhaps even an armband to miss death knights less, but from what I heard all the pro-hunters says, efficient hunting is much more about killing a larger amount of smaller things faster
    MilitisSherazadSimolnNemutaur
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Militis said:
    Justify why a leather wearing class is the best bashing class? I'm speaking from experience and am unartied. Having to run every other combo from 2 Vertani doesn't directly correlate to what I consider "good bashing". Get risky and use numb, good chance of miscalculating damage taken, die, completely waste 2 hours of hunting. Doesn't Magi have it better? Sylvan? Any one of the knights? Try and look at the unartied side of the class because nobody is getting permamangle without knuckles, nor are they killing anybody because of it without lvl3 knuckles, the damage isn't enough. Choking for 40%(lol) without multiple lvl3 artefacts and a specific racial build just isn't possible, same goes for anything close to a 70% AXK. Being able to chain Kai abilities prone is something of the past, not enough gained...didn't get enough Kai for even Boosting(below 15) in several recent spars. Not saying the class isn't great, I love it. Seems to me this only happens when people artie out and get good with a class...said class is claimed to be ridiculous and overpowered. Simple fix; stop fighting the artied Ashuran Monks haha. Daje, Mizik, and I were Jesters around the same time period..I remember a bunch of forum crying about them being OP...not much is different with the class..it has actually gotten better, yet nobody even considers them as a powerhouse anymore. Why? Nobody is Jestering well at the moment. Laugh all you want but the same can be said about several classes.  Your posts sound like this to me: I have been essentially 3 shotted by a heavily artied Magi holo/harms/Stormhammer. Nerf plz. But you aren't crediting the extreme damages to artefacts, only the class itself. Blame me for derailing the original purpose of this topic if you feel the need, even though it was Jovolo, but I'm sticking up for the unartied portion of the class that still has their work cut out for them.

    I'm pretty sure people are referring to artied monks when they talk about monk as being OP. There are ways to nerf artied monk without nerfing unartied monk. For example, delete axk! If you aren't killing people with it, that wouldn't affect you.

    There's just no reason someone, artied or not, should be able to legbreak someone (making shielding/running impossible) and kill them unstoppably with less than 10 attacks. Personally, at least, I'm far less concerned about setups that require more prep and have more ways of being stopped.

    And I don't recall anyone ever saying Jester was OP when you, Daje, or Mizik played it unless it was in reference to Daje Jester griefing with Qashar...

    Jester does have a strong offense, mind you, but it takes far longer to prep for it than it does for a monk to prep and axk.

    KaraiMishgulGoggo
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2013
    just make AXK like BBT but with head damage

    If you axk with head damage it does the damage it is doing now.  Otherwise, it does a lower amount.

    Also, make cripple and choke stopped by prone.

    (we're on a buffing spree right now so give the other classes time to get in line)

    ( @tesha I was technically BM for that combat rankings )

    You guys are used to fighting artied Ashuran monks.  We roll bad fighters, but good mounted opponents are still tough as hell if they play it right (Earionduil).

    We scale with arties, have good range, and decent 1v1 (ashuran great 1v1).  We should be the model not the nerf.

    edit: and enfeeble stopped by prone
    image
    Exelethril
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,529 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Most people here are ignoring that unartied monks can barely kill people their same level/might.

    They also ignore the recent -MASSIVE- nerf to kai which makes it useless 1v1 for a large portion of classes, less useful in small melee and even raids.

    Monk is still a great class, but it's not even close to how strong it was a year or two ago. High end artie damage has been nerfed significantly, all of kaido has gotten more than one nerf, damage has gotten nerfed at mid/high levels, choke/crush have gotten nerfs, bbt has gotten nerfed, axk has gotten a nerf, etc. Back in the day, with 100% blunt fullplate and algiz I would get one shotted by 18 str monks with axk (hello @Tesha, hilarious how you complain about monks now when you realize what you played back then) from 100% hp.


    MilitisRheveSherazadNemutaur
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2013
    Welp it's a Monk thread now.  Whatever this conversation needed to happen anyway.

    Alright, running through @Militis's points.  I haven't bashed as monk for several years so I try to stay out of this discussion, but I can say that Sylvans are -ing awful.  Their attack is on a 2.7 second eq and has low dps to boot. Furthermore they burn through willpower (which is much harder to regenerate than endurance) incredibly fast.  Sylvans are really fat, sure, but they pay for it dearly. Anyway, moving on.

