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Change to Collar of Lupus (and mount killing in general)

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  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Sylvance said:
    Yes, if people are rolling alts just to do things like killing mounts, then there is a different problem, which needs to be dealt with differently.
    Deal with it how ? They're throwaway alts, so shrubbing is not effective. IP banning may or may not work, and even if it does there are ways around it.

    The amount of damage a throwaway alt can do needs to be minimized. That's the only way to fix this particular problem.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2013
    Korben said:

    Sylvance said:
    Yes, if people are rolling alts just to do things like killing mounts, then there is a different problem, which needs to be dealt with differently.
    Deal with it how ? They're throwaway alts, so shrubbing is not effective. IP banning may or may not work, and even if it does there are ways around it.

    The amount of damage a throwaway alt can do needs to be minimized. That's the only way to fix this particular problem.

    Well, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I'm guessing that they're people with existing characters. So why not shrub their main instead.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2013
    That would require them either registering their character, or using the same IP address as they normally do to be effective.

    Edit: Not to say there's not other solutions.

    The point of this idea is to prevent rare things in Achaea from being 'holy crap hoard this so nobody knows it exists' and more 'this is freaking sweet, let me show it off'. Like people have said in this thread, rare mounts, if you can't collar them, are a huge liability to take out where people can see it. Even if you're 100% paying attention, it's entirely possible your mount could be killed very quickly if someone wanted to, and with the way mounts drop on logout/death, it's even more so. I'm not proposing that any solution I listed, even with time tweaks, is the best solution, simply that mounts in general should not be a 'one and done' situation.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    That would require them either registering their character, or using the same IP address as they normally do to be effective.
    You saying that people switch IP addresses to make lolalts? I guess I'm underestimating the effort that people will put into being twats.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think you drastically underestimate the ease with which you can change your IP or access wi-fi networks.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Okay, how about introducing a minimum level/hours played/whatever at which you can attack a loyal mount?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    Kyriella
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2013
    Sylvance said:
    Okay, how about introducing a minimum level/hours played/whatever at which you can attack a loyal mount?
    That would probably help (at the very least it couldn't be done on a whim, it would take some time/planning), but it's not just throwaway alts killing mounts, plenty of established players do it as well.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Sena said:
    Sylvance said:
    Okay, how about introducing a minimum level/hours played/whatever at which you can attack a loyal mount?
    That would probably help (at the very least it couldn't be done on a whim, it would take some time/planning), but it's not just throwaway alts killing mounts, plenty of established players do it as well.
    Fair enough, but if established players are doing this and then having to deal with any consequences that come with it, I really think that that's something that ought to be censured more organically.  Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have, so I'll gracefully bow out at this point.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • DakloreDaklore Member Posts: 804 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I remember when I got legendsteed in riding. My first thought then was, "okay, this is useless until I get a collar." Because that kind of investment and having someone just kill it because they could--or even after I died--was just dumb to me. Still is.

    So I scrounged and scrounged for real months, and finally earned enough for a collar. Got my collar, got my legendary steed... within 24 hours it was killed by raiders. After I had died.

    So... yeah. I got my monies worth then, but still, not being able to use a mount because it could be killed ... because for some of us, 150K is still quite an investment(I don't like to bash, therefor, I don't make 150K in a day or two >P)
    image
    When Canada rules the world,
    things will be... nii~ice.
    BlujixapugMazothHaldonMelodie
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,352 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This reminds me of how the racial balancing changes greatly devalued the Gem of Transmutation like two years ago-ish. As @Santar mentioned, it might be slightly unfair on current collar owners who purchased collars for the sole intention of avoiding mount killing ass-hattery. 

    I think it would be fair if a partial or full refund was offered for current collar owners.

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  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It could actually be cool if Mhaldor's stables would resurrect your mount into "an undead skeletal steed", Ashtan's into "a chimaeric equine", stuff like that. If someone killed your fire-maned, diamond-hooved unicorn from the Bazaar, you would lose that unique mount (unless you had it Collared). But it could be resurrected into a generic city-specific mount, so you would still be able to use the Riding skill.
    image
    Daslin
  • EchaldEchald Member Posts: 281 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    There will need to be a non-city version of it which produces 'a generic creature you can mount'
    Sylvance
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Echald said:
    There will need to be a non-city version of it which produces 'a generic creature you can mount'
    A siren?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    DaslinEchaldArditiLynara
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It could actually be cool if Mhaldor's stables would resurrect your mount into "an undead skeletal steed", Ashtan's into "a chimaeric equine", stuff like that. If someone killed your fire-maned, diamond-hooved unicorn from the Bazaar, you would lose that unique mount (unless you had it Collared). But it could be resurrected into a generic city-specific mount, so you would still be able to use the Riding skill.
    My only problem with this solution is it would only address the issue of the cost of getting Riding, and would do nothing to handle the issue of rare mounts currently being a liability without a collar to use.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    KyrraLynaraShirszae
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Collar of Lupus: 250 credits

       - ATTACH <collar> TO <mount> that is loyal to you, excluding chimeras

         and inflatable giraffes, but including falcons and snakes. Makes the

         mount reset to you approximately every 18 hours. Can never be killed

         permanently. *NEW: May be used with some customised class loyals

         (see HELP CUSTOMISATION for more details).


