Riding ReWork

Sylvance

So, those other two threads about mounts has rekindled my mount envy.

I was wondering if it would ever be possible to redesign Riding so that anybody can ride in combat (because it looks awesome and I want an awesome mount of awesomeness) but that the current balance is kept by having the classes that can't really fight mounted simply not get the mechanical advantages of being a-horse.

I'm guessing that the single biggest problem with this would be that some skills simply wouldn't make sense from horseback. Frankly, I don't know how to reconcile that within reason (i.e. not rewriting the description of every skill, or creating a new message that makes sense from the saddle).

This isn't a fully-fledged idea.

Help.

Antonius

Modifying a decent number of Riding abilities so they don't function for certain classes just seems pointless and a waste of coding effort. Nobody gets to have everything, I really see no reason to change anything.

Kresslack

If it's not broken, don't fix it. Not all classes make sense to be mounted in combat. Really, the only classes that do make sense to be mounted are Knight types (strictly speaking, Runewarden and Infernal). It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for any other class to try to use a mount in a combat situation.

Echald

Why Runewarden and Infernal but not paladin?

Cooper

Can you do me a favor Sylvance?

Every time you think of a new 'cool' idea to post on the forums, ask 5 people in game if the idea sounds okay first. If 2 or 3 say no, then don't post.

Thanks

Jovolo

....

Lynara

Jovolo said:

....

Complete agreement. Monks don't do mounted fighting, cos guess what? They do hand-to-hand combat. Blademasters would be hard pressed to pull a sword out and slash an enemy in the same way, while riding. Poor beast, it'd get cut. Etcetera. Those that can do it, can. Those that can't, can't.

Delphinus

If you can't do something while mounted, it's usually because it makes no sense to be able to do it while mounted. If you believe otherwise for a specific ability, classlead it.

What you're suggesting is that they put a bunch of balancing+coding toward an end result that makes less sense -- a result that is, at best, just as balanced as what we have now.

Sylvance

Cooper said:

Can you do me a favor Sylvance?

Every time you think of a new 'cool' idea to post on the forums, ask 5 people in game if the idea sounds okay first. If 2 or 3 say no, then don't post.

Thanks

It can't be that difficult to check the name of who posted the idea, and using that to decide whether you'll read it. Stop being a penis for a few minutes.

Xith

Sylvance said:

This isn't a fully-fledged idea.

Help.

What you should do is keep a record of all your idea topics like a Win:Loss ratio. I'm just really curious to see how it'd read so far.

But if something's not fully-fledged, fledge it. Or bounce it around in the Combat forum or somewhere before forcing Cardan to pass judgement.

Xith

@Daeir The reason some people are agreeing with telling her off is because there are half a dozen new ideas per day, and while concise posts occasionally get lots of thumbs up for their simplicity and all-around agreeability, vague and empty posts don't and they lead to 7 branches of discussion that don't really point the original idea in any productive direction.

The last part is that at the end of the day/week, the faithful administration has to read through these topics, and I think productivity has its place in this forum especially. We're talking about game improvements, and necessary changes for streamlining.

Casually suggesting a rewrite of a skill without going into much detail doesn't do a lot of justice to our time or theirs, or even the poster's.

I think Cooper may have been a little too snide and toxic with his advice. Personally, I was jabbing at Sylvance because she and I are known to be hit-and-miss with our unique combination of trolling and good ideas. And probably have Win:Loss ratios that reflect that.

And it isn't brave to run out onto the battlefield swinging a bladeless sword, Daeir. The other knights will laugh at you. Unless John Williams does the music.

Silas

Nobody cussed Sylvance out. Cooper's post, while maybe a little patronising, is good. This isn't an idea that should've been posted. If you have a half-baked idea, run it by other people first, flesh it out a little if it has merit, and then make a thread for it.

Jovolo

If everyone posted every crap idea they ever thought up with the forums would be cluttered with pointless, horrible threads like these. Cooper's post is GOOD advice, and certainly not "toxic and disgusting". Most of the time, she doesn't even post a fully fledged idea, just a random bad idea and asks everyone else how it can be improved. 