    As for permamangle, I just tested it with @Echald, who lacks knuckles.  I have 5.1k health in lesserform, and he was able to break a limb in two full combos just fine.  He has 13 strength and I'm wearing 89% blunt armor with algiz.  Each combo in Scorpion with nimble has a balance of ~2.1 seconds (according to Echald and Mizik) and did 990 damage to me.  Now, if he were to permamangle me, I would die eventually.  It would take awhile, yes.  I'm a medium-fat Runewarden, which is pretty damn fat by everyone else's standards.  Echald lacks an icon, knuckles, and has a tiny amount of strength (int monk I'm guessing).  Permamangle works just fine for unartied people, even those with low strength and no blunt icon and against fairly tanky opponents.

    Yeah, kai gain is a bitch now.  It's almost like kai is acting as a resource that you have to spend wisely on offense or defense.  Snide comments aside, most of us aren't protesting the frequency of kaido usage, but rather the circumstances.

    Jester has a bunch of really BS things it can do, I agree. I was one a week ago.  Saying that we shouldn't change X because Y is just as bad or worse is a fallacy, though.  All this means is that we should also take a look at Y.   If you think Jester needs adjusting, then grab a jester, do some testing, and lay out your argument for what should be fixed and why.

    The really extreme damage I get from axk I do lay at the doorstep of artefacts/blunt icon (what the ass is the percentage on that anyway?).  Axk is still off the hook without it, though.  The numbers I'm about to show you are from Echald (13 str, no knuckles, no icon) against me (89% blunt, algiz, 5.1k max).  In dragon, his axk combo did a total of 2897 damage, 56% of my maximum health.  In scorpion, the combo did 2958 damage. That is still a massive amount of damage considering the only requirements are for the target to be prone.  Can you imagine if I wasn't as fat, and Echald was actually spec'd for strength?  But let's assume for the sake of argument that monk damage without arties and icon is completely fine.  Take a look at my list earlier in this thread.  Not much of it can be lain at the feet of artefacts.

    Magi holocaust damage is a horrific comparison for this discussion.

    @Tesha Monks do have some weaknesses.  For example, they have poor mobility, lacking an escape skill and being forced to rely either on racial choices or riding.  But outside of these they're powerhouses, I agree.  I'm a little wary about how strongly worded your post is, though.

    Edit: Oh they also squish like worms on wet pavement when they're midbies.  But then again so does everyone, when they're a midbie.

    @Cooper The past being worse does not excuse the present being bad.
    WessuxTvistorTesha
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Jhui said:
    We scale with arties[...].  We should be the model not the nerf.

    I pressed the disagree button over this specifically and exclusively, not anything else!

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by scaling with artefacts, but the more effective artie bonuses are, the more likely they'll become "necessary" for actually competing - not to mention the more likely the system becomes more pay-to-win than it already is.

    And I don't pay to win. I'll win my text battles on merit of skill and technical know-how, not on how much money I feel like throwing at the game - or, if that's impossible, I'll go play a game where it's not.

    I'll pay for adorable cat ears, though, or the ability to refluff my character's weapon as a different weapon-type (like a blademaster who uses knives!!), or to be a french ashtani maid complete with maid powers, or for a trait that is literally just my character having red eyes. why does IRE not sell these things :(

    DaeirEarionduil
  • JhuiJhui Member Posts: 1,958 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    my b.

    I was mostly referring to the fact that we have our areas of advantage (assuming my nerf suggestions), and other classes have theirs.  I didn't mean artie-scaling
    image
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,529 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Naisar

    You realize that if a monk axk's you, they are off balance for a LONG time, right? Also, monks don't combo at 2.1s in scorpion (unless something has changed since I stopped playing much, which according to announce posts hasn't happened). Perma mangle without either extreme low hp and perfect comboing or artefact knuckles isn't possible. Sure, you might be able to double break, mangle, break, but then the person will stand up, and combos aren't enough to kill people.

    60% max health from an attack that 1v1 requires at least 1 broken leg and a roughly 6 second balance is not broken in the least, even at 13str. Also if you let even level 3 knuckles monk perma mangle you, you are playing wrong. Walls and tumble are there for good reason.