         ********************************************************************

         * NOTE: this particular artefact cannot be traded in at all.       *

         * NOTE: this artefact may be used exactly once and no longer       *

         * exists after it is used. It may not be removed or transferred,   *

         * nor may the now-resetting-to-you mount be traded or transferred  *

         * NOTE: This collar does not allow you to keep class loyals (such  *

         * as falcons and snakes) when quitting class. If, through some     *

         * error, your class loyal stays with you after quitting class,     *

         * please report this at once. The cost of the Collar will not be   *

         * refunded, nor will a new Collar be issued, so be careful!        *

         ********************************************************************

    ----
    250 credits is a reasonable alternative to a package pet (900cr), but when you have to get one for any legendsteed for it to be worthwhile and not a waste of money, it defeats the point of legendsteeds even costing that little. Plenty of us have had a gryphon or something at some point, but sooner or later something happens to it. Forget to feed it or it gets killed. And you're out 150k or more for nothing.
    Just as buying multiple ~25cr pets is a waste when you're saving up for a Collar of Lupus, buying a 250cr Collar sucks if you'd like to someday get a 900cr custom pet. Another instance where the artefact isn't as much an obvious savvy investment as a luxury.

    The best options I think are :
    - to lower the cost of the Collar
    - to change how uncollared mounts die/reset 

    How about a number of free resets based on the mount type?
    20 for legend, 10 for greaterwar, 5 for war, 3 for heavy, 1 for medium, 0 for others.

    I guess when it comes to class loyals and multiclass on the horizon, some of that functionality would change too.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Daeir
  • AnaidianaAnaidiana Member Posts: 833 @ - Epic Achaean
    Echald said:
    There will need to be a non-city version of it which produces 'a generic creature you can mount'
    Delosian stables - a mangy hack


    image
    SylvanceLerik
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    oh, and while this isn't entirely related to this subject matter, I do have a complaint regarding collars.

    Let us trade mounts that are collared.

    I know artefacts aren't normally tradeable, but mounts are a whole different thing. If the concern is that by making the collar artefact tradable, you'll reduce sales, then put in a transaction credit fee for trading them.

    I think the mount-trade/collecting Market in Achaea really suffers because you can't really have a mount without it being collared, but you can't trade them once you do collar them. 

    image

    MelodieXithKazu
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sylvance said:
    Yep, I get that this is entirely different from Old Theft, I just think that the suggested change is taking us down the same route of removing threat from the game. That said, I do recognise the points that you're making, and agree with them to an extent.

    In terms of requiring a corpse, I should have explained myself better, but I more meant you'd bring him a flesh sample before the mount dies, like a kind of insurance premium. Then perhaps you have to pay him for the vat space so that he can store it until  it's needed.

    Here's the thing on your final point: yes, each individual attack would be less devastating, but the increase in mount attacks overall is going to cost people more money in the long run.
    We are not having axlotl tanks in Achaea. Just no.

    Nim said:

    From a roleplaying point of view, it's weird that every single adventurer, denizen, and apparently even rat comes back from the dead, but faithful mounts just kind of die for good short of super magical artefacts.

    Does this mean that Lord Thoth sustains his entire domain solely on non-collared mounts?

    I was actually going to mention this. Mounts fulfill their purpose when some lolalt kills them but pretty much everything else gets to respawn?
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
    Lynara
  • EchaldEchald Member Posts: 281 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Well, guards don't come back either and say very dramatic things on the city channels when they die. Of course, their contract might includes a dying bonus paid by the piece.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Echald said:
    Well, guards don't come back either and say very dramatic things on the city channels when they die. Of course, their contract might includes a dying bonus paid by the piece.
    City denizens say equally dramatic things and appear again shortly thereafter. My guess is that guard contracts do not go beyond death. (At least not technically. Mhaldor's guards description and names specify they are undead, and will protect the city eternally or something to that effect.)

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Plus, if I'm understanding how guards are purchased, it's not like you have to train up new guards from scratch every time they die, you just sort of hire them from a magical bank of guards.

    If I continue to understand correctly, this magical bank is limited, so cities have a maximum number of guards they can hire.

    Therefore, the logical conclusion is that they're the same people, and when you hire a different kind of guard, it's still actually the same person, and the fees just cover any class/race/gender changes associated with it.

  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    I want to like and agree :(
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The issue with a flee skill is similar to the one Santar mentioned. If it just flees and recovers health, then for combat you can't reliably deal with the mount, because the person will just run and get it again. If there's a delay, then it's really no different than the other suggestions.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Sylvance
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Lemme bounce this one out:

    How about coding a distinction between combat mounts and non-combat mounts, with the former remaining exactly as mounts are currently, and the latter being unkillable, mountable prestige-pets that will panic and flee to stables the moment the owner attacks or is attacked?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You mean my <insert scary kickass mount here> will be useless because it's a 'pretty mount'? nothx
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    No, I don't like it either, but I like unkillable combat mounts even less
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I vote for PRAY FOR MOUNTVATION. Alternatively, playing a game of chess against Lord Thoth (played by an AI or something instead of a staff member, though) to get a mount back, but every time you lose, you have to pay one death's worth of experience.

    Sylvance
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