We don't want them improved because they are bad ideas. Sorry Sylvance.

Silas

If it was potentially valuable, I'd agree with you. I tend to think, though, that the overwhelming attitude on the constructive part of the forums (dais, scarlattan theatre) is pretty positive and welcoming.

Jarrod

Daeir said:

I'm referring more to the general trend than any explicit example in this thread. It's becoming a common theme with sub-par Dais posts that may otherwise contain valuable ideas. Either contribute to the idea by constructively and objectively demonstrating why it is a bad/subpar idea with your own experiences, or do the one-click wonder and leave the thread. Putting someone down for posting potentially valuable content in the form of ideas (however half-winded it may be) is a terrible paradigm to embrace and people should feel bad for perpetuating.

Perhaps you should stop trying to defend sub-par Dais posts, and instead encourage the posters to attempt to develop up-to-par Dais posts. If it's a 'hey think of this' idea, it's better handled on an OOC clan or in a discussion thread in another forum before coming here with a fleshed out idea. Doing this is also a great way to quickly determine if an idea is terrible, such as the current one is.


On topic, bring on mounted Evade, I could use the avoidance

Cooper

Daeir said:

This "cussing people out for being brave and posting their half-formed ideas on a public forum for opinions and refining" bandwagon is the most shit thing I've ever seen in my days on the internet and really, really needs to stop.

I don't give two flying fucks if you think it's a bad idea. Click the disagree button and go away, or post something constructive about the topic at hand (see: Antonius, Kresslack, Delphinus for examples of good posts) instead of berating someone out for attempting to suggest something that might end up being a valuable addition to the game after some community work-through.

This attitude is toxic and disgusting.

I find your attitude much more toxic and disgusting than mine in this thread.

Sylvance has a very long record of posting terrible ideas that are not thought out at all. It's like she (he?) thinks of an idea and then posts it as fast as they can without thinking it over at all.

Most of the time Sylvance posts an idea, she/he has already shot it down in the opening post. Most of them start off with something similiar to 'I know this isn't really thought out, and here are the reasons it is bad, including at least one of them which entirely breaks my idea and makes it not possible and dumb' and then it goes into the idea.

It would be much more productive if Sylvance actually thought the ideas out for more than two seconds and then posted them. I'm all about making the game better but this is a terrible way to do it.

Now go be a jackass somewhere else please, thanks

Cooper

Daeir said:

I'm referring more to the general trend than any explicit example in this thread. It's becoming a common theme with sub-par Dais posts that may otherwise contain valuable ideas. Either contribute to the idea by constructively and objectively demonstrating why it is a bad/subpar idea with your own experiences, or do the one-click wonder and leave the thread. Putting someone down for posting potentially valuable content in the form of ideas (however half-winded it may be) is a terrible paradigm to embrace and people should feel bad for perpetuating.

Follow your own advice. You put me down in an arrogant, rude and offensive way for giving Sylvance valuable content in the form of a suggestion to the ideas.

Sylvance

Well, after a few hours of feeling actually quite upset by the reception to this idea, I'll say the following:

1) One of life's great lessons is that, if you can get past the tone and your personal feelings towards the deliverer of bad feedback, even the least productive assessment can contain gems of usefulness.  So, thank you, @Cooper, for your honesty, although you could have made the point more constructively, and in a PM.

2) Yes, many of my ideas, on reflection, are not very good. However, some of them have been deemed good enough to be implemented as is. The Braggart trait, and the fact that messages now appear in NSTAT (come on, can't just be me that frequently missed them?), and the idea of checking score/stat not breaking meditation are all due to my input. To the community at large, I lay this challenge: Are you prepared to suffer lots of bad suggestions in order to receive a few good ones? I would like to think that, yes, you are.

Whatever the case, here's my pledge to be more meticulous and selective in the posting of ideas. I will, indeed, take up the (excellent) suggestion of sounding them out at people before putting them to the forums. But let's be honest, from time to time a terrible one will slip through the net. If you're not comfortable with that, then I'll understand if you choose not to read any more threads that I start.