    The' guaranteed torso break double bbt' that you PM'd me is hardly guaranteed and requires a whole additional skill to be transed and is almost impossible for unartied monks anyway. And yeah, if you let yourself get all your limbs setup + torso you SHOULD die to a monk guaranteed. It takes a while for that to happen with proper hinderance.

    You guys are really mistaking a broken class for people that are heavily artefacted + perhaps icon+scimitar.

    MilitisKaraiSherazad
  • MilitisMilitis Member Posts: 56 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I'm far from pro at bashing so I'll take your word for it, also had a couple of recent discussions that lead me to believe the 3 chances to crit and ability to hit the next target mid-combo is super sick at 95+ so you win there.

    50-60% seems semi fair to me for a skill that requires target to be prone and takes away a Monks ability to do anything except throw a set of punches for the next 6 seconds. In that sense(and it normally is) unartied AXK is worse than BBT, at least you get balance back in a reasonable amount of time. Hasn't artied AXK always been a problem? I know it has because I remember Agathon being able to kill me with it off guarding. Simple fix is to scale it with head damage like BBT/torso or make it less affected by STR.

    Was just using Jester as a comparison, perhaps poorly. And with the changes to Hocuspocus, they need like zero prep to do some silly shit, but that's besides the point.

    I think it's because there are so many Monks, and now artied Ashuran Monks, that they are being overly exposed and thought of in a negative manner, see @Tesha for example.
    Daeir
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,404 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Scaling axekick with head damage might not be the nerfing bargain you guys are cracking it up to be. If you do that, then the monk has a double threat on his breaks. He has multiple different targets he can hit for the same massive damage, so you could break both and then you have the option of either axekicking/bbt.  I'm not sure how it'd play out in a real time fight between top tier fighters, but it seems like you'd be taking something away from Monk just to give them something back. From the tone in this thread, it seems like most people think Monks need a direct nerf to their damage, not this weird sort of sidegrade.

    Right now head damage isn't all that useful and can mostly be ignored, which is a point in favour of the defender. But by making this change, the defender would have to defend from an additional limb location and it would make it all the more difficult to account for all the various breaks and tactics.

    image

    Tvistor
  • MilitisMilitis Member Posts: 56 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Directly nerfing their damage is definitely not the answer...please see the log of unartied Infernal standing up after 2BBT/AXK with 16 strength.
    Jacen
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2013
    @Cooper

    Well I'm not a monk, but the balance cost I was told by Echald was 2.2 seconds, and Mizik said 2.1.  The combo command waits for all limbs so you can chase balance, while the salve applications are triggered. I haven't yet asked a monk that's unartied to sit down and mangle my limbs for as long as they can, so I cannot guarantee that people without knuckles can permamangle- all I have are the numbers I posted above.  I will do so when I get the chance and post the results.  Regardless of the unartied, I don't think that any section of the population at all should be able to achieve permamangle.  It wasn't an issue before stance was retained with movement, but now that it does it becomes a problem.  Tumbling simply doesn't save you unless rooms are prepared against the possibility with class-specific skills (piety/gravehands/runes), which clearly not everyone has access to.  Icewalls are not a solution because the monk doesn't have to allow you any before executing the permamangle.

    In 1v1, I do not think that a 60% axk combo is entirely unreasonable.  It is very high, though- higher than any other non-finisher in the game (I think).  Half of the reason I acquired Echald to test is because his damage is on the low side, and I'm fairly tanky.  The percentage only climbs upwards from the numbers I gave, and from there it very quickly gets unreasonable as previously survivable setups become deadly.  I don't think that breaking legs, enfeebling, and landing an axk combo should kill people, for example.  The prerequisites for that setup are simply much too easy to achieve and don't allow the defender an opportunity for counterplay.  Also, a 60+% prone nuke without the bbt/bite drawback is off the hook in group combat.  Backbreaker was changed so multiple people couldn't use it on the same target, and that does less damage.  I don't think that the extended balance cost of axekick justifies its boost in damage in that situation.  But we could simply agree to disagree on that point.

    Because this is now a monk thread, I'll lay out the setup I alluded to earlier.  It goes like this: A monk first prepares your torso and legs.  They then knock you prone and break both legs, preferably with swk.  From here it's necessary to tumble, or you'll die to any number of things.  When tumble begins, the monk throws a targetted prefarar handaxe to break your torso, lands two punches for damage, and mind commands to stop the tumble.  From here the monk lands a torso damage bbt guaranteed, which is fine.  Now, it's true that the second bbt is not guaranteed, as I noted in my PM to you.  A monk with a diadem comes very close to landing the second one even assuming perfect curing speed, and if the monk is intelligent enough to start this setup after a guarding proc you simply cannot cure fast enough to avoid a second action from the monk before you stand up - be that a backbreaker, an axk combo, or whatever.

    My problem with this setup is thus: the defender has no control over the preparation of their limbs prior to the setup, unlike many other monk setups which allow the observant defender to cure torso ahead of time and thus live.  So this setup denies tumble (which doesn't even guarantee life anyway) while simultaneously breaking torso so that it's too late to cure (you can cure torso ahead of the second leg, but you'll eat an extra bbt or just die to axk).  Exacerbating this is guarding, a two second stun that can be applied against classes that target limbs to make it impossible to cure out of fast enough.  All in all, pretty terrifying.  I've had it executed on me only once, for which I am thankful, and perhaps there are weaknesses that I'm not aware of.  I hardly claim to be the best or most knowledgeable combatant around, and if I'm missing something then please let me know.  But from my current position this looks like something I don't think should exist for any monk, unartied or not - the sheer speed and ease with which monks damage limbs means that I don't think three of them prepared should lead to something so close to a guaranteed kill (and can become one sometimes).  In fact I don't think that there should be guaranteed setups for anyone at all, but perhaps this is a philosophical difference.

    Edit: Fudged grammar
    Tesha
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bashed every class to 70, had the most trouble with early monk being both slow, inconsistent and the least tanky of any class pre-transmute. Even after transmute monk still remains fairly squishy until the higher levels, at which point it accelerates massively with the increased crit chance and ends up being a powerhouse. Sinking 200cr into a fire pendant will probably shave a third off your bashing time. I'm not even kidding. 2% makes THAT much of a difference when you roll the dice three times every bash.

    I wrote lots of stuff here about raiding and whatnot, but it pretty much boiled down to "monk scales too well with artefacts and is the easiest class to pay2win with", because let's be honest here, it is. Diadem and a collar makes your telepathy dps output increase by orders of magnitude, not to mention the increased hinder. Knuckles DRAMATICALLY increases Tekura's effectiveness at breaking limbs and bashing, probably more so than any other class bar Blademaster bands. They scale so well with artefacts in almost every way, and it's totally unavoidable. To be honest, if more classes scaled like monk did, I wouldn't play this game anymore. Achaea approaches Battlefield Heroes grade pay2win sometimes, tempered by the fact that combat requires an immense amount of skill to perform adequately (except telepathy which you can do-queue a standard combo for and bash someone to death within 15s).
    Militis
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,956 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nerfing monk burst damage seems like the best option, truth be told, possibly along with a cost increase on enfeeble. Requiring Monks to have momentum before going into a break chain seems like it would put their 1v1 offense more in line with other classes - for example, I would be fine if I died when they started their break chain with momentum like me being at 70% health, but currently they do not need momentum at all. Jumpkick doublebreak, double bbt damage is really, really high. Combine it with torso pressure until they apply and it feels pretty unstoppable.

    Regarding unartied monks, honestly, it seems like most that have trouble killing are just inexperienced. It is just so easy to die to a monk.

     i'm a rebel

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not that unartied monk is bad, it's just that artied monk is so much better.
    Simoln
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,404 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Unartied Monk has no trouble killing people. Iakimen had zero arties and no blunt penetration icon tuning and was still blowing through high tier people. He almost killed me when I was playing perfect defense, mounted, walls, doing everything I could, and I'm pretty heavily artied. 

    Axekick isn't a necessary component of either unartied monk or artied monk play.

    image

    TeshaNaisar
  • TvistorTvistor Member Posts: 2,900 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Fighting monks without a mount as serpent sucks so much.
  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    fighting monks without a mount as any class sucks so much.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

    JhuiSherazad
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,956 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It is not much better, even with an invincible mount. 

     i'm a rebel

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