I'll take some solace from the fact that the strength of opinion expressed on both 'sides' of this debate means that there are folks who love Achaea as much as I do.

PS - Sorry I called you a penis. You are not a penis.

Sarapis

I would prefer not to see people slamming other people for posting ideas. If you don't like the idea, just hit disagree and move on. It's an idea, that's all. No need to squash anyone's enthusiasm by going after the poster rather than the idea. 

Kresslack

Sarapis said:

I would prefer not to see people slamming other people for posting ideas. If you don't like the idea, just hit disagree and move on. It's an idea, that's all. No need to squash anyone's enthusiasm by going after the poster rather than the idea. 

I agree with this, but when an idea is posted in this section someone makes it available for discussion, as well as criticism.

Jarrod

@Sarapis wasn't saying don't criticize the idea, he was saying don't attack the person like various people have done in this thread, mainly Cooper.

Kresslack

Kind of seem like saying both. But regardless, I agree about not harassing a person for posting an idea. If you don't like it, disagree with it and state a relevant reason why you do not thing it would be practical.

Jarrod

I believe that's the difference between, "This idea is stupid." and "Here are a few of the problems that make this idea a bad idea in my opinion."

Kresslack

Yes, that distinction is fairly obvious. Or at least, it should be.

Xith

Everyone's intention, I think, is to try and maintain a level of quality in this holiest of forums. Don't want to spoil a good thing by overdoing the idea spam and force Their hand in passing rules and guidelines because of a lack of common sense.

(Coincidence that this is on Sylvance's topic. Really targetting any guilty party, myself included.)

Taraus

Actually, on the topic of riding, I'd like to see other stuff added for flavour and flair. Not useful in combat, but in terms of 'showing off' with a mount.

Stuff like...

rear

Carefully balanced upon (his|her) steed, Rider tugs back on the bridle, causing (mount) to rear back in an intimidating display.

or

prance:

A (mount) begins to high-step and prance, Rider controlling the playful dance by tugging expertly on the reins.

or (for winged/flying mounts)

unfurl:

With a prompt from Rider, a (mount) suddenly unfurls it's massive wings in a showy flourish.

Echald

I propose that the tekura horse stance receives a bonus when you are mounted, especially if your mount is also a monk.

Nim

@Taraus: There's no reason you can't emote those things, though!

Maybe what you want is a HORSEMOTE, which makes emoting with your horse easier.

all mounts are horses, especially giant ants.

Korben

Nothing kills idea output faster than vicious criticism. It's better to have someone that submits a torrent of ideas, with many of them so-so or bad with a few good ones mixed in, than having that person not submit any ideas at all.

Silas

It'd be nice for one of the emotes suggested by @Taraus to be put in and act like the staredown emote. So if, for example, you rear somebody on a medium horse while riding a legend steed, their horse shrinks back in fear.

Lynara

Taraus said:

Actually, on the topic of riding, I'd like to see other stuff added for flavour and flair. Not useful in combat, but in terms of 'showing off' with a mount.

Stuff like...

rear

Carefully balanced upon (his|her) steed, Rider tugs back on the bridle, causing (mount) to rear back in an intimidating display.

or

prance:

A (mount) begins to high-step and prance, Rider controlling the playful dance by tugging expertly on the reins.

or (for winged/flying mounts)

unfurl:

With a prompt from Rider, a (mount) suddenly unfurls it's massive wings in a showy flourish.

emote (With a prompt from,) $mountID suddenly unfurls it's massive wings in a showy flourish.

Now. Cos everything that exists needs GMCP added. Can we get 'mounted' added to gmcp tags? Or is it already a tag? Y'know, like the 'l' and 'L' attributes for wielded left/right... we could get something like 'R' or 'M' for something you are currently riding?

ETA: For those who don't understand, this is so you can then just 'know' what mount ID you are on, scriptably, and save yourself the trouble of changing it in your emote each time. Or, y'know, add '$mount' as a 'special' thing you can target.

Also, I see this particular idea being off-topic within this thread. Didn't think of that at first, lol. Great idea, needs it's own thread